Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Razushu]

Instant cast "spells". We are the only "mage" job that can fire off magic/physical attacks from our pet without getting a casting animation lasting several seconds. If SE wanted us to be mage only, we'd see our SMN stand in a pose for 8 seconds preparing the pact.

And I see nothing that says BST, PUP or DRG should be up front meleeing since they have no stoneskin or self cures (well, they might have). As a melee SMN you are naturally expected to play under the same rules as a DRG, BST or PUP. You can't say some melee jobs need to heal themselves and others can be healed by white mages.

Our cast time is just as long it takes 7 seconds to call an avatar, then there's the amount of time it takes to position the avatar and 4 seconds for the BP to fire


aside from the fact they can survive more than a sneeze from a mob that can stare a SMN to death?

they get:

The high level weapon skills from their given class natively

They have Higher melee stats

They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet

Sure melee jobs can rely on the healer to cure them I never mentioned healing, i just said that to be upfront you need to have some sort of innate survival traits SMN's best means of survival is distance. For a healer to successfully keep a party alive all front liners need to be able to survive long enough to be healed if they start taking damage. I can't see a WHM being any happier healing a melee SMN than they would be healing a NIN with gimp evasion skill/gear who won't use shadows and even they would have easily better survivability than a SMN.

[Malamasala]

Our cast time is just as long it takes 7 seconds to call an avatar, then there's the amount of time it takes to position the avatar and 4 seconds for the BP to fire

It happens once, and then you have your pet. But I do agree that if you choose a playstyle with pet swapping, meleeing will not be ideal. Other things not suitable for pet swapping is: Nuking (lack of built up TP), Favors (lack of power up), Perpetuation gear (why use it if you don't keep pets out and just resummon new ones?).

It is just one of those things that us Summoners can choose the way to play. Pet focused or pact focused. (Personally I dislike the weak wards, and that leaves me just spamming rages, which have recasts of 45 seconds and don't need pet swapping).

The high level weapon skills from their given class natively

They have Higher melee stats

They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet

Observe that your avatar does not get any of these. The avatars are WHM, BLM or DRK, have what equals roughly a 35 DMG rating staff. This is why you are on the edge of hate with a HQ staff and melee with your pet. If you equip a 40 DMG staff or higher, you'll actually out-DD your own avatar (ignoring BP damage).

If you can out DD your own pet, why claim your pet is the DD and yourself not? Only reason to let the pet DD and not yourself, is to avoid death. But a great example of HNM fights were you could melee, is Fafnir. You are supposed to stand on its feet, and you are supposed to get wing spammed and take just as much damage as everyone else. In this situation you may as well melee, since you can't avoid the AOE anyway. (I wouldn't recommend too many melee jobs in total though).

I'd also claim it is easier to keep a SMN alive, than a wyvern. So just check a DRG how long they can keep their wyvern alive, and then add 5 minutes and you'll know how long you can melee. Or better yet, run when the wyvern dies because you are next.

[Razushu]

It happens once, and then you have your pet. But I do agree that if you choose a playstyle with pet swapping, meleeing will not be ideal. Other things not suitable for pet swapping is: Nuking (lack of built up TP), Favors (lack of power up), Perpetuation gear (why use it if you don't keep pets out and just resummon new ones?).

It is just one of those things that us Summoners can choose the way to play. Pet focused or pact focused. (Personally I dislike the weak wards, and that leaves me just spamming rages, which have recasts of 45 seconds and don't need pet swapping).



Observe that your avatar does not get any of these. The avatars are WHM, BLM or DRK, have what equals roughly a 35 DMG rating staff. This is why you are on the edge of hate with a HQ staff and melee with your pet. If you equip a 40 DMG staff or higher, you'll actually out-DD your own avatar (ignoring BP damage).

If you can out DD your own pet, why claim your pet is the DD and yourself not? Only reason to let the pet DD and not yourself, is to avoid death. But a great example of HNM fights were you could melee, is Fafnir. You are supposed to stand on its feet, and you are supposed to get wing spammed and take just as much damage as everyone else. In this situation you may as well melee, since you can't avoid the AOE anyway. (I wouldn't recommend too many melee jobs in total though).

I'd also claim it is easier to keep a SMN alive, than a wyvern. So just check a DRG how long they can keep their wyvern alive, and then add 5 minutes and you'll know how long you can melee. Or better yet, run when the wyvern dies because you are next.

The high level weapon skills from their given class natively=

They get blood pacts not WS

They have Higher melee stats=

Their Blood pacts do lots of damage and naked they way outdamage us (so really the argument should be for us getting more ways to boost thier DoT)

They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet =

Higher HP and -50% PDT

[Malamasala]

Stuff

I'll admit, you lost me. Are we talking only avatars, or comparing pet jobs with avatars?

If it were only avatars, I'd kindly disagree that it is rare to call "50% PDT" a melee trait, even if it helps. If you were saying we have 50% PDT and BST/PUP/DRG have melee traits, then I'm not sure what it means except that is how it is.

[Razushu]

I'll admit, you lost me. Are we talking only avatars, or comparing pet jobs with avatars?

If it were only avatars, I'd kindly disagree that it is rare to call "50% PDT" a melee trait, even if it helps. If you were saying we have 50% PDT and BST/PUP/DRG have melee traits, then I'm not sure what it means except that is how it is.

I'm talking about avatars as we are a pet job solely dependant on our pets for real contribution.

I'm refering to the frontline survivabilty part of my "They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet" of my point. -50% PDT is a trait that enables them to stay alive front line for a longer time. This is also 1/3 of my point if you compare a Summoner to a BST/PUP/DRG(player not the pet) they match 3/3.

1)The high level weapon skills from their given class natively
BST/DRG/PUP all get this.
Avatars get Blood Pacts which are pretty much equivalent to WS
SMN stops getting BPs at Spirit Taker

2)They have Higher melee stats
BST/DRG/PUP all get decent melee stats
Avatar performs well naked(does need some way to boost DoT/stats)
SMN is lowest tier in all but DEX here(don't get too excited though we're second lowest DEX in game)


3)They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet
BST/DRG/PUP all get various traits/abilities for these 3 criteria i.e Snarl(dumping their emnity on thier pet), Martial arts(melee), evasion bonus(frontline survivability)
SMN gets none
Avatar has -50% PDT(frontline survivability)

[Ketaru]

And I see nothing that says BST, PUP or DRG should be up front meleeing since they have no stoneskin or self cures (well, they might have). As a melee SMN you are naturally expected to play under the same rules as a DRG, BST or PUP. You can't say some melee jobs need to heal themselves and others can be healed by white mages.

Just thought I'd chime in that this is not entirely accurate. BST, PUP, and DRG actually do have varying degrees of innate healing utility and survivability tools. They might not see much use in typical group dynamics, although they might if you feel your healing is not going to be sufficient for what you're about to do.

BST's Lucky Lulush has an Area Wild Carrot that heals everybody in range for approximately Cure IV amounts. They also have Snarl so, if they do become the target, they can quickly shrug it off to their pet that they themselves can heal (in Abyssea, my Rewards with Zeta heal approximately 1650 HP).

PUP has healing automaton frames that, while it leaves a lot to be desired compared to a living, breathing WHM, is still adequate supplemental healing on occasions. Not to mention PUP's reputation has a hate free nuker itself. That puppet is capable of some sick amounts of damage.

DRG needs to sub one of the mage jobs in the game, but once they do, their wyvern is capable of some of the most MP efficient heals in the game. If they are also feeling pressure from taking damage because they've grabbed hate, they have their jumps to shed it.

So, in a way, yes, they do each have self cures to varying degrees. They even have hate manipulation tools of their own to aid in their own survivability. To say they don't have survivability tools to justify their bid to be in the frontline is completely inaccurate.

SMN? You die if a mob so much as sneezes at you.

SMN is not broken. Definitely not outside of Abyssea. Inside, it's simply not popular, thats all.

SMN can solo things in Abyssea. People might not like that, but just take a walk down Port Jeuno and look at all the people that don't have the gear they want for their jobs. In Abyssea, your ability to get procs counts for a lot. But groups are not always available and, at such times, you would do well to have a job to fall back on if you need to solo. And, at the point of the game that it is now, being able to get loot one way or the other counts for a lot. All I have to say is, if you don't exploit that SMN can solo stuff, Danny DRK and Roger RNG still aren't going to feel sorry for you.

I've always wondered why SE gave only SMN a global spell timer.

BST pets have global recast timers. All of our pet's abilities are on the foul and wretched "charge" system so, even if our pet's have 100 TP, we still have to wait to have the appropriate number of "charges" to perform some of our abilities. Wild Carrot? Sheep Song? Acid Mist? Charged Whisker? Rage? All come from the same charge pool whether they're damage dealing, support, healing, or enfeebling. Calling pets? All on the same job ability timer. Healing HP or curing status effects? All on the Reward timer.

I'm not saying SMN has it good, but in a way, that's actually the price you pay for being a pet job.

[Dallas]

If you can out DD your own pet, why claim your pet is the DD and yourself not?

Keep going, you are almost there. I do believe the day you put it all together, you won't be complaining about the pieces.

Obviously, the answer to your question is "SMN DD + pet DD > SMN DD > pet DD"