[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Seriha]

Heh, at least WHM/NIN can main-hand a damaging weapon. Working on my 2-4x scythe was utter hell on DRK since not far into it its delegated to a D40ish weapon that off the bat tends to put you against mobs level 65+ outside of Abyssea. Got more tolerable once it could actually mult-hit, but before then... ugh.

[Economizer]

Why Scythe? Most Dark Knights I've seen go for the Great Sword (Which shares a surprising amount of trials with the multihitter Club) for whatever reason, I figure its so they can also use the weapon on Paladin.

[Seriha]

I had a few reasons. Skill up weapon for later dates, possible SEBW zerging, and as the main weapon for a good atma/gear build for Infernal Scythe, Endark is also boosted to 70+ a whack, too. WSing and having enough TP to WS again after 1 round isn't impossible, either. Sure, a near-guaranteed 2k+ WS might not be the epeen of other crit-fueled ventures, but the speed you can crank them out counts. Herc Slash is the better WS, sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if those people also had PLD on the side, but I haven't jumped toward that trial if only because I'm not looking forward to mass amounts of gnats and ladybugs. Someday. Maybe. x.x

[Economizer]

I'm not looking forward to mass amounts of gnats and ladybugs.

I don't know what the NM stage for that weapon is like, but killing Stray Mary x3 was harder then fighting the gnats and ladybugs. If you can get a friend to help, you can do them in Abyssea, but I did both outside. On Ladybugs, I teamed up with a Dark Knight with the Great Sword for much of it, and on Gnats, I worked with some LS members doing random vermin trials or just plain helping. The Gnats were worse, but not too bad. I'm currently working on Qiqirn, which I currently deem worse then Gnats. Because Gnats just try to kill you. Qiqirn run.

[Seriha]

Heh, true enough. My luck with chancing upon random people working on the same trials was never that great, though.

[Hyrist]

Actually Seriha, I leveled Rdm as a mage job, and I enjoy playing Rdm as a mage job. As mentioned above, you seem to ignore that some people actually enjoy the mage side more and would be happy being a pure mage.

Yet, on the same notion, the job's archtype has it functioning as both, and yet you choose to ignore that concept when you approach the job as a 'pure mage'.

I mean, fine, Red Mages in their previous iterations could equip staves/wands and other mage types if that's the way you wanted to play it.

But back in those days Red Mage was out-shined by other more dedicated casters, even Scholar, who worked in different schools of magic just like Red Mage did. The melee aspect was what kept it unique in this case (though the double-cast concept also assisted this when it was added on later.)

There's no reason why either of these aspects should be neglected. Though, honestly, the steriotypes go into both directions.

I've no problem with a SUPPORT caster Red Mage. I've a problem with the job getting pigeon holed into a psudo WHM role. That's not what it's there for, sorry. If you want to give it some healing capacity so it can split the healing duties with some other job that's present and go sans WHM, that's fine, but to try to make it a solo healer, I've got a problem with that.

What Seriha puts to light is the fact that many Red Mages who did like the Mage aspects of the job leveling up, did not do so with a unique concept of the job in mind. Rather, they preformed very much like White Mages with a superior MP endurance and Refresh.

This brings the same two questions to the Mage Side of Red Mage, as is presented to the Melee Side.

Why do you play Red Mage as a backline caster?
Would those reasons not be better suited by another job.

In the case of those who chose RDM as a support caster, right now, Scholar fills that role better. Granted, scholar can be a specialist if it chooses to be, but that only influences the fact that it would be more desirable all around. Where as Red Mage really... has Refresh II, and Chainspell to its credit. The rest are just out-shined or, in a sorry state of affairs, like our enfeebles. Not enough of it melds into a solid role anymore and Red Mages are simply accepted because they are more available.

But the point of them being populated this much, was really contributed to Refresh whoring in the early days, and the psudo-WHM with the super MP pool in the ToAU era.

Back Line Red Mages have no set 'role' so much as they have two single target buffs to cycle, and then make like they're not actually useless and toss a cure in case the WHM is sleeping on the job or overtaxed. Sure, you can 'find things to do' to help contribute to the party more in that timeframe, but as the levels rise, the key reasons you're invited for, refresh and haste, become less important for you specifically to do, as Refresh I is already accessible Subjob wise, not to mention the massive amounts of MP restoration in the game now, and Haste is accessible /whm now, and will be /rdm at 99 cap.


So both of these aspects, Mage and Melee, need to be looked at and updated. And while there is a community that enjoys being back line on Red Mage, they may have to deal with the idea that the job as it may become in the future, won't necessarily be what they want it to be (For example, a capable solo healer.) In the same vein front line Red Mages have to coke down that they might not get as far or the specific role they want for their melee duties (I.E. Tanking.)

So all Red Mages, regardless of the camp they are on, are really going to have to re-evaluate what their image for the job is, and, instead of arguing at each other to say why their particular vision is wrong, instead try to focus on what feedback they should give to SE as to what updates they would want to see, to assist their particular vision for Red Mage, within SE's manifesto.

[cidbahamut]

For the love of God Hyrist, shut up about ye olde FF1. That antiquated image has absolutely no bearing on FFXI.

SpankWustler in FFXI is a mage. Deal with it.

This brings the same two questions to the Mage Side of Red Mage, as is presented to the Melee Side.

Why do you play Red Mage as a backline caster?
Would those reasons not be better suited by another job.

It bloody well would not.

[CapriciousOne]

I agree I prefer to be on the front line hacking and slashing as a RDM instead of on the backline curing. When i'm curing I feel like I'm not real contributing to the game especially when a WHM can clearly heal more mp at once and on multiple people. I never mind assisting a WHM keeping them refreshed and throwing in cures when overtaxed, I dont feel its my role to heal the whole party. I personally dont see the point of a partying if all i'm going to do is be on the back line healing gaining experience for practically nothing and still have most of my combat and magic skills falling behind in the process. I guess maybe I'm crazy for thinking that partying is supposed to allow me to improve everything in one fell swoop.

In any case because of the way this job is treated in parties I just accepted that there are just some parts of the game and missions and quests I will NEVER complete because of the attitudes toward the job and will complete all that I can solo or in small parties and say the hell with the rest and just quit afterward. I leveled RDM as a HYBRID MELEE job with the emphasis on melee where I can use magic as NEEDED. It is fine if one wants to neglect a huge part of a job but to fit in but I REFUSE TO DO SO and people act like something is wrong with me for doing so. Just becase my strongs weapon is only a B doesnt make me useless as I can still hit consistently and often as long as my skill is allowed to increase to what my acutal job level but that cant be done IN THE BACK and people complain and kick me out when I go to the FRONT, so why bother helping them at all I say? I'm not saying melee RDM is better than complete mage RDM (though it is and I dont see how they accomplish anything witout a party around but I digress) I dont knock anybody for how they play the game instead I try find a way to make it work. A skilled player can play any job in any fashion whether it is designed to be that way or not. Unskilled players cry and complain if things arent done a CERTAIN way despite there being more than one way to do things and still being successful. If it work for you stick with it and have fun until it no longer does I say.

Only other solution is for RDM that have a problem with the way things are just band together and abandon the others, LOL

[noodles355]

Yet, on the same notion, the job's archtype has it functioning as both, and yet you choose to ignore that concept when you approach the job as a 'pure mage'.

Why should I care what the job's original concept was? This is how I like playing it, and luckilly, how most other people like me to play it.

That's all there is to it. I am not going to stand in your way of saying "we want the melee side buffed". That's fine, do what you want. But suggesting that everyone wants the melee side buffed, or that anyone who doesn't is lieing to themselves or admitting defeat or something is just wrong. Simple as.

Why do you play Red Mage as a backline caster?

I wanted a backline mage job. I didn't want to purely be a healer. I didn't want to purely be a nuker. I didn't want to be purely a buffer. That leaves me with Rdm and Sch. I chose Rdm because at the time Rdm was more popular and also I thought they looked cooler.

Would those reasons not be better suited by another job.

If I was used as a dedicated healer or nuker, then yes. But 90% of the time I'm not. I'm there as support, and another job couldn't do it better because another job can't land enfeebles with the same accuracy or potency that I can.

When you look at the mage duities that exist, that are PURELY RDM duties. What you are left with are Haste, Refresh, and a handful of spells only available through meriting. WHM WILL have Addle, BLM DOES have Break.

I love how you can just dismiss Dia3, slow2 and Paralyze2 like that. The only other job that can cast a Slow effect stronger than ours is Brd, and guess what? they stack. We have the most potent paralyze. Guess what else? Dia3 is 15% Defence down that is up all the time, and that stacks with JA defence-down effects like Angon. No other job can do these. They are significant spells, and the fact that you just dismissed them so easilly without even acknowlegeing them as "a few merit spells" is completely idiotic.

[Hyrist]

What, by virtue of the almighty cure?

When you look at the mage duities that exist, that are PURELY RDM duties. What you are left with are Haste, Refresh, and a handful of spells only available through meriting. WHM WILL have Addle, BLM DOES have Break. Currently Scholar brings far more utility tools to the table, and will have the inclusion of Haste in the final level cap rise, subbing our job.

So that leaves chainspell stun, which isn't even a valid tactic in most endgame content anymore.

So yes, the question is presented: Why Red Mage? That's just a valid question for the Back Line as it is the Front.

And honestly, how many people have hung up the hat and leveled other jobs during this time, because of the exact problems I've listed above? The job needs further definition. SE's answer to that, may not be what some of the previous base wants.

That was the grand total of my post, which you only skimmed.