hate cap raise.

[Darka]

Yes.

Other DD jobs and "Non-Tank" Jobs should not be able to Tank Safely. That's the reason "Tanks" exist, otherwise they're just useless classes.

It's not really as simple as that. If they killed off every other jobs defensive capabilities, we're back to 2005, PLD is the only tank, and DDs have to hold back on their damage, resulting in slower kills, and effectively killing lowman. I'm pretty sure the community would have a pretty negative reaction to that, which rules out that option.
The only two real options to make PLD useful again, is to give them higher offensive abilities, or overhaul the entire enmity system.

[Himrik]

I've posted this in a PLD thread:
I think enmity gained by damage should be modified by target max HP. After all, enmity loss already works that way.

Doing a 3k WS shouldn't bother mobs with 100k HP as much as mobs with 5 or 10k.
And if DD generate less enmity, real tanks will surely reappear, as healers will still generate the same enmity

[Lazus]

I've posted this in a PLD thread:
I think enmity gained by damage should be modified by target max HP. After all, enmity loss already works that way.

Doing a 3k WS shouldn't bother mobs with 100k HP as much as mobs with 5 or 10k.
And if DD generate less enmity, real tanks will surely reappear, as healers will still generate the same enmity

No clue if that would work, but it does sound like a good idea.

[Akujima]

It's not really as simple as that. If they killed off every other jobs defensive capabilities, we're back to 2005, PLD is the only tank, and DDs have to hold back on their damage, resulting in slower kills, and effectively killing lowman. I'm pretty sure the community would have a pretty negative reaction to that, which rules out that option.
The only two real options to make PLD useful again, is to give them higher offensive abilities, or overhaul the entire enmity system.

"Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD". If this were to happen, PLD would be crazily overpowered. And if the "Tank jobs" got amazing DD capability AND survivability, you would see the other DD being left out of every event, and everyone would just be playing the Tank jobs, because they survive longer and don't have to hold back DD, they would not have to worry about dying from pulling hate.

(The FFXI community has a habit of making certain jobs/classes "bandwagon" and popular, this in turn weeds out other jobs as "sucky" which get left out and over shadowed. This is why the Dev team should never have allowed the community to design and mold the jobs to their playstyle!)

Multiple jobs should be able to tank effectively, but not as well and not while still being primarily DD at the same time. Being capable of doing it requires being able to survive though ones definition of "safely" may very. I remember the days when nobody would do anything without one specific job tanking and I dislike that scenario almost as much as my pld not being useful.

Multiple tanks = good.
Making the tank job the only tank in town = bad.
"The tank job" can't tank the latest content = super bad.
Please remember this dev team. :x

No matter what changes come there always seems to be at least 1 job left unwanted, and after a few updates all we've done is changed which is shunned. Maybe that will never stop...Ugh.

Going to be real interesting seeing how they intend to balance things without changing enmity or using damage nerfs or giving every DD an enmity douse like ability.

Yes, this is correct.

PLD should NOT be the only tank. And and as said above "Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD".

If FFXI has 20 jobs, then:

3 jobs should fit the role of "Tank". (These jobs while tanking, should NOT do crazy amounts of DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Main Heals"
3 jobs should fit the role of "Support Jobs" (brd, cor and dnc, so this is already covered)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Nuker" (Casting DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Ranged Attacker"
and the rest of the jobs should be either "Hybrid" or straight out "Melee DD". (But these jobs should not excel at everything they're capable of doing. EX: MNK is given an ability to "Tank" well, this ability should then therefore cut-off MNK's DD output significantly enough. Not doing this creates imbalance in game design!)


So yea... I stopped posting long things like this awhile ago, don't know why I bothered now... but anyways. These forums really make me /sigh...

[Darka]

"Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD". If this were to happen, PLD would be crazily overpowered. And if the "Tank jobs" got amazing DD capability AND survivability, you would see the other DD being left out of every event, and everyone would just be playing the Tank jobs, because they survive longer and don't have to hold back DD, they would not have to worry about dying from pulling hate.

Semantics, I don't care to argue with you about aesthetic reasons why DDs shouldn't tank. DDs tank, damage is the best form of enmity, don't blame me, blame whoever designed the enmity system and didn't use a crystal ball to see the future and discover the higher level cap and atma introduction.
That and "increasing their offensive abilities" does not =/= make them stronger than all other jobs.

This is why the Dev team should never have allowed the community to design and mold the jobs to their playstyle!)

Yes they should have been dictators and ban any player trying to do anything original with their job, or respond with an immediate nerf. /sarcasm

PLD should NOT be the only tank. And and as said above "Tank" should not be a synonym with "DD".

Again, semantics, the mechanics dictate that x works better than y, so use x. I send you back to read my "overhaul of the enmity system" comment again.

If FFXI has 20 jobs, then:

3 jobs should fit the role of "Tank". (These jobs while tanking, should NOT do crazy amounts of DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Main Heals"
3 jobs should fit the role of "Support Jobs" (brd, cor and dnc, so this is already covered)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Nuker" (Casting DD)
3 jobs should fit the role of "Ranged Attacker"
and the rest of the jobs should be either "Hybrid" or straight out "Melee DD". (But these jobs should not excel at everything they're capable of doing. EX: MNK is given an ability to "Tank" well, this ability should then therefore cut-off MNK's DD output significantly enough. Not doing this creates imbalance in game design!)

Pigeon-holing, you think jobs should only be capable of strict things? BLMs nuke, and that is all? BRDs sing and that is all? THF trick attacks and nothing else? What a fun game, I don't think you understand the "creates imbalance in game design" notion yourself. Enforce things like this and kiss lowman content goodbye, we're back to 2005 with PLD and a bunch of required supportive jobs to maintain said PLD. Again, issues with tanking are related to the 10 year old design of the enmity system.

These forums really make me /sigh...

Sweet we agree.

[Swords]

I remember when it was a team effort to keep hate on Paladins because they just weren't built to deal damage, but to take damage. These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

Agreed, I remember it was a requirement for most if not all DD's to have /THF leveled to SATA onto whoever was tanking. However, this was before people figured out just how fast they could zerg stuff with X-hit weapons, haste, march setups and before SAM, /SAM, and 2h-weapons got a big boost.

The additional damage boost people used to get off of SC's and MB used to help suppliment the damage difference between the zerg tactics, but unfortunately SATA melees, SC, and MBs have become lost arts due to SE catering new gear and job adjustments to the zerg frenzy.

Pigeon-holing, you think jobs should only be capable of strict things? BLMs nuke, and that is all? BRDs sing and that is all? THF trick attacks and nothing else? What a fun game, I don't think you understand the "creates imbalance in game design" notion yourself. Enforce things like this and kiss lowman content goodbye, we're back to 2005 with PLD and a bunch of required supportive jobs to maintain said PLD. Again, issues with tanking are related to the 10 year old design of the enmity system.

Jobs are and will always be pigeon-holed by people in this game. I cannot tell you how many times people would bitch if you even tried to step out of their "pesudo-perfect" setup, and the few times you might get away with it you had to pray something did not go wrong or it ALL came down to your fault reguardless of how incompetit other players may be.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There's a difference between being forced to perform only one action and doing something which isn't optimal. Having a job being only able to do one role is pigeon-holing and bad for the game. Except for some melee DD jobs (ref: Drg, even then, they can shed hate with jumps or depending on sub, help with healing) most jobs in the game can perform at least 2 roles to varying degress of effectiveness.

[GlobalVariable]

I remember when it was a team effort to keep hate on Paladins because they just weren't built to deal damage, but to take damage. These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

Agreed, I remember it was a requirement for most if not all DD's to have /THF leveled to SATA onto whoever was tanking.

That has been dead long before the current situation. Even well before the popularity of /sam and the 2h update. Go onto any community site forum and try to advocate war/thf...Good luck.

And there are plenty of times hate production from damage will be so high that TA won't mean a thing anyway. As it is melee's stand around doing nothing long enough thanks to the proc system. Saying it is because we don't hold back or don't "work" for hate control is simply nonsense.

[Swords]

That has been dead long before the current situation. Even well before the popularity of /sam and the 2h update. Go onto any community site forum and try to advocate war/thf...Good luck.

And there are plenty of times hate production from damage will be so high that TA won't mean a thing anyway. As it is melee's stand around doing nothing long enough thanks to the proc system. Saying it is because we don't hold back or don't "work" for hate control is simply nonsense.

I'm by no means advocating usage of /THF on DD's in this day and era, it was merely stating so though it might still have it's uses in certain situations. It's really all in how the game was originally designed, intended, and adjusted, back in 2004/05 a balanced group that worked with each other played a major part in success in experience and event settings. You of course ran into bandwagon jobs back then with Arrow/Mana burn parties, but a balanced party had a bigger standing then than it does now.

SE has strayed away from that trying to make the game more suitable for the casual player, and I'm fine with the direction they've taken in some areas and not so much in others. I know not everyone is going to be happy with everything and neither will I, but it would be nice to have a more teamwork oriented environment that played more to the strengths and weakness of each other like back then, instead of singling out half the jobs available for being seen as useless because of one or two design flaws even though they're still entirely viable.

[Leonlionheart]

The problem isn't necesarily enmity as it is now, but rather the fact that we don't need PLD or general tanks to kill things.

Voidwatch gave us a glimpse into how fights would be if every other MNK couldn't tank the hardest boss the game currently has to offer, and I assume it will continue to be that way.

Simply put: If there was an opponent that REQUIRED a job with the survivability of a PLD to tank, the playerbase would find a way to defeat it.

(Although with perfect defense and so many Ukonvasara WARs around there's no way in hell we'll be needing true tanks anytime soon)

P.S.@Swords: You probably get this a lot, but Bog Body and Moogles take extremely high damage (Over *2.0).