[dev1017]* Dancer Support/Healing Redux Idea (also /Dnc suggestions)

[Eeek]

I seriously do not see y your posting that ...

Oh.

My.

God.

Here's why I posted what I did:

However Merrit's only apply to a Main and Sambas should like gain potency by increaseing lvl and stats for a subjob too shouln't they?
As the Waltz Potency % cap is 30% (testing in Abys with Atma and Gear) and thats obtainable right now without any Atmas, Potency will most likely not happen. For the rest yes i'd be in for that though Samba/Step Potency/Acc should vary by lvl main or sub in my Opinion.

I addressed both of the bolded points quite clearly in my long post. Did you actually read it?

A DNC main already has access to more potent Sambas than a melee/DNC via a combination of level (90DNC versus /45DNC), equipment, and merits.

A DNC main already has more potent Steps as DNC receives more Finishing Moves than melee/DNC. Also, a DNC can use Presto for an additional Finishing Move and as a way to increase a Step's debuff potency in less time than a melee/DNC. A DNC main's Reverse Flourish is unquestionably and significantly better than a melee/DNC's Reverse Flourish.

A DNC main's Waltzes are inherently more potent than a melee/DNC's Waltzes due to differences in the formula. A DNC main also has access to more Waltz Potency gear. The AF1 Body, Dancer's Casaque, grants +10% Waltz Potency in a single incredibly-easy-to-acquire piece of gear.

A DNC main has a much more accurate Violent Flourish in part because the AF2 Body, Etoile Casaque, greatly enhances it.

And for the last time, I'm not trolling you. I'm disagreeing with you, and it's so easy to disagree with you as you don't seem to have any earthly idea what you're talking about.

[Eri]

You could do that, as tho it is neither the same amout of Haste nor its a Aoe Party Buff.
Unless you take Garuda's Hastega i Suppose which is 15% Haste but its duration varys by Skill up to 5 min
(rdm and whm 3 min) So your yet again looking at someting that is affected by still to a degree. Given its not Potency
because it would be Highy imbalanced to increase Garuds Haste over say a RDM's Haste.

Its right in the sense to compare them however due to the fact they did not change potency since 75.
However y would i bring a Dancer over a Rdm or Whm or Brd it i wasnt capped on Spell Haste.
so assuming i wasnt capped on Spell or JA haste and had only 1 party spot open i would naturally invite someone to Haste. It if have someone to haste my Meeles and im still not capped on Spell Haste i would get a Brd over a Dnc since
it adds more Haste im asuming the Brd adds a 2 songs Attack+Haste. As you see in this example you cant compare
Haste Spell to Sambas due to the 5% diffrence in Potency. How can i compare v.march to Sambas then? because they were similar potent at 75 and are both party affecting only.

[Eeek]

You brought up DNC main versus /DNC. I highlighted their differences and exactly why there's no need to add 'Dancing Skill' to accentuate the differences between DNC and /DNC.

I don't know why you're now talking about Hastega, Haste, and March when that was never the point I addressed. Also, here's a tip: Haste Samba is not magic Haste. It's JA Haste.

[Zetonegi]

You could do that, as tho it is neither the same amout of Haste nor its a Aoe Party Buff.
Unless you take Garuda's Hastega i Suppose which is 15% Haste but its duration varys by Skill up to 5 min
(rdm and whm 3 min) So your yet again looking at someting that is affected by still to a degree. Given its not Potency
because it would be Highy imbalanced to increase Garuds Haste over say a RDM's Haste.

Its right in the sense to compare them however due to the fact they did not change potency since 75.
However y would i bring a Dancer over a Rdm or Whm or Brd it i wasnt capped on Spell Haste.
so assuming i wasnt capped on Spell or JA haste and had only 1 party spot open i would naturally invite someone to Haste. It if have someone to haste my Meeles and im still not capped on Spell Haste i would get a Brd over a Dnc since
it adds more Haste im asuming the Brd adds a 2 songs Attack+Haste. As you see in this example you cant compare
Haste Spell to Sambas due to the 5% diffrence in Potency. How can i compare v.march to Sambas then? because they were similar potent at 75 and are both party affecting only.

1) March is almost always at least 20% because you cast both outside of very rare situations unless you are a terrible BRD.
2) March is 12% haste unless you're a gimpbard even at 75
3) Why should DNC be able to buff on par with a job that's SOLE PURPOSE is buffing.
4) You aren't happy with 10% JOB ABILITY haste(this means it bypasses the caps from gear and Magic)
5) What in the heck does this have to do with /DNC versus main DNC? Main DNC gets 5% more haste on Haste Samba should they choose to merit that. Main DNC has a better formula on Waltzes. Main DNC has MORE Waltzes and Sambas. Main DNC has GEAR to boost those Waltzes, Sambas, and Steps. Main DNC gets 2 finishing moves when they apply a step. Main DNC benefits more from flourishes. Everything I just said was mentioned by other people in the thread and you have ignored it.

[Eri]

Oh.

My.

God.

Here's why I posted what I did:



I addressed both of the bolded points quite clearly in my long post. Did you actually read it?

Yes sadly . No Adressed about nothing.

A DNC main already has access to more potent Sambas than a melee/DNC via a combination of level (90DNC versus /45DNC), equipment, and merits.

Main did not change Sambas 75 > 90

A DNC main already has more potent Steps as DNC receives more Finishing Moves than melee/DNC. Also, a DNC can use Presto for an additional Finishing Move and as a way to increase a Step's debuff potency in less time than a melee/DNC. A DNC main's Reverse Flourish is unquestionably and significantly better than a melee/DNC's Reverse Flourish.

if a main Dnc use a say Box Step 1 time that applys a 5% dmg down on the mob.
if a Sub uses one Box Step if apply a 5% dmg down on the mob.

so there is no diffrence in Potency at all.

the finishing move part is unarguble but is no potency.

A DNC main's Waltzes are inherently more potent than a melee/DNC's Waltzes due to differences in the formula. A DNC main also has access to more Waltz Potency gear. The AF1 Body, Dancer's Casaque, grants +10% Waltz Potency in a single incredibly-easy-to-acquire piece of gear.

Look at Whm now they get easy to Obtain Potency gear, a stat mod and skill in healing that Modifieds the Amount cured.
Say i choose to Cure as a Smn i get acess to the said Skills but not to the Gear

and as oposed to spell cures the waltz cures potency caps at 30%, and subjob dnc gets only the mods as in Chr and Vit.

A DNC main has a much more accurate Violent Flourish in part because the AF2 Body, Etoile Casaque, greatly enhances it.

Add enought m. Acc and you can Aquire about the same stun rate on any Job.

And for the last time, I'm not trolling you. I'm disagreeing with you, and it's so easy to disagree with you as you don't seem to have any earthly idea what you're talking about.

You may not Trolling im ok with you disargeeing. But do you seriously have any idea about what modifies what? I'm pretty unsure about that.

[Eeek]

Okay, it looks like we've firmly established that you have no clue what you're talking about. Or reading, for that matter.

So, what now?

[Eri]

Your are not even seeing that you fail on the argumnt and cant do anything but throw out insults right?

Other than THAT you could accept my opioin on stuff like i accept yours. and you show lack of skill on the argument as well as you proven that. Oh and instead of telling me i dont know anything about this Job you should Test it.

Im open to useful suggestions not to: no we Don't need it. I want my shard Timers. *whine* oh here all the gear (that does nothing about Stuff i expect skill to do.) oh i know everything.

Like seriously noone needs posts that are not of a benefical nature to the Thread. I answer them still since ppl might get it more easy what im going on about. And i find i rather rediculus to have you telling me i have no clue. If i talk about something i have tested it. Unlike you.

[Zatias]

This is pretty difficult to read and I hate big walls'o'text, but I read it anyway.

No to dancing skill, it's pretty pointless. The main problem and mostly complained about is the shared waltz recasts. I hate having to choose between healing myself once for 600 or erasing one of my debuffs, which has an annoying 15 second recast. Would really appreciate multiple waltz categories, a bit like flourishes. Maybe even just have Erase as its own category... this alone would solve many headaches.

Otherwise, sorry but no. Haste Samba isn't even really magic haste like march is, it's job ability haste. They are a bit different. You can stack them, as magic haste and job ability haste are separate.

Dancer abilities are already gimped as SJ compared to the main, but still useful. Having skill would likely just gimp this even more to the point of drain samba draining 1's and 2's on higher level monsters, waltz 3 curing for under 300, and having dnc as a subjob would be near pointless.

You don't see provoke of warriors being influenced by some kinda "warrior" skill, it's all based on your +enmity, as Animated Flourish should be.

I could go on, but for the sake of not becoming a wall'o'text, I won't. Sorry.

[AyinDygra]

Eri, your argument is essentially: Make Dancer abilities into magic so they are subject to accuracy/potency/duration changes due to a new magic skill: "Dancing" so Dancer's abilities increase in accuracy/potency/duration as we skill-up. You want things to "get better" as we level up, right?

The Repercussions of "Dancing Skill":
In the process of making Dancer "get better" with "Dancing Skill" as they level up, you would make the Dancer Job Abilities essentially useless as support job abilities, since no other job has this "Dancing skill" natively, which is the main thing that allows mage jobs to be useful as support jobs to other mages that share the same magic skills that their spells rely on.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. I see any one of these scenarios playing out:
1) Best case scenario: Dancing skill improves some/all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish (accuracy, potency and duration) beyond their current strengths. When using Dancer as a support job, all of these potencies and durations are cut in half.

To get higher potencies/durations for Dancer Main, you'd have to convince SE that their current strengths are not sufficient and are in need of increasing at the default level before merits and gear; otherwise, see point 2.

2) Most likely scenario: Dancing skill causes some/all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish potencies and durations to start out much lower than their current strengths (justifying the need for such a skill in the first place, if the difference is minimal anyway, what's the point?), requiring us to skill up and level up enough to have high enough skill caps to bring these same abilities up to their current strengths. When using Dancer as a support job, all of these potencies and durations are cut far below half of their current strengths since they already started lower to begin with.

I don't see a reason to punish the support job use of Dancer, nor the lower levels of Dancer, especially since the abilities are already balanced for what SE thinks are their proper potencies and durations AND the Dancer job was designed to be a new, desirable melee support job alternative, a function which this destroys.

3) Worst case scenario (this is SE we're talking about): Dancer skill causes all of our step/samba/waltz/jig/flourish potencies and durations to start out much lower than their current strengths, requiring us to skill up and level up enough and wear "skill increasing" gear to bring these up to their current strengths. Using Dancer as a support job becomes a joke, healing for less HP than damage taken in the time they take to use a waltz. Steps have 50% accuracy due to skill, Sambas only last 30 seconds and heal in single digits, jigs wear off before the jig animation finishes, and flourish effects fail to trigger even more often, making steps far less accurate and only really useful for their own effects since the finishing moves they provide are for the now-even-more-unreliable flourishes.


My argument (and probably many others') is essentially: Why break something that is NOT broken? No, the support job use of Dancer is not broken; it is exactly as SE intended for the use of /dancer. No, our Job Abilities are not broken; they function like Hasso's "job ability" version of Haste (not spell or gear haste), Chakra's healing (follows a formula that is changed by vitality and gear), Focus' accuracy up (Quick step reduces targets evasion by fixed amounts), and Berserk's attack up (Box step to reduce their defense by fixed amounts), not like spells that change with "skill levels." Nothing "is weird here", as you proclaimed in the original post.

We wouldn't mind even more ways to improve Dancer ability strengths (beyond new tiers of our current abilities, split waltz timers, new merits and gear), but this idea of "Dancing skill" is NOT the way to implement it.

Do you have a Scenario 4 that I have overlooked?

[Korpg]

Don't care if its lvl 0 to begin with ... that lvls by playing the Job if you dont wanna play it y lvl it to begin with?

I don't know about anyone else, but I leveled DNC to have a subjob for my WAR so I can solo skillup various weapons.