[Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto] RDM

[Duelle]

It exactly follows the "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" approach that has been the Red Mages staple since people played it. I've said so many times before Duelle, but your approach to the job is too extreme.

Zirael's mind translation covers why nicely:

You will not be allowed to tank any HNM, if you try it using some nifty trick, we’ll cripple you even more, so don’t even think about it. Refresh/Haste/Gain-STR or GTHO.

Toss in "you also will never swing a sword at anything half meaningful outside of soloing/campaign" and you get how I interpreted that post.

[CapriciousOne]

I agree that their vision of this job and the reality of it is a big gaping hole between the two. For one it never made any since to me that spells like Haste dont have an aga version of it. As a matter of fact if RDM best magical is skill is Enfeebling magic why doesn all those spells have an AoE version of them that is RDM only? Same with Enhancing magic as well. I can understand a WHM having aga Cures but with the way people insist on making RDM nothing but a wimpy nurse(which is why i rarely ever party unless I'm really bored/impatient) then the least they could do is give enhancing AoE enhancing spells (Haste, Phalanx, Enspells, Regen, Refresh) to make life easier and they should be EXCLUSIVE to RDM if they ever do that but I would die holding my breath waiting on remove head from rear and wise up. If they did that I might even actually consider being a nurse more often especially if they took it one step further and allowed the effect of composure to be expanded to the party the ease the casting load since the spells would last longer.

As far as melee go I dont know what the big issus is with it beyond maybe more powerful weaponskills. I personally think the real issue is that the weapons base damage just flat out is garbage in comparison to say the two-handed great weapons. To be fair however I am lazy and dont have any of those weapons everybody makes a big deal about like Joy toy and what not nor have I done any of the quested weapon skill stuff either but as far as regular mob go i haven't had to many problems dispatching mobs until i've gotten with in 5 levels of my actual job level (85-90) then I start to wish I was doing more damage.

Personally as far as RDM melee goes and acutally all jobs I would like all jobs where their strongest weapons are one-handed all recieve Dual-wield. More specifically like NIN will most likely get a dual-wield 6 when all the caps are finally complete and that is fine but for other jobs the max DW trait acquired by the MAIN jobshould be as follows:

A Skill - Dual Wield 5 at max but at least Dual Wield 4
B Skill - Dual wield 4 at max but at least Dual Wield 3

This is regardless of the + and minuses in skill and would allow all jobs to contribute the physical demise of a mob. The DoT of spell cant compare to the Dot done by the physical weapon unless SE factors in more of your actual skill into the damage calculations which i seriously doubt they ever will. I guess I just hate knowing there is a weapon that isnt drawn and doing any physical damage to a mob even if it is just a little bit. In addition this will allow for more flexibilty in sub job choices for those who want to dual wield and not have to worry about losing the abiltiy to dual wield. Those who still Sword and board it can still continue to do so but at least u will have the OPTION of switching without losing the benefits of the sub job of our choice like the very popular RDM/BLM and RDM/WHM combo.

(Sigh) Then again give people unrestricted choices isnt exactly SE strongsuit now is it? One can only hope they will someday make a liar our of me.

[Seriha]

I feel like the hinting toward WS restrictions is probably the melee camp's biggest hope out of all of this. While another core argument remains in gear selection, I'm comfortable in saying that releasing appropriate gear shouldn't really be worthy of an update note, as such specifics have never really happened before. Just do it without locking them behind Voidwatch, WoE, or other such insufferable NMs nobody wants to fight JUST for a melee RDM and we'd be pleased.

Otherwise indifferent on our new "enspell" and would still like to see T2s fixed to be on-cast instead of on-strike. The whole enhancing/enfeebling concept still seems to be a bit of a head scratcher without more info, though, especially when you start comparing us to other jobs.

[Ketaru]

Toss in "you also will never swing a sword at anything half meaningful outside of soloing/campaign" and you get how I interpreted that post.

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful. If you like to do it, there is finally a place in the game that rewards you for doing so. If you don't like the way EXP parties bar you from doing it, you've got some place you can now. And you can still be part of the player community in doing so now that participation in Campaign has actually risen, as well as giving a modestly good amount of EXP now. And bonus, it is relevant again now that you can use Allied Notes to purchase items for Voidwatch.

You keep resisting Campaign as an option, yet you've already forgotten there was a time when Campaign was the most relevant system in the game. It was during the event's heyday that RDM got Composure and Enspell IIs (granted, the Enspell IIs ended up being a huge flop and Composure has received mixed opinions). People formed 3 hour long lines waiting for an opportunity to do the Campaign-enabled battles like Fiat Lux. Just this past weekend, I waited for 2 1/2 hours for a chance to do Plucking Wings. So I just don't get why you keep belittling it as if it's nonsense.

Hell, maybe what people shouldn't be asking for is a melee buff, but new events added to the game that cater to more free playstyles. You want to melee higher tier NMs like Rani or Shinryu? Well, short of Primeval Brew, it just ain't gonna happen. I keep saying that the game design as it exists now doesn't require RDM to receive a melee buff.

Maybe people should just let go of all their hang ups and stop letting other people dictate how they play their game. Short of a nerf, what is anybody going to do about it if RDM does/doesn't get a melee buff? Quit the job? Frontline and backline advocates don't have to answer that question cause you all know you're not going to do it.

[Supersun]

Am I the only one that was disappointed that not a single thing was mentioned in regards to cure V or even the aura affect on our enhancement spells? These two things alone will decide if its time to hang up the Chapeau for good or not... Yet all they talked about was enfeebles and mele... honestly rdm mele is a dead concept, you want to mele like a mele, level a mele job.

Make it possible to use Cure V.

In regards to support capability, we’re thinking more in the direction of adjustments that will differ from white mage.

Instead of just simply adding a high-tier Cure, we’re looking into making it so scholars can raise their performance further by enhancing the effects of stratagem use and regen-type magic. However, this doesn’t mean that we won’t be adding a high-tier Cure later down the line.

Add sphere-type spells.

For sphere effects, there would be no way of handling the opposite enfeebling effects, such as Slow versus Haste effects. This makes it an extremely powerful spell, so from a balance perspective it will not be easy to do.

I suspected these were pointed at as as much at Rdm as they were at Sch. (especially since they mentioned Gravity II which they then said was Rdm specific).

---

I also agree that I hope that instead of getting Cure 5 we get a more unique style of cure.

Adding Cure 5, regardless of balance implications, will do more to destroy the identity between mage jobs then any other single spell.

There are lots of unexplored alternatives to curing and I would be disappointing if SE decides to take the lazy way out and just stick the Cure 5 bandage on the job.

Don't get me wrong, we need some form of curative assistance since Blu can heal better then Rdm atm, but Cure 5 is like trying to remove a splinter with a chainsaw.

I feel that by adding Cure 5 it will have balance implications for the maximum power of enfeebles we will be given later on.

If we can heal almost as well as a Whm they aren't going to let us 'enfeeble like a Rdm' as well.

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Some might say that Cure 5 is the only alternative to safely keep a tank at full HP after a dangerous TP attack.

First off there are plenty of other ways to protect a tank from a follow-up after a dangerous TP attack other than Cure 5.

Second, should Rdm be able to do this by himself? Rdm isn't a Whm. Rdm isn't a healing specialist. I'm not saying Whm should be the only option, but Rdm shouldn't be Whm lite.

Rdm is a hybrid and if Rdm has enough healing power to primary heal entire alliances from these Super HNMs with deadly TP attacks and dangerous follow ups then frankly...the games too easy and/or there's not enough difference between Rdm and the specialist.

I don't believe Whm should be the only option, but frankly Scholar should be the second choice. Yes, Rdm gets cure spells a few levels earlier then Scholar, but Ranger also gets more accuracy bonus then any other job so clearly they are supposed to melee. I don't want to base a jobs entire performance off one little thematic snippet.

If you really want to debate thematics Rdm gets less cure potency gear then summoner, a job without a native healing skill. I mean realistically the most a Rdm is going to have is around ~30% with 3 pieces of gear. You know...I'd have to check it but even Pld might get more PC gear then Rdm.

Can you honestly say a Rdm should be out healing a Sch with Light Arts and addendum White?

---

Also, is it possible to separate the evasion down effect and the slows movement speed from Gravity II. I know there are plenty of monsters that it might be nice to actually have that evasion down effect from gravity except that the monsters immune to it because SE is to afraid of a kite solo.

I'd almost prefer Gravity II was just a more powerful evasion down effect without the movement speed reduction so it's actually useable on things where we need it instead of it just being the an extra safety net when Sleep, Sleep II, Bind, Break, and Gravity are all resisted on monsters that are easy enough to cap accuracy anyway.

Unless the devs actually feel like making this Gravity actually useful on tougher things...that would be welcome as well.

[Zirael]

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful. If you like to do it, there is finally a place in the game that rewards you for doing so. If you don't like the way EXP parties bar you from doing it, you've got some place you can now. And you can still be part of the player community in doing so now that participation in Campaign has actually risen, as well as giving a modestly good amount of EXP now. And bonus, it is relevant again now that you can use Allied Notes to purchase items for Voidwatch.

You keep resisting Campaign as an option, yet you've already forgotten there was a time when Campaign was the most relevant system in the game. It was during the event's heyday that RDM got Composure and Enspell IIs (granted, the Enspell IIs ended up being a huge flop and Composure has received mixed opinions). People formed 3 hour long lines waiting for an opportunity to do the Campaign-enabled battles like Fiat Lux. Just this past weekend, I waited for 2 1/2 hours for a chance to do Plucking Wings. So I just don't get why you keep belittling it as if it's nonsense.

Hell, maybe what people shouldn't be asking for is a melee buff, but new events added to the game that cater to more free playstyles. You want to melee higher tier NMs like Rani or Shinryu? Well, short of Primeval Brew, it just ain't gonna happen. I keep saying that the game design as it exists now doesn't require RDM to receive a melee buff.

Maybe people should just let go of all their hang ups and stop letting other people dictate how they play their game. Short of a nerf, what is anybody going to do about it if RDM does/doesn't get a melee buff? Quit the job? Frontline and backline advocates don't have to answer that question cause you all know you're not going to do it.

We were capable of meeling some endgame content in the past (Jailer of Love tanking and whatever not) but our balls were basically cut off, because we were putting PLD's flawed job design to shame. So in like 2 version updates RDM got kicked out from that niche we had back into Haste/Refresh bi*ch.
That leaves some sour aftertaste in mouth. Sure, we still live on, but can't hit on all the cute girls (HNMs) around anymore, because, what's the point?

[cidbahamut]

Some might say that Cure 5 is the only alternative to safely keep a tank at full HP after a dangerous TP attack.

First off there are plenty of other ways to protect a tank from a follow-up after a dangerous TP attack other than Cure 5.

I'm genuinely curious to hear what these "plenty of other ways" are, and Cure IV doesn't count.

Second, should Rdm be able to do this by himself? Rdm isn't a Whm. Rdm isn't a healing specialist. I'm not saying Whm should be the only option, but Rdm shouldn't be Whm lite.

No, RDM isn't a WHM, but it should be "good enough" so that it can fill in when the white mage is either face-down in the dirt or not online. WHM is in no danger of having its crown of Best Healer taken away, but I think we can all agree that we'd like to hurl a few rocks to knock off the one that reads Only Healer.

Rdm is a hybrid and if Rdm has enough healing power to primary heal entire alliances from these Super HNMs with deadly TP attacks and dangerous follow ups then frankly...the games too easy and/or there's not enough difference between Rdm and the specialist.

HNMs...with one healer. Hyperbole perhaps?

Can you honestly say a Rdm should be out healing a Sch with Light Arts and addendum White?

Actually I'd just ask why the Red Mage isn't using Light Arts and Addendum: White, but that's just me.

[cidbahamut]

We were capable of meeling some endgame content in the past (Jailer of Love tanking and whatever not) but our balls were basically cut off, because we were putting PLD's flawed job design to shame. So in like 2 version updates RDM got kicked out from that niche we had back into Haste/Refresh bi*ch.
That leaves some sour aftertaste in mouth. Sure, we still live on, but can't hit on all the cute girls (HNMs) around anymore, because, what's the point?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the point of using Red Mage on JoL to be able to tank without engaging? I never got to see it in action myself, but that's how I'd always heard it explained.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If your tank was engaged to a NM there was no point in having a Rdm tank. Unless your other tank was a bad Pld, I guess. Even then Pld still has higher skill than Rdm and access to better gear and same weapons.

[Seriha]

You know what? For the life of me, I will never understand why people like you think this is so shameful.

Maybe people should just let go of all their hang ups and stop letting other people dictate how they play their game.

Is it hard to grasp that people want to play with others, not just with other people coincidentally around? Sure, Campaign got an EXP buff recently (offensive battles still blow if no mobs are around, though), but once you're capped off on your merits, rank, and such, then what? It is unfortunately old content with little incentive going for it, and as an individual, your contributions don't really translate to much. Especially when the crux of Campaign progress tends to fall in those 10-12 hours prior to tally where a lot of people reading this are probably asleep or close to it.

I've said it before, but being shuffled aside to solo old/weak content is an insulting way of saying, "You don't matter." It's not hard to figure out why such opinions have been formed, as we've argued the cons time and again, but if you want to argue such a dismissive play style boasts a meaningful longevity to any player... well, let's just say I'll argue against it and leave it at that. Nobody likes being excluded, and the unfortunate root of that problem in FFXI tends to lie in a lack of use. Sure, some will gobble up being pure mage just so they don't feel time spent leveling wasn't wasted or use it as an easy street to other-job loot, but the importance of RDM's conceptual package can not ignore its martial side like it has up until this point. Even the "Melee fodder, magic bosses" line is a farce if all you do or are expected to do is fight "bosses" with the job (Which is basically Voidwatch since you can't interact with outside mobs during a fight). Or in Abyssea's case, the inconvenience of making others wait to shift atmas around after farming pops.