Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Razushu]

You can argue that BST and SMN jumped 6 spots for any reason you like, but the answer is "soloing in Abyssea" which requires Ducal Guard. No one was looking at -pdt pet builds but me.

and everyone else don't forget them it's a select club. I can't think of anyone that would see -50% PDT and not think "hmmmm.... I could use this for my avatar". Next you'll claim you're responsible for people using spirits for elemental siphon

[Dallas]

and everyone else don't forget them it's a select club. I can't think of anyone that would see -50% PDT and not think "hmmmm.... I could use this for my avatar". Next you'll claim you're responsible for people using spirits for elemental siphon

Your lie doesn't get you far, when I was the only person working on -PDT builds months before Heroes was released. Pick any 5 SMN on your friend list. How much Avatar: pdt gear do they all own between them?

[Arciel]

LOL.. you ask how much as if there are actually options.

there is a grand total of TWO pieces of pet: dt/pdt gear that a SMN can use..
Selenian Cap with augment, and TotM staff (Shareeravadi)

the former, I actually bothered to use for a while but it's honestly wasted because I have BST as well and the 10% dmg taken goes a much longer way there.
the latter, a SMN has no real reason to get because before heroes, if you were aiming to max PDT, inclusive of 2 atma and both pieces of gear, you'd still be a little short of 100%, which isn't actually that bad but you'd be forgoing atma to sustain perp/bp MP costs. your avatar would still die rather quickly because they have pitifully short HP counts and you don't have a reliable way of healing them apart from Ward healing back to back, which you won't likely be able to sustain given MP constraints.
Drop an atma or the staff, and your pet will be dying a whole lot faster. but at least then you can melee with your Hvergelmir for Myrkr rite?

end of the day, it boils down to this...
- if you can kite the NM, you're better off doing that and killing (solo) for SMN because it takes no effort to stack damage and your avatar is disposable, and will take just as long, if not faster because you're not geared/specced for damage.
- if you can't kite the NM, you could have an avatar straight tank it but you're going to take a helluva long time to kill it - back in 2 atma days (also considering empyrean gear options), chances of you running out of mp is higher if you didn't use refresh atma - and your avatar would likely be your only source of dmg.
- if you can straight tank with the avatar and melee, well then obviously your avatar wouldn't be tanking it since you claim that it has trouble pulling hate from your awesome melee no?

so which is it

[Malamasala]

SMN is rank #10 this year. You are welcome.

That list is very confusing, since I see just as many PUPs as SMNs, and I believe PUP was rank 19 or 20. I'll just assume all the SMNs are on other servers than Phoenix.

[Razushu]

That list is very confusing, since I see just as many PUPs as SMNs, and I believe PUP was rank 19 or 20. I'll just assume all the SMNs are on other servers than Phoenix.

I think it's what people have leveled to cap not what people are maining

[Razushu]

Your lie doesn't get you far, when I was the only person working on -PDT builds months before Heroes was released. Pick any 5 SMN on your friend list. How much Avatar: pdt gear do they all own between them?

What lie?

It took you months to find all the gear with pet: PDT-% on it? - PDT is kinda pointless with disposable pets unless it's a big number.

[Malamasala]

It isn't really useless. The longer your pet lives, the more time you have to melee.

I've still not seen all that much -PDT gear around though. And I believe the augmented one for example was applied AFTER your initial 50% avatar PDT was removed. so 100 damage turns into 50 damage and then you might remove 5% from that, which is more like 2 damage than 5 damage.

[Razushu]

It isn't really useless. The longer your pet lives, the more time you have to melee.

I've still not seen all that much -PDT gear around though. And I believe the augmented one for example was applied AFTER your initial 50% avatar PDT was removed. so 100 damage turns into 50 damage and then you might remove 5% from that, which is more like 2 damage than 5 damage.

If your solo and you'll need to recast melee is a poor idea unless you do less damage than a single Blood pact rage can do, chances are you'll pull too much hate for a fresh avatar to take quick enough to save you, and if your in a party who cares if your avatar dies call a new one. I said pointless not useless as in yes you can have a slightly longer lasting pet but will it change the fight enough to justify stacking it?

[Ulric]

So, Malamasala, let me try to understand something. You want SMN to be able to melee really well, buff really well, deal tons of damage with their pets, and buff amazingly well? So, you want it to just do most everyone else's job for them? Most of that isn't in the role of what Summoner is supposed to do, in my opinion. White Mage can deal a lot of damage melee, yes, but it isn't their role. I've seen White Mages outdamage some DDs, but it just isn't their job to attack, theirs is to support a group by healing and buffs. I've seen a Black Mage do incredible melee damage, but again, melee damage is not their role. Summoner's role, is to support the party with damage from pets, which has hit numbers that make my DD's envious, as well as buffing that I believe mostly stacks with other buffs of the same type, or offers something that you can't get readily elsewhere. Your job isn't to be the main damage mitigation, that's the jobs with higher forms of doing it, such as White Mage and Red Mage. Leave melee to the jobs that specialize in it. Learn your role a bit better. Honestly, my Summoner isn't a main by any means, and I feel I know more about it than you might. But, as I said before, this is all just personal opinion.

[Malamasala]

So, Malamasala, let me try to understand something.

How nice of you to try and understand it.

You want SMN to be able to melee really well, buff really well, deal tons of damage with their pets, and buff amazingly well?

Depends on your rating of "really well". A SMN should melee as good as a PUP, since both jobs are at the core identical (the difference being one has MP the other doesn't). If you think PUP melee too well for a SMN to match it, then it isn't my fault that PUP is overpowered.

And yes, I want the job to buff really well. Have you taken a second glance at our buffs? 90% defensive buffs. What point is there to have weak defense buffs to not replace BRD and COR that has offense buffs? I promise you that even if SMN could give you a 24 hour icespikes effect, they'd still not replace BRDs in parties. The closest I get to challenging BRDs and CORs, is that I want more than 30 seconds Crimson Howl (with 8% attack bonus, it may as well be 15 min duration). I also don't want my howls and growls to depend on moon to be good. (Yea, I know, overpowered to be strong more often than once every 5 days)

I'm pretty sure I've never said I wanted to do more damage though. You must be confusing me with someone else. What I want is to do more debuffs with my low level pacts. Like throw out Dispel, without using my global ward timer. Apply blind to the mob, without using up my global rage pact timer.

It just hit me that maybe you meant my spirit changes? In some ways it would of course increase damage, but the main point is to increase my pet selection, rather than my damage. I also believe I have addressed that on Abyssea mobs with absorb modes, you want the BP control rather than timed nukes that might end up during an absorb mode.

Honestly, my Summoner isn't a main by any means, and I feel I know more about it than you might. But, as I said before, this is all just personal opinion.

I think you probably have to have mained it back in the old days to understand. Main healing with cure 3 for 75 levels and all your merits will make you wonder about what the job really is about. You'll start to wonder what would have happened if you didn't have cure 3. What would you do between recasts of Blood Pacts? Melee or spirits seems like the obvious choices, but neither of them would have worked. Stand and watch? It seems unlikely the design of the job was for you to just BP and clean your room until next BP.

It is these events that make you think outside the box. Trying to find the true purpose of the job, which was never achieved due to clumsy design choices. While NIN didn't become what it was intended, it grew into a powerful tank role. SMN on the other hand shrunk instead into a role-less assist healer.

Any day I'd say I agree with you about what the SMN can do. I'm well aware of it, just not interested. I'm interested in what we could be doing, with just some tweaks of values in the code. I've said it since 2004. It would only take ONE WEEK to make SMN perfect by tweaking the range/duration/recast/cost of things. Nothing new is required, just number tweaks.

I'd like to see any other job (or player) claim they'd be happy to never get anything more, just a maintenance of the existing job.