Job Adjustments manifesto Discussion

[Sparthos]

More dodging of the point. RDM has access to CDC which is the same high tier WS being used by PLD and BLU.

Either you work towards it or you dont. Sword has always been a soso weapon type in terms of doing damage anyway.

[Supersun]

To be fair that was also in part because a few swords were stupidly powerful and giving them better WSs would have been a real quick way to break a couple of jobs.

[Seriha]

CDC > Vorpal Blade > Death Blossom > Savage Blade > Fast Blade.

You can wiggle Sanguine Blade in above Savage at times, but the problem with the general chain of progression is that RDM lacks a native Vorpal (And Sanguine), DB requires 75+ and running a particular event, Savage is a quested WS, and Fast Blade of course being our first WS and basically the holdover until SB (We also miss out on RLB or Seraph Blade without a special sub).

These "mile stones" are like a series of steep climbs instead of a gradual progression. Yes, when you hit them, they may be effective to a degree, but the primary issue is the gap between the haves and have nots, and even the haves are scorned for reasons RDMs have been throwing at SE for years. I love how GG tried to slip in that cheap shot about how RDMs play is how SE has deemed to gear them because that's how we play, but as I've said before, that's a catch 22 or chicken and the egg scenario. The way RDMs play and have played is not a result of people choosing one style over another with all things equal. No, the deck has long since been stacked in the caster favor when it comes to gear, abilities, traits, the earlier mentioned restrictions in WS, and the general social need of support/curative jobs in an MMO with the gross misconception that early day WHMs couldn't do what RDM was. Add some nerfs to enmity generation, with Tranquil Heart on top of that, and even the tanking style got boned for reasons we're really not sure why, as far as RDMs go, at least.

Nobody's saying that RDMs shouldn't have gear to chase, but the lack of strong hybrid options effectively doubles the effort a RDM has to put forth if they truly wish to be versatile as a mage and melee. With the stigma against melee, when you see a RDM asking to do whatever to improve their martial prowess, it's not uncommon for people to not want to help if there's nothing in it for them (And I still say the best way for a RDM to get an Almace is to be a BLU, which is its own level of wrong). And while people love to hate on the Teal/Perle/Aurore sets, they put out a modestly acceptable baseline for people of their given jobs to start at and build upon if they hadn't been running the 75 treadmill to get the best of the best the old cap had to offer. When you compare the Haste/STR/DEX/ACC/ATK of Perle to just Turban/Dusk Gloves/Dusk Ledelsens, even though the latter is lower level gear, the gap is pretty huge. Even when you start throwing in more incrementally difficult pieces to acquire like Goliard Body or augmented pants (And before you guys rage, it's more about the inability to just buy at the AH), while Haste values may start closing in on each other, the other stats are still largely untouched. This, at present, eventually becomes the best RDM can get, with a CDC weapon being more of a must have instead of a finishing touch (You don't exactly see: "No Ukko's? No thanks!" when it comes to WARs, do you?). Meanwhile, all those "gimp" DDs using the mentioned sets have continued growth beyond that, some not even needing Empyrean weapons to spank a RDM.

We're well beyond the point of justification with the "Well, that's all they can do!" angle. We've seen SE throw out various abilities over the years with pros and cons. Something can be done while allaying the fears of the balancemongers, to satisfy all parties, but the fact even the more simplistic and reasonable requests have been paid no heed is perhaps the most infuriating part of this years long issue. I know it's easy for it to be a non-issue for some, or you get those who sit back smiling in spite over their perceived RDM's fall from grace because "they took their job" or "soloed something they shouldn't" in the past.

With the Jack angle being more of a player demand/sanity check, conceptually it falls flat when one side grows too strong over the other, broaching more into the territory of a specialist. While we're certainly curious about new enfeebles and improvements to current ones on top of that, such is a straying from the versatility that drew some to the job. Perhaps more cynically, if you're never asked to do something, it's not a job feature, and I've never in my 8 years of playing see a leader do a /sea all for a RDM to ask for a melee. Hell, I haven't, either, knowing the shortcomings. The relationship between RDMs and SCHs is particularly troublesome at the moment, as they're going to be very similar jobs at 99, many feeling SCH will be outright superior without things to make RDM stand out. Enfeebles could do that, yes, but some will be disappointed if improved swordplay is not on the table since it's something SCHs don't have.

[Dallas]

Ignore Korpg, Duelle. He is anti-melee SMN. Since no one has bothered figuring out how to make melee RDM stronger than melee SMN, he will spout random numbers forever.

If he mentions:
1) lack of accuracy
2) lack of attack
3) TP feed
4) WAR, Byakko's Axe, Ukon or otherwise

He's in blind rage mode. These are all arguments that someone else proposed and he has assimilated.

[Razushu]

Ignore Korpg, Duelle. He is anti-melee SMN. Since no one has bothered figuring out how to make melee RDM stronger than melee SMN, he will spout random numbers forever.

If he mentions:
1) lack of accuracy
2) lack of attack
3) TP feed
4) WAR, Byakko's Axe, Ukon or otherwise

He's in blind rage mode. These are all arguments that someone else proposed and he has assimilated.

Dallas there's no comparsion between SMN melee and RDM melee. RDM was implemented as a light melee/nuker/healer hybrid. SMN on the other hand was a backline pet mage. I've nothing against RDM melee, I've seen it do great as a light DD(and this is without the need for phony numbers to back it up).

[Malamasala]

Dallas there's no comparsion between SMN melee and RDM melee. RDM was implemented as a light melee/nuker/healer hybrid. SMN on the other hand was a backline pet mage. I've nothing against RDM melee, I've seen it do great as a light DD(and this is without the need for phony numbers to back it up).

When are these meaningless debates going to end?

All jobs who can walk up next to a mob and melee it, without significantly hurting their role, is fine, right? I'm pretty sure both RDM and SMN can do that. Well, GOOD RDMs or SMNs. I won't make a statement that anyone could do it without putting effort into it.

[Razushu]

When are these meaningless debates going to end?

All jobs who can walk up next to a mob and melee it, without significantly hurting their role, is fine, right? I'm pretty sure both RDM and SMN can do that. Well, GOOD RDMs or SMNs. I won't make a statement that anyone could do it without putting effort into it.

Unfortunately they're probably only going to end when Dallas stops being enteraining, and right now it's still too much fun poking him to let up. I apologise if I upset any of the more sensible meleeing mages out there, but I'm not actually attacking mage melee. I'm just playing with Dallas. Mage melee like most things has a place somewhere in this game, and like I've said before if the mobs weak enough and no one else involved minds go for it.

[Korpg]

When are these meaningless debates going to end?

All jobs who can walk up next to a mob and melee it, without significantly hurting their role, is fine, right? I'm pretty sure both RDM and SMN can do that. Well, GOOD RDMs or SMNs. I won't make a statement that anyone could do it without putting effort into it.

Yet, Great SMNs don't need to melee to still get the kills they need, and can solo harder stuff than Groundskeepers and such.

But that is besides the point....or is it?

[Malamasala]

Yet, Great SMNs don't need to melee to still get the kills they need, and can solo harder stuff than Groundskeepers and such.

But that is besides the point....or is it?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. So BLU being able to do their job from backline means only bad BLUs melee? In Abyssea a DNC can get regain and stand at backlines and heal... is this the superior way over melee for TP?

If you can do your role in melee range or back line, simply choose what you'd like. I do however suggest against melee range if you expect to die every 30 seconds. But that is a personal opinion of mine.

[Dallas]

Raz, if you haven't levelled staff skill, go back to the other thread.