[dev1017]* Dancer Support/Healing Redux Idea (also /Dnc suggestions)

[Eri]

What's keeping you from kicking that person who puts on Drain Samba and get a real DD?

Ima nice Person at heart? =P No really im against kicking ppl even if someone
doesn't listen they learn it eventually~
I can't be like: 'I'm the DNC here all your Sambas are MINE!' can i?

Finally Steps:
Steps already have a cooperative element built into them as all Dancers using the same steps will simply increase the level of the step, or extend the duration at the highest level (no fixes needed for conflict there.)

Now, I mainly use steps to build finishing moves. Which step is chosen isn't really all that important against most targets. I'd like our choice of steps to be more important. The main issue with steps is how they build in power over time as more and more steps are applied, which makes them have only negligible effects in short fights. Since there is no distinction, currently, between a Dancer Main and a /dnc's steps, (the existing game mechanic is all steps of the same type building on the same status effect) the power of a Dancer Main's steps cannot differ from support /dnc steps.

* The most complicated method would likely be be accomplished by allowing Steps to have varying power levels that build a step effect's potency. This would be an overhaul of the current step code. It would allow steps to increase in potency in more incremental amounts, instead of a simple "5 level" status effect. Dancer Mains would get stronger per-step increases than support /dnc. This would make it harder to see how powerful the current step effect is, since it would be handled similarly to how Haste is handled on a fractional basis, and we can't see the step's power level directly like we can see Haste on gear and add it up. (they could increase step "numbers" to show more incremental steps, but the current method of gaining finishing moves relies on the 5 step method to make dancers switch up the steps they're using to continue getting the most finishing moves per step, since they currently only gain 1 finishing move after the level 5 status effect is achieved, rather than 2 per step under level 5 effect.)

* A simple solution, though less incremental, keeps the "numbered" system in place. The difference being all of Dancer Main's steps increase the step level by 2, while support /dnc raises it by 1 each time. (Presto would have to be adjusted to +1 more level on its activation) This would allow Dancer Mains to bring their steps to full power quicker than support jobs, which is a major bonus when you consider the Damage caused by the rest of the party for the durations that certain levels of each step are on the enemy. A further bonus to this change is that Dancer mains could keep more level 5 effects up at a time, or build steps back to level 5 faster when they let certain steps drop off.

Steps
I thought the same at start but increasing the Tiers gained by only one step maybe proves to be overpowering as in being able to keep 3 Steps at full Tier all time.
Also Presto does that... which leads me to the following.
Why not adjusting the recasttimer for Presto from 30 seconds to 20 second,
and the Duration from 30 to 45 seconds hereby allowing that you can hit a second step in case you missed one and also allowing a more frequent usage that results in higher potency of Steps.

Also lower the lvl of Presto to Something in the lvl 50s.
A Lower lvl Dancer needs to learn using it frequently so lvl 80 is just to high i shouldn't be subjobable thu. Lvl 50ish to clearly devide sub and Main
And Subjubs doen't need any adjustment in this example

Sambas

I had an intresting Idea!

I was thinking about Bard... then i realised something.
Why shouln't Dancer be able to get an Ability that is similar but weaker and a lower recast as Bards Troubadour?

"Memorable Dance" Lv 81

"Your next Samba will be increased by 1/3 of its Potency and Duration"

Recast: 6 Minutes

So lest take the all favorit Haste Samba an Combine it with this ability shall we?

You get: Haste Samba (Full Merrited)
Duration: 2:00 (AF head excluded) Effect: 13% (Rounded down) Ability Haste

How about this one?
(It a Samba Fix that seems fine maybe Korpg wants to adjust the rescast timer a bit)

I support the rest of AyinDygra's post.

[Korpg]

Ima nice Person at heart? =P No really im against kicking ppl even if someone
doesn't listen they learn it eventually~
I can't be like: 'I'm the DNC here all your Sambas a MINE!' can i?

Then you can't blame anyone but yourself if your party sucks.

Also, why are you asking for my permission for anything? I don't care about DNC that much, I'm just pointing out some flaws that would make others hate your idea, before they voice it in a more aggressive tone.

[Eri]

Because you seem to know enought about the game to see if something is overpowerd or just right or absolutly disturbing, in the prospect of Jobs interacting in one party.
So i asked you to adjust that recast timer accordingly its not about Dancer afterall its about a Job or subjob played in a Group of ppl.

Edit: and for the kicking Part thats a rethorical question to myself, I could not justfy kicking anyone for that.... everyone makes mistakes.

[Korpg]

Because you seem to know enought about the game to see if something is overpowerd or just right or absolutly disturbing, in the prospect of Jobs interacting in one party.

Having recast timers for individual Waltzes would be good. I don't think they would be overpowered at all because WHM/RDM/SCHs aren't limited to one cure timer. But then again, they have the most ability for healing, while DNC only has a static healing ability (very few equipment would increase potency for Waltzes).

Creating a skill for any Dancer ability would be horrible, because you are limiting the actual effect of all dance moves, not just one set of moves. Also, creating a skillset would also bring in resist factors, meaning Steps will have 2 points of accuracy, Physical and Magical Accuracy. So would all Finishing Moves. But I already have stated that in this thread.

So i asked you to adjust that recast timer accordingly its not about Dancer afterall its about a Job or subjob played in a Group of ppl.

How would changing recast timers for all dancer abilities have any effect on any job that is not currently using Dancer as a main or sub job? I mean, sure, having separate timers for Waltzes would bring on the cures a lot faster if you don't have a dedicated healer, but if the DNC is the main healer, I would worry about being in that group as is.

Edit: and for the kicking Part thats a rethorical question to myself, I could not justfy kicking anyone for that.... everyone makes mistakes.

There is a difference between mistakes and errors. Anyone can make a mistake, it is when you refuse to fix that mistake is when it becomes an error.

Having 2 DNCs in the same party(2 mains, 2 subs, or one of each, doesn't matter), one who uses Haste Samba, the other Drain Samba, that is an error if you don't fix it. If the person who is using Drain Samba continues to do so, even though you already told them to stop, it is the leader's responsibility to fix that "mistake," and assuming you are the leader, if you don't kick them (or threaten to kick them, but you should have already done that prior to kicking them) then the mistake becomes your error, and you have nobody but yourself to blame for that. Unless, of course, you are the one who is doing the Drain Samba, then the error goes to your party members for not leaving.

[Eri]

How would changing recast timers for all dancer abilities have any effect on any job that is not currently using Dancer as a main or sub job? I mean, sure, having separate timers for Waltzes would bring on the cures a lot faster if you don't have a dedicated healer, but if the DNC is the main healer, I would worry about being in that group as is.

That Recast Time comment was directly directed to the "Memorable Dance" thing, as mentioned in that brackets.

XD but you made a good post there whatsoever! Anyway im against kicking....
i make evil comments till ppl leave by themself >_>

[Eeek]

And honestly, only morons you find in pick up groups /DNC. Anytime I do shout for something and someone comes melee/dnc, I tell them to use a real sub or dont bother taking them.

This is still relevant several pages later.

[Eri]

I'll throw one out for Dancer sub.

So, we do not want 2 Ppl in a Group useing Sambas at the same Time.

So how about adding an Ability in the lvl 30-40s that renders Sambas unuseable,
but gives you further Benefit from any Samba (Daze) Effect present?

So if this is effect, a Dancer sub useing it, would be unable to use their own Sambas,
while getting more out of the Sambas of another Party member?

I would guess that everyone could benefit from that.
And its also an alternated solution for the Overwriteing Main to Sub.

[Korpg]

You know, I still don't see any reason to have anyone sub DNC if there is a DNC main in the party.

People generally sub DNC when they are going to solo something (THF/DNC, NIN/DNC, MNK/DNC).

In a party situation, if any MNK, THF, NIN, WAR, or any other DD out there subs DNC for any reason, that is an automatic kick from that party as far as I'm concerned.

Why you ask?

Can a person who /DNC heal the entire party? No.
Can a person who /DNC increase their DoT as say /WAR or /SAM? No.
Can a person effectively tank as /DNC? Hell no.

I would question DNCs mainhealing parties, but I have been in a small group where our only healer was a DNC, and they did just fine, so DNC mains can do so as far as I'm concerned. Would I choose them as first priority (or even second/third priority) as main healers? No.

Adding that ability of yours Eri would do nothing to the party except make it worse off.

[Eri]

As the for ppl subbing dnc. Some ppl do that only for solo.
Sometimes you come accross ppl that are like: ' /dnc ! i dont trust the healer, rather be able to cure my self.' you can find such things in Partys.

I give you that, it doesn't give the Party anything but gimpy dmg output.
But then again i'm in the opinion that everyone can do what they figure too be the best solution.

Honestly I do see like a THF in party that subs /DNC over /NIN that makes me wanna cry but then again if im not in a leader position and i cant leave ppl needing my help (maybe) whever job i may go as . So in some occasions you can keep telling ppl like: 'Dude you could be doing Tons of more Dmg on another Sub' and you can excpect either thing happens.

1. They are listening and swiching that sub out. (soooo unlikely)

2. They say: '....And lose my exp chain here and Abys? Hell no!' (Abyssea only)

3. They go like: 'Don't tell me how to play my Job!'

4. You get ignored.


Well Dancer healing is somwhat limited to how much dmg you Pt would take (considdering long recasts)... by 75 if you had a Coli-Burn ~ if it was a good Group you could go like: DD/nin DD/nin DNC BRD BRD COR/WHM get the same or better exp then a normal Group.

But for the average group Dancer as a mainheal was a no-go in most cases, so you depend on ppl takeing not a lot dmg or have 1 person soak it up to pull that up.
(Dancer can only Spot Heal afterall)

As many ppl mentioned Dancer was designed to keep also the subjob utility in mind... they gave a bit of the subjob usability to /dnc in case of Dual weild.

Example of what 'could happen':
So Your in al lvl 50ish exp situation for whatever reason... maybe you wanna get Conquest points or something. Doesn't matter y.

So you ask ppl for Party and theres not a whole lot on seek.

You get a Pld, Some half asleep Drk, a Blu/Dnc, a War, a Dnc (who will only samba and Ws) and a Smn.
You took what you could cause you don't have a lot time to Seek!
You have Only like 2 Hours to Party gotta work next day!

The Blu is /Dnc for DW as thu /Nin would be a higher tier DW...

Your wont bother asking ppl to swich to go get exp while you are on limited time.

The party blows obviously! (You figured as mutch i guess)

So as the Dnc uses Sambas the Blu would get a kind of Bonus for no useing them.
Like +50 Attack or something (make it BIG lol should be less.), no idea what that Bonus would be but it would have to be noticeable.

A noticeable Bonus to justfy subjob Dancer in Party. Hell yes .
Because right now it for soloing and lowmanning and farming in cases but has no use as a subjob in a Party other then Gimping Dmg and disturbing Sambas.

I personally would not accept /dnc in party for any reason but you ocassionally just end up with something and you have to deal with it.

And i would like such a bonus (or a bonus along the lines of that) for not useing Two Sambas for 3 reasons.

1. Give them a good reason not to do it.

2. Helping an otherwise bad Party setup out a bit.

3. Getting rid of the Overwriting in another way.

And seriously dont ask me WHY ppl go to exp with a crappy SJ hell if i knew lol.
I seen i a few of times thu. It happens.

On a sidenote: Thf/dnc is a horrible Idea for any PT dont let me see that again. Ever.

[hiko]

no to dnc skill because it will make it a totally useless sub.
with stupid sub skill you wont be able to land a single step on anything EP +, so you wont be able to use any flourish (no FM if cant land steps)

And honestly, only morons you find in pick up groups /DNC. Anytime I do shout for something and someone comes melee/dnc, I tell them to use a real sub or dont bother taking them.

if you have >2people meleing and not capped in delay reduction having one /dnc haste sambaing is a bigger increase in dmg than any other sub