Why is Summoner the most ignored, misunderstood and broken job?

[Dallas]

If you can out DD your own pet, why claim your pet is the DD and yourself not?

Keep going, you are almost there. I do believe the day you put it all together, you won't be complaining about the pieces.

Obviously, the answer to your question is "SMN DD + pet DD > SMN DD > pet DD"

[Soundwave]

I'm actually really curious what you use for your melee set up Dallas would u mind posting your gear of choice etc, for your situations?

Thanks in advanced.

[Arciel]

I'd say I know everything but earthen armor, but I'm sure there is still something left that I don't know. For example I know WHY spirits casting timer reset on assault. They have two modes. Buff mode and Attack mode. But SE stripped all buffing spells of all but light elemental, so buff mode is very hard to notice. Buff mode is about 50% the recast of attack mode. Each time you use Assault, the spirit is set to attack mode AND have to start counting down from max recast. Every time you use Retreat, the spirit is set to buff mode AND have to start counting down from max recast. (Which is half of attack max recast). And that is just one thing I learned all on my own, since nobody had documented this or even talked about it online.

meh. not entirely correct but not exactly wrong. only light spirit comes with different modes, for which its buffing mode is indeed 1/2 its regular casting time. light spirit also has its unique healing mode triggered by low hp. and you can direct who you want light spirit to buff (in buff mode) by facing it at any alliance members.
using assault/retreat simply resets the timer, and this is something you can actually use to your advantage when they start casting AM because you can prematurely reset it before the spell actually casts.

i feel sad for myself and greenith because we'd documented a lot of spirit findings many years ago..
formulas have since been streamlined but we pretty much laid the groundwork.

You are confusing me. Suggesting melee SMN is the opposite of pigeonholing it, since it opens up yet another way to play the job. (Claiming melee SMN is the only way to play, however would fit with what you are saying).

I'm saying that trying to focus on meleeing at all effectively distracts SMN from its current set role, which is nothing in particular, but everything through avatar. And in doing so holds back on the effectiveness of the job because it multiplies its weaknesses - no melee traits, low hp, low def/vit, dead in 1-2hits, without contributing enough back to the table.
I am fully assuming that people are referring to strategic battle situations, where any of this even matters, because a SMN could melee on EP or in Abyssea EXP for all i care and it makes no difference - but on endgame, especially the current top-tier (or any top tier NMs), it is totally not feasible, and thus unacceptable.

As I see it, we are probably of the same opinion. SMN isn't meant to be good at anything, it is supposed to be decent at a lot. Our opinions are a bit split at where "a lot" lies. You seem to be pretty content with "a few wards", "a few rages", "a few favors". I on the other hand think that every part should be an active part of the job.

It is the tiny things like:
- Phalanx scales with level. Why doesn't Nocturnal Shield?
- Aura range is like 10'. Why isn't it far enough to let your pet melee while your backline gets Macc, MAB, Refresh bonuses?
- Spirits takes like 30 seconds with good gear and after assault to cast a random spell. A PUP casts the optimal spell after 25 seconds.

Do the gaps need to be this large? Would we honestly replace all other jobs if we could toss out a 25 damage reduction Nocturnal Shield? Or how about we got a random spell after 15 seconds? You can still get bind > frost > frost > bind cycles, but it at least doesn't take 2 minutes to get through that cycle.

This much I will agree. If the ward pacts actually became more effective, I'm not gonna be one to complain, but so far I don't think changes to them are necessary. I also don't find it realistic to say 'i want every smn ward to still be an effective option' at lv90, because thats kinda unreasonable. It's like BLU demanding that Metallic Body have a use at Lv90.

Effectiveness will come and go. The least they could do is make them still be relevant enough to use.. or scale them a fair bit. Earthen Ward scales (tho tbh i've never tested this past 75), Hastega is still the only AoE magic haste in the game and is ridiculously cheap MP wise, Crimson Howl is still ~9%, and so on. Hell, even our best damage BPs are still relatively cheap mp wise.
Part of the "problem" is that most of these pacts were never designed to scale to begin with, nor did they really need it.
Wards that sucked still suck. Those that were decent are still decent.
No one seriously used Frost or Lightning Armor in the past (cept maybe on Djinn) - I wouldn't expect them to start doing it now, even if its 'better'.

The best part is that no new content is needed. Just sit and change numbers back and forth until you suddenly have some that make sense. Numbers that will make people say "Hey, use that ward! It is helpful".

Though I think some education might be needed also. The Earthen Armor discussion clearly shows that it isn't a bad BP:Ward, if you understand how it works. (Honestly, I still don't get it if is supposed to wear off on when it was effective, or if it lasts the full time and constantly lowers damage taken).

If they do end up tweaking old wards to be more effective, then all it will really be is a bonus, because players can be pretty set in their ways. They usually favor the best buff/debuff of its sort and ignore pretty much everything else.
I'd be happy with a couple of good wards and a couple of good rages because we don't realistically ever need to use all of them in the same situation. People will tend to choose the best ones to use and stick to that. Even with wards. There are a lot more buffs/debuffs we could currently keep up that aren't even bad but don't for various reasons and I doubt this will change unless something drastic changes with the BP timer system.

Anyway, how 'good' they are also majorly depends on what players feel they want to focus on, and what else is available.
If Ramuh's Lv92 ward turns out to be some potent critical attack bonus you'll probably hear melee ask for more of that, especially outside Abyssea.

And I think education is always important, because then people will know how effective various abilities are.

Like how pretty much all of the post 75 wards are great additions. Tidal Roar is 25% attack down, the strongest a player can inflict and lands effortlessly. Earthen Armor makes a world of difference for tanks. Inferno Howl gives ~40ish extra damage enfire, Diamond Storm is like -25 eva, has nothing on Feint but is still useful, and who doesn't like Fleet Wind.

In this sense, I'm quite happy the new additions so far are actually good. But then again, so were Ecliptic Howl and Hastega (yes even the 10% one) back in the day. I don't expect SE to tweak old pacts to be better for 90+ use, but I do expect them to give us entirely new ones, because thats how the job has always been, like a huge deck of cards and you'll pick a small set to play in your hand.

What I'm expecting to see once the current set of celestial avatar wards is done, is...

1) new physical rage pacts.
we don't necessarily need them given how the 70 BPs are still fine, but we could use them as a bonus.
if not as new stronger options, additional variety options.
- a piercing dmg BP
- an aoe physical dmg BP (doesn't even have to be very strong)
- physical rage BPs that can create Lv3 skillchains. considering quite a few other jobs can crap out self lv3 skillchains, and ws well more than once a minute, avatars should by now be able to contribute in some way.

2) new healing pacts.
Healing Ruby III or something. II doesn't cut it anymore.

3) a new avatar.
this might sound like wishful thinking, but I'm not going to rule it out entirely - 1 new avatar that isn't available only during astral flow would add another say 3-4 rage and wards to the arsenal that may not necessarily be useful. but honestly, I just want a light elemental avatar that doesn't suck at nuking (sorry Carby, but you can just still to healing).

edit: just to add, Fafnir is not HNM caliber anymore, nor is he even much of any challenge (wasn't even at lv75. Nidhogg i'll give u), especially not when a good number of jobs can easily solo him...
so I hope you're not serious in using him as support for the SMN meleeing anyway argument.

[Razushu]

I'll admit, you lost me. Are we talking only avatars, or comparing pet jobs with avatars?

If it were only avatars, I'd kindly disagree that it is rare to call "50% PDT" a melee trait, even if it helps. If you were saying we have 50% PDT and BST/PUP/DRG have melee traits, then I'm not sure what it means except that is how it is.

I'm talking about avatars as we are a pet job solely dependant on our pets for real contribution.

I'm refering to the frontline survivabilty part of my "They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet" of my point. -50% PDT is a trait that enables them to stay alive front line for a longer time. This is also 1/3 of my point if you compare a Summoner to a BST/PUP/DRG(player not the pet) they match 3/3.

1)The high level weapon skills from their given class natively
BST/DRG/PUP all get this.
Avatars get Blood Pacts which are pretty much equivalent to WS
SMN stops getting BPs at Spirit Taker

2)They have Higher melee stats
BST/DRG/PUP all get decent melee stats
Avatar performs well naked(does need some way to boost DoT/stats)
SMN is lowest tier in all but DEX here(don't get too excited though we're second lowest DEX in game)


3)They have job traits/abilities for melee, front line survivablity as well as dumping their emnity on thier pet
BST/DRG/PUP all get various traits/abilities for these 3 criteria i.e Snarl(dumping their emnity on thier pet), Martial arts(melee), evasion bonus(frontline survivability)
SMN gets none
Avatar has -50% PDT(frontline survivability)

[Dallas]

I'm actually really curious what you use for your melee set up Dallas would u mind posting your gear of choice etc, for your situations?

Thanks in advanced.

I assume the only part you need is the TP build haste set. Myrkr WS build is pure +MP. I switch to perp between fights. I macro in standard gear for physical (common) and magical pacts (rare). I stack SMN magic and/or Bonus TP for Wards.

TP build: Currently 22% Haste, -38% enmity

* = potentially augmentable gear, future update

Haste: 23% potential

Goliard Body 4%
Tern set 6%
Aug pants 3%
Zelus Tiara 8%
Nash Hands 1%
Nash Feet 1% (missing)

Enmity:
Novia -7%
Metanoia Ring -5%
Goliard Body -5%
Lore Boots -5%
Leisure Musk -3%
Nash Hands -4%
Pax Grip -4%
Merits -5%

Other:
Brutal Earring
Rajas Ring

Atma: RR/SS/AA (solo) RR/SS/VV (party) It's better to have regain in a party since there's more downtime.

Subjob: /SAM is too dangerous, I go /WHM for utility.

Melee Merits: 5 -enmity, 8 staff, 5 crit

You notice I have removed most Acc/Att gear. That's for survival only. I'd fill in ALL missing haste gear with Lore gear. Because our hate is so bad, I'd rather miss completely than hit without -enmity. Accuracy is still awesome in Abyssea. If SE fixes hate, I will go back to accuracy and /SAM.

[Arciel]

taking into account master primarily, I think you missed mentioning some of the more important points for front-line survivability on pet based jobs.

VIT: DRG > BST / PUP > SMN
DRG: 2nd highest in game
BST, PUP: 3rd
SMN: 5th (last)

HP: DRG / BST > PUP > SMN
somewhere along these lines anyway.

Evasion skill: PUP> BST > DRG> SMN
PUP: B BST: C DRG: C- SMN: E

the rest have secondary defensive skills as well.
All 3 have Parry, PUP has Guard and BST has Shield, even if at E rank.

Traits
DRG has crit def bonus
BST has killer effects (yes it counts especially if you're being targeted, also enhanced by Gausape)
PUP has eva bonus 4 (+48 eva, 2nd highest in game) and crit def bonus

Defensive/Curative Abilities
DRG: Healing Breath, Restoring Breath
BST: none
PUP: Cures from automaton, Role-Reversal
SMN: 3 healing pacts, a bunch of defense pacts scattered across avatars.

Hate-control abilities:
DRG: high jump, super jump
BST: Snarl
PUP: Ventriloquy

Armor
DRG can wear heavy armor not just for melee stats, but also better def.
BST has access to some of them
PUP is mostly cloth and leather class, but can fall back upon its much higher evasion.

so in terms of front-line survivability.. SMN will no doubt end up at the bottom of the 4. maybe you'll only take dmg from AoEs, but that is more than enough to kill you, not to mention the fact that an increasing number of NMs have normal attacks that are AoE already.

[Xerius]

1. SMN as rare as COR? Haha, no. SMN has never, ever been as rare as COR; as I recall, COR has been the least-played job in the game since its release (yes, less played than PUP). The most recent Vana'diel Census that I've seen, 2009, shows twice as many SMNs as CORs.

That's only because of the fact that SMN burns were used for Kirin

[Dallas]

maybe you'll only take dmg from AoEs, but that is more than enough to kill you

Funny, in 5 years, this has not magically become true.

[Razushu]

Funny, in 5 years, this has not magically become true.

are you sure you're playing SMN?

[Karbuncle]

I don't think as a SMN i've ever been 1 shotted by an AoE. That seems like a problem for Tarus.

I keep up Stoneskin/Blink/etc at all times when i play, If i get hurt too bad I'll move back.

Particularly dangerous mobs not considered (Ultimas BOOM, etc)