[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Neisan_Quetz]

Your melee on stronger mobs doesn't matter.

[Duelle]

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful.

Magic Fencer =/= buff bot. That's for starters. We've had this conversation before, though, so I won't do a rerun of that discussion.

I've said it before, but being shuffled aside to solo old/weak content is an insulting way of saying, "You don't matter." It's not hard to figure out why such opinions have been formed, as we've argued the cons time and again, but if you want to argue such a dismissive play style boasts a meaningful longevity to any player... well, let's just say I'll argue against it and leave it at that. Nobody likes being excluded, and the unfortunate root of that problem in FFXI tends to lie in a lack of use. Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted or use it as an easy street to other-job loot, but the importance of RDM's conceptual package can not ignore its martial side like it has up until this point. Even the "Melee fodder, magic bosses" line is a farce if all you do or are expected to do is fight "bosses" with the job (Which is basically Voidwatch since you can't interact with outside mobs during a fight). Or in Abyssea's case, the inconvenience of making others wait to shift atmas around after farming pops.

Well said.

[Zirael]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of using Red Mage on JoL to be able to tank without engaging? I never got to see it in action myself, but that's how I'd always heard it explained.

You are right, I was talking about RDM being a tank, not meeling HNMs to death in particular.

[cidbahamut]

Is it hard to grasp that people want to play with others, not just with other people coincidentally around?

Do what Hyrist did for years and run with a group who's willing to accommodate your non-standard style of play.

Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted or use it as an easy street to other-job loot

Or because they genuinely enjoyed the mage side of it. You keep leaving that part out and I wish you wouldn't.

[Ketaru]

I've said it before, but being shuffled aside to solo old/weak content is an insulting way of saying, "You don't matter."

I fail to see why anybody in this game should think their opinion matters more than anybody else's. A certain subset of people are looking at this DEV announcement and looking at it as if it's some moral failing on those for frontline and a losing battle for those of backline. In the end, this is what they have decided is to be. And so I go back to my last question? Is anybody going to quit over it? Probably not.

Wanting to play with others is all well and good, but whose approval are you looking for really? Your friends that will probably let you do whatever you want anyway so long as you can prove you're not idiotic about it? Pickup parties- the groups in this game that prove time and time again to be of questionable quality? Power players that have always systematically excluded certain jobs? Forget the last group. They're the ones that put jobs like SAM on a pedestal for years, then quickly relegated it to loluselessinabyssea status as soon as it proved to not be optimal. They're not going to stand up for any job on principal alone, which is what the melee-update-for-RDM advocates are all about.

In fact, treating RDM as any other meleer, it's really no different from what's going on right now where we've got a tank/DD on the target and nothing else. Just a bunch of DRGs and DRKs standing around because they're just another unit feeding the mob TP and another unit that needs to be healed. The fact that damage dealer jobs aren't even allowed to perform their main function in an optimal setting should tell you that the current game design has bigger problems that RDM not being allowed to melee is only a small part of.

A melee update is an improvement on the job (so long as its not a nerf...it shocks me that some of you would even ask for this) that people should just accept gracefully. Yes, even the backline-only people. It's not like that side of things has been ignored seeing as the Job Manifesto explicitly states future updates are going to be in the Enhancer/Enfeebler direction. But it's naive to even ask for a melee update so strong that people will ask RDMs to melee higher tier NMs when not even the more traditional melee jobs are not allowed to do it.

[Seriha]

Sorry, but I'll see WHMs with an identity crisis when applied to most practical applications of the "mage" RDM. You can try to argue until you're blue in the face about how every RDM solos hard crap or that it's also practical, but it's not. It's a job I've seen plenty get burnt out on or outright try to avoid playing doing old endgame where all that was demanded of them were cures, refresh, haste, and maybe the occasional chainspell stun.

[Hyrist]

A melee update is an improvement on the job (so long as its not a nerf...it shocks me that some of you would even ask for this) that people should just accept gracefully. Yes, even the backline-only people. It's not like that side of things has been ignored seeing as the Job Manifesto explicitly states future updates are going to be in the Enhancer/Enfeebler direction. But it's naive to even ask for a melee update so strong that people will ask RDMs to melee higher tier NMs when not even the more traditional melee jobs are not allowed to do it.

And that's really that point right there. That other Melee Jobs do not melee on the monster.

Now if Red Mage gained a utility that would allow for this, then I'd be in support of encouraging Red Mage more in the front lines, because it would help other Melees do their job better.

However, I'm more in support of just expanding the horizons of what they can melee on acceptably, through performance increases and utility. I'm not expecting to Melee High Tier NMs, and if players are wanting to do that then they're best fitting with a group which will allow for that playstyle.

However, I'm not expecting a class-rewrite to accommodate desires of bringing Red Mage to the front lines on HNMs. As far as creating a new unique role for Red Mages for HNMs, there should be no issues really in giving Red Mage better spells that assist with this.

The "Anything That matters" Argument is really false. Because honestly, every fight matters, no matter the difficulty or 'tier'. Every battle usually has a purpose behind it, even if it is just personal enjoyment. My only request is that melee is elevated beyond the simple 'toy' phase to be more acceptable in events that contain a good deal of cannon fodder. Battlefield content like Walk of Echoes, Dynamis, or any other new or current updates they wish to add.

Through, right now. the biggest challenge in the game for me, is getting into it.

*grumblebillingwithclicktobuygrubmle*

[Economizer]

We've been clamoring for more effectiveness in melee (Just give us a magic elemental WS for F's sakes!!!!) and instead we're getting shoved to the back line permanently.

I looked through this entire thread and not a single person corrected this. Red Mage not only has a magic elemental WS, they have access to the best magic elemental WS, and on top of that, they (ignoring sub) arguably have the best stats for this WS.

Aeolian Edge is incredibly powerful, and hardly affected by damage rating of your dagger if at all. That said, Red Mage gets access to the best daggers available, although you may have to stick to a Blau for a while until you can acquire one of the slightly harder to get ones.

In addition to providing Red Mage with solid weapon skills, daggers attack more often (great for enspells) and have the same amount of skill as Red Mage has with a Sword, unlike other classes that may end up resorting to a Dagger to augment damage.

In addition, you can solo farm in Abyssea like no other job can, since you can Phalanx yourself, cure yourself, and even get a combination of Azure and Amber lights. How's that for melee? Maybe you won't be able to solo the NMs, but taking on thirty easy prey mobs at once seems pretty bad ass to me.

Perhaps this isn't what people mean by melee (is a non-empyrean sword really necessary to qualify as RDM melee?) but it is very powerful. Red Mage always has and always will have some sharp tricks up its sleeve, and a feather in its hat, for those who can earn it. The lack of a correction on this matter over ten pages of text makes me wonder though... for a traditionally backline job to melee, you have to want it, and not knowing your abilities shows a distinct lack of care.

[Supersun]

I'm genuinely curious to hear what these "plenty of other ways" are, and Cure IV doesn't count.

I know I've made a post about this in the past and that was only scratching the surface of possibilities

Actually I'd just ask why the Red Mage isn't using Light Arts and Addendum: White, but that's just me.

Though this may be a slight assumption, but if you are saying that a Rdm with Light Arts and Add White should heal better then a Sch then are you saying the reverse is true as well?

A Rdm can't nuke as well as a Sch using Dark Arts and Add Black. It'd be weird if they couldn't considering that they aren't able to be as flexible when switching between light and dark.

What makes healing the exception on Rdm? Why should a job that has to limit his spell selection to cure, not be as efficient as the job that has everything at the same time?

Certainly the aesthetic that Red Mage gets cures a few levels earlier then Sch shouldn't be the entire basis of your argument.

[Supersun]

Edit: Bah, my bad on the double post

Red Mage not only has a magic elemental WS, they have access to the best magic elemental WS

We have access to Wildfire?

Joking aside it would be slightly easier to justify the use of Aeolian Edge if we had access to the TotM daggers. Sure, we can AE decently with the martial knife but our melee DoT then becomes worse then a KClubbing Ranger and the Ranger will feed less TP too.



That was sarcasm though not that far off from the truth