[dev1017]* Dancer Support/Healing Redux Idea (also /Dnc suggestions)

[Korpg]

I seriously do not see y your posting that: Tell you what. Other jobs get diffrent Spells ( I II III so on) of one kind.
but these are still affected. By skill and gear in their potency to a degree.

But they don't need TP to do damage, or cure, or need to actually hit anything.

The main difference between jobs with skill and jobs that don't is MP. Although Ninjutsu doesn't require MP (tools instead) and Songs doesn't require MP (limited by type of instrument played) they are still effective by silence.

Also, look at where you can find spells and Dances.

Spells (those affected by silence) are found under the "Magic" Category on the menu, while Dances are under the "Job Abilities" Category on the menu, and only when you have the job as main or sub.

By making them where you would need skill, it wouldn't be under the "Magic" skills, since these are "Job Abilities" so they would have to be under combat skills....except they aren't combat skills at all.

So, where would you put them if you had your way and made them into "skills" setting?

[Alkalinehoe]

If SE decides to up the haste given by haste samba they need to do the same for garudas hastga, haste, refueling, and animating wail to maintain balance.

Those are all magic haste..... Why should they get their values upped?

No haste spell is really affected by skill of said job except Brd but their a true support job in the since all they can do is support,

BRDs get Evisc and a decent dagger skill, they can pump out some nice numbers.

new spell animating wail which is 15% haste.

the spell is nearly a year old, hardly what I'd call new.

[Alkalinehoe]

There is more to the game the then abyssea, brd is horrible for dmg without RR outside with eviseration and to the point that their magic haste then why did the op compare it to victory march its magic haste as well but it ups with skill lvl, and I referanced animating wail because its a new form of haste besides refueling, just like haste samba II would be, I supose you just wanted someone to argue with though.

BRD still isn't that bad, they get access to quite a few decent melee pieces and can cap gear haste. Plus they can always count on being able to March x2 themselves, or even madrigal themselves if ACC is an issue (although with the level cap there isn't much you'll have difficulty hitting outside Abyssea). Also, I wasn't asking why the OP was comparing March with Haste Samba, I was asking why you were comparing "Haste Samba II" with Hastega/Animating Wail/Haste. I get why the OP went with Victory March as an example of possible Haste Samba tiers, but why would implementing a new form of JA haste make SE increase the haste values of some magic haste sources? And Animating Wail still isn't new.

[Eri]

First to Say i liked this post. Even thu it against the Idea of skill.
But its pretty mutch benefical.

Eri, your argument is essentially: Make Dancer abilities into magic so they are subject to accuracy/potency/duration changes due to a new magic skill: "Dancing" so Dancer's abilities increase in accuracy/potency/duration as we skill-up. You want things to "get better" as we level up, right?

This is about right, but its also small things that are weird.
Say we got a main Dancer and a supportjob Dancer in the same Party.
the most recent hit of the Main or Sub will determine which Samba effect the person hitting after main or sub will 'get'. That Main Dancers Sambe has always to take Priority.

The Repercussions of "Dancing Skill":
In the process of making Dancer "get better" with "Dancing Skill" as they level up, you would make the Dancer Job Abilities essentially useless as support job abilities, since no other job has this "Dancing skill" natively, which is the main thing that allows mage jobs to be useful as support jobs to other mages that share the same magic skills that their spells rely on.

You forget /SCH who actually can get Skill to a dedree (B?) via Dark Arts and Light Arts probably only designed to give a /sch the Skill which the person subbing it will not posess at a decent none gimped Lvl .

That's just the tip of the iceberg. I see any one of these scenarios playing out:
1) Best case scenario: Dancing skill improves some/all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish (accuracy, potency and duration) beyond their current strengths. When using Dancer as a support job, all of these potencies and durations are cut in half.

To get higher potencies/durations for Dancer Main, you'd have to convince SE that their current strengths are not sufficient and are in need of increasing at the default level before merits and gear; otherwise, see point 2.

2) Most likely scenario: Dancing skill causes some/all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish potencies and durations to start out much lower than their current strengths (justifying the need for such a skill in the first place, if the difference is minimal anyway, what's the point?), requiring us to skill up and level up enough to have high enough skill caps to bring these same abilities up to their current strengths. When using Dancer as a support job, all of these potencies and durations are cut far below half of their current strengths since they already started lower to begin with.

I don't see a reason to punish the support job use of Dancer, nor the lower levels of Dancer, especially since the abilities are already balanced for what SE thinks are their proper potencies and durations AND the Dancer job was designed to be a new, desirable melee support job alternative, a function which this destroys.

3) Worst case scenario (this is SE we're talking about): Dancer skill causes all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish potencies and durations to start out much lower than their current strengths, requiring us to skill up and level up enough and wear "skill increasing" gear to bring these up to their current strengths. Using Dancer as a support job becomes a joke, healing for less HP than damage taken in the time they take to use a waltz. Steps have 50% accuracy due to skill, Sambas only last 30 seconds and heal in single digits, jigs wear off before the jig animation finishes, and flourish effects fail to trigger even more often, making steps far less accurate and only really useful for their own effects since the finishing moves they provide are for the now-even-more-unreliable flourishes.


My argument (and probably many others') is essentially: Why break something that is NOT broken? No, the support job use of Dancer is not broken; it is exactly as SE intended for the use of /dancer. No, our Job Abilities are not broken; they function like Hasso's "job ability" version of Haste (not spell or gear haste), Chakra's healing (follows a formula that is changed by vitality and gear), Focus' accuracy up (Quick step reduces targets evasion by fixed amounts), and Berserk's attack up (Box step to reduce their defense by fixed amounts), not like spells that change with "skill levels." Nothing "is weird here", as you proclaimed in the original post.

We wouldn't mind even more ways to improve Dancer ability strengths (beyond new tiers of our current abilities, split waltz timers, new merits and gear), but this idea of "Dancing skill" is NOT the way to implement it.

Do you have a Scenario 4 that I have overlooked?

Yes i do have.

4. Given Skill Senario
Just give it a SCH like Ability to to give a SJ a Decent amount of Skill (Stance Type)
As Oposed to haveing half lvl skill as a subjob you would attain a decent amount of skill trough that. By that you would not have any Problems of which i could think right now.
There might be broblems i overlooked on this but as the to a useful lvl you could also restrict certain things which a subjob shouldn't do when a Main is Present anyway.

[Korpg]

You still haven't answered my question:

If you make it into a skill, where do you place the skill?

Magic or Combat skill?

[Eri]

You still haven't answered my question:

If you make it into a skill, where do you place the skill?

Magic or Combat skill?

Oh sorry for the late Reply.

I would take a bet that this is like: are Dances of Magical or Physical nature?

So Let me answer that acordingly.

Dances use TP instead of MP so its Physical?

Looking at how MP and TP are obtained respectively.

MP - Straight resting
TP - Hitting a Mob.

So judeing by that it seems clearly physical, but before the Dancer Job was introduced,
it was not even possible to do anything with your TP unless WS. It was an all Magical asset to Heal/Buff/Debuff.
So this has Changed.
TP and MP are two things that can essentially be used in a similar Way.
To Heal/Debuff/DD etc

Even Avtars Modify their nukes by TP instead of MP
- The Summoner loses MP to perform a Bloodpact - the Avatars TP Modifys the Dmg of a magical nuke to a degree.

Moveing on to look at Blue mage which has a Magical skill that also applys on 'Physical Spells'.

As in that a BLU Mage that uses MP to perform Physical Attacks.(God that sounds weird!)

Let have a look:
Physical Spells Acc is modfied to a degree by the weapon the BLU weilds,
so Wearing a Staff (no native skill) will cause the Physical 'Spell' to be far more inacurate then
while haveing a Sword equiped.

Best example that cones in mind would be 'Head Butt' (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Head_Butt)
Which is Modified by Physical and Magical Attributes, and also, to a degree, being modified by skill since it has Magical and Physical Attributes.

Now haveing cleared that a MP consume 'Spell' can be Modified by a meele Skill (Acc)
Can't a TP consuming 'Spell' not be Modified by a Magical Skill?

Are Dances Physical or Magical and in which Merrit Category does 'Dancing Skill' fall ?

As mutch as a Physical Blu spell falls under the Category 'Magic' a Dance as tough consumeing TP would fall under Magic aswell. Theres no Critical diffrence in effect beside the Fact that it consumes TP instead of MP.
How could a Magic Skill affect physical Spell (for Blu) but Dances cant be 'Spells' because of they consume TP instead of MP?

Also theres Violent flourish (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Violent_Flourish) already, which as both Physical and Magical aspects and can be modified by either lowering magic defense or adding "Magic Accuracy" accordingly.

In Short: Magic

Does that sound about right or did i make some crtical mistakes?

[Byrth]

Where you put the skill doesn't matter, nor does your logic behind it.

The fact of the matter is, SE made a decision to not introduce any new skills with Wings of the Goddess. Suggesting something they already decided not to do is a waste of time. You've wasted your time. Cut your losses and stop talking about this.

[Eri]

Quote on that pls?

Its a lot small things that can be changed serperatly of couse! And there would not be any need to add skill to it!
Still Skill would most likely fix everything instead of changeing everything seperately.
And i would like to see the Quote that sais: no new skills in Wotg which i probably have missed. All that despite the fact that Wotg has been around a while, and things can change.
Where is the loss in talking about this?

[Byrth]

Any time/effort they spend adding something unnecessary to the game is time/effort that they don't spend making new content. Adding a Skill for Dancing would take a lot of time/effort and would only minorly affect the game. Not worth doing.

What is the purpose of making something skill-based?
1) The potency is lower or the effect is diminished when subbed.
2) The potency is increased or the effect is enhanced when you "skill it up" or stack gear that increases skill.

If you can't figure out how Dances already fulfill the purposes of 1 and 2, you have some problems. Because they obviously designed Dances to fulfill conditions 1 and 2 but didn't do so through a skill, they obviously made the conscious decision to avoid making a Dancing Skill.

[Zyeriis]

Dancer's real dancing skill: Dagger skill. /thread