FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

[Caketime]

Wouldn't a JA that can be switched off and on solve the issue of dual tanking instead of a Trait?

E: Derp, should have read last post.

[Greatguardian]

The idea about Surcoat's Cover. I prefer not to waste it. When there is a time when its actually needed then I'll use it, it just seems worthless to cover someone when they don't even need it. The enmity boost is not noticeable imo.

Generally I find that "saving" buffs for the opportune moment is the easiest way for people to justify wasting it by not using it at all. Unless they sit at max MP, they are never going to benefit more by activating the ability later. The only exception would be when the Paladin just doesn't understand how to maintain functional MP levels, in which case they really should be spamming Cover for the MP refill as much as possible.

Think of it like the difference between only flashing when someone else gets hate, and spamming Flash on the timer. Same basic concept.

[Cursed]

Well its either a slight increase in enmity decay when a PLD is in party or all you other "tanks" are in for a RDM reality check lol.

Its easy to say "PLD is fine. y'all just suck". Probably coming from someone who takes 30 minutes to kill things in 2011 while everyone else is taking 1/3rd the time and has only ever used PLD to tank. But reality is even SE has admitted that the job is in serious need of some tweeks, beyond the changes they just implimented last month.

If PLD was "fine", the default tank, which it is suppossed to be, wouldn't be on the sidelines while classes that are suppossed to be purely attack based, tank. Voidwatch isn't enough content to encourage people to play the job. Aegis & Ochain & Almace shouldn't be the requirements for the job to have any involvment or necessity in the game.
Even with an Ochain and Aegis, a PLD will take considerably more dmg in situations such as Abyssea than classes such as MNK and SAM, and see much less of the mob's attention.

EDIT: As a PLD if you're not saving your buffs for the right situation, then you really do need to go back to 101 class. If you've never found a reason to save cover for that trigger happy blm or war in your shell then you just have no business saying anything about PLD lol. Sometimes you spam flash and sometimes you save it for just before a badly damaging tp move. If you've played PLD enough you get to know the cycle and routines of your enemy and can almost predict tp moves. Saving Flash for Tiamat after a touch down for example when you don't have any blms to stun and Ni for whatever reason isnt up. That's just one situation. There are hundreds more.

My post does sound a little insulting now that I read it. Not intended, had a long day at work and fought with the dumb ass IT people who work for me.
I hope you're not an IT person GG. that would just be too unforgivable.

[Greatguardian]

ITT: Assessments of Paladin's performance based in Abyssea.

Paladin is fine. Outside Abyssea. I don't care if you don't do Voidwatch, that doesn't mean Paladin isn't awesome at it. Limiting the scope of the discussion to the mid-game bridge event that's already over and caters specifically to casual players is fallacious at best, malicious at worst. People with half a modicum of foresight neither need nor want adjustments based on Abyssean balance.

As for need to save Cover for people who "take hate", that's not a big deal if my TE is capped and they floor their CE by taking a hit or two. Which, you know, they can do because they're not morons and have PDT gear to swap into. A black mage taking hate period when they have Enmity Douse is just silly. Protip, taking damage decreases CE.

Edit: I find myself significantly less concerned about actually dying the majority of the time, so Flashing TP moves has never been a big deal. I would rather keep my TE sitting at the cap, or wherever is most beneficial for it to be depending on who/what my co-tank is.

You're talking about safety, I'm talking about efficiency. I know my DDs aren't idiots, and will be capping hate at some point by doing their jobs properly, so I trust that they can take a couple punches in their PDT sets on purpose in order to lower their CE. I know myself and my support staff aren't idiots, so I hardly have to worry about saving Sentinel for a damaging TP move in order to keep myself alive. Cover in particular is simply an MP recovery tool as far as I'm concerned, and there's no point sitting on it when you're essentially throwing away free MP for every second that the timer is up and it's not being used.

And no I'm not IT, just CS.

[Cursed]

ITT: Assessments of Paladin's performance based in Abyssea.

Paladin is fine. Outside Abyssea. I don't care if you don't do Voidwatch, that doesn't mean Paladin isn't awesome at it. Limiting the scope of the discussion to the mid-game bridge event that's already over and caters specifically to casual players is fallacious at best, malicious at worst. People with half a modicum of foresight neither need nor want adjustments based on Abyssean balance.

Its not just based on Abyssea, although PLD missing out on the mainstream game action for over a year is enough greivance for the job to scream "WTF SE".
Even before Abyssea, PLD was on the decline. They had to nerf RDM, rather drastically to allow PLD some sort of merit end game. (BRDs were nerfed ffs... BRDS!)

As for need to save Cover for people who "take hate", that's not a big deal if my TE is capped and they floor their CE by taking a hit or two. Which, you know, they can do because they're not morons and have PDT gear to swap into. A black mage taking hate period when they have Enmity Douse is just silly. Protip, taking damage decreases CE. .

There can be, as there once were, a lot more consequences for someone other than the tank stealing hate. Spike Flail, crippling AOE moves such as Fulmination, Meteor spam, causing the mob to move in range of the rest of the alliance and cast something like GoH. It's not always a simple round of attacks. Abyssea and post-75 end game thus far has seen everyone forget about specifics like distance. I've been playing with the same people for years as well, and you would be surprised just how often I have to tell them to keep 20 distance from me when im tanking. Becayse Abyssea has put the Noob back in them. While more often than not, someone else getting hate off you isn't that damaging (because mobs are just weak today), it sometimes causes a lot more dmg than just that single target (idiot) hitting the floor.

[Greatguardian]

The trend with Paladin is fairly apparent. The easier the content is, the less useful Paladin is. The harder the content is, the more useful Paladin is. It's not so much that Paladin was getting weaker before Abyssea, it was simply that the content that we've all been doing for years and years was getting easier to the players.

Paladin still excels to the point of necessity whenever the content is difficult, and it will always suffer whenever the content is easy. I don't think this will ever change.

[Cursed]

The trend with Paladin is fairly apparent. The easier the content is, the less useful Paladin is. The harder the content is, the more useful Paladin is. It's not so much that Paladin was getting weaker before Abyssea, it was simply that the content that we've all been doing for years and years was getting easier to the players.

Paladin still excels to the point of necessity whenever the content is difficult, and it will always suffer whenever the content is easy. I don't think this will ever change.

yup, Agreed.

[Economizer]

Okay, I'm not saying Paladin needs or does not need a job trait or ability that would decay enmity of people around it. That said:

It would really hurt dual tank situations (Which are there) to the point of nerf-level, especially if it was 2 PLD tanks, then both tanks would have their Enmity decaying. (unless it was specifically mentioned PLD's would not be effected, and im sorry if it was)

Specifically excluding PLD is a bad mechanic, as it makes PLD a better tank choice by nerfing other tank jobs that aren't PLD.

A job trait or ability that decays enmity of party members near the Paladin would be easy to implement in a way that wouldn't hurt tanks. Simply make it dependent on positioning like the way Thief has an improved crit rate when striking an enemy behind it or the way certain mobs perform certain weapon skills dependent of your positioning as in front of or in back of the tank.

This could be done easily by having it only affect jobs that are behind the Paladin or some other positional setup. Having a behind the Paladin Job Ability with limited duration would also help with SATA setups, and probably be the best way to implement the suggested enmity decay around a Paladin.

[Cursed]

Okay, I'm not saying Paladin needs or does not need a job trait or ability that would decay enmity of people around it. That said:



Specifically excluding PLD is a bad mechanic, as it makes PLD a better tank choice by nerfing other tank jobs that aren't PLD.

A job trait or ability that decays enmity of party members near the Paladin would be easy to implement in a way that wouldn't hurt tanks. Simply make it dependent on positioning like the way Thief has an improved crit rate when striking an enemy behind it or the way certain mobs perform certain weapon skills dependent of your positioning as in front of or in back of the tank.

This could be done easily by having it only affect jobs that are behind the Paladin or some other positional setup. Having a behind the Paladin Job Ability with limited duration would also help with SATA setups, and probably be the best way to implement the suggested enmity decay around a Paladin.

thumbs up. Good contribution.
Nice to read good some good posts after all the "waa waa give us berserker stance!" and the "y'all just suck ass" posts.

[NanoFox]

How about a job trait that works in the same fashion as Fencer but focus's on lowering delay time for main handed weapons?
or how about buffing the duration of rampart & sentinel to a 60 secs?.
just a thought..