hate cap raise.

[Francisco]

Again, outside of Abyssea - you don't have unlimited MP.

You don't need to take away the option of MNK, NIN and THF tanks to make PLD tanking viable. And saying PLD should be the only tank is like saying DRG should be the only DD and BRD should be the only support.

[Alukat]

we should go back to the old, 2 plds and every dd /thf and sata one of the plds method

[Mightyg]

A few things could be done to get plds back a little more balanced.

Increase their damage over time.

Enlight should deal more damage based on MND/magic defense bonus. It should also cause more VE.

Improve weaponskills in general across the board. (this is supposedly being done) Cater mods to be more in line with defensive stats.

Add a high chance to counter to Rampart.

Give pld a Provoke Equivalent JA.

Get rid of Holy Circle and Sepulcher and make them slightly weaker, always on parts of the Undead Killer trait. (do this for all jobs while you're at it.)

Shield bash should do damage proportional to your current defense. 50% bonus on things like aegis, Bash Effects 25% bonus.

Augment Cover to be a reverse Trick Attack, allowing an opportunity for teammates to weaponskill or cast behind you, granting you the enmity.

Cause STR VIT to reduce enmity loss when taking melee damage
Cause INT AGI to increase enmity loss when taking melee damage

Fix divine magic spells to be more in line with black magic, less spells, higher cooldowns, cheaper mp cost, faster cast time. This would be advantageous to whm and pld alike without having the breadth and flexibility of BLM SCH. MND/Magic Defense Bonus mods.

Remove Magic Defense Bonus and Make MND on gear grant .5% magic defense bonus. Boost MND effect on cure potency. Throw in .25% magic evasion per MND point as well.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Again, outside of Abyssea - you don't have unlimited MP.

You don't need to take away the option of MNK, NIN and THF tanks to make PLD tanking viable. And saying PLD should be the only tank is like saying DRG should be the only DD and BRD should be the only support.

And Sam would still be a better tank than Pld outside Abyssea. It's fairly obvious you don't believe other jobs can tank when pre abyssea Pld was still not very useful other than a safety net - the more the rest of the group sucked, the better Pld was at tanking.

[Taint2]

You really need to think outside Abyssea for this - since this is where the game is going to be headed anyway.

Thinking "stacking -damage gear" should be the only way someone is able to tank is kind of backwards 2005 thinking.

As of right now, there's three main methods of tanking: shield/-damage (PLD), evasion/shadows (NIN, THF), counter (MNK). Outside Abyssea, MNK, NIN and THF lose a good deal of their defensive capabilites (largely from Gnarled Horn). PLD loses complete control of the fight inside Abyssea. Outside Abyssea, PLD can mitigate damage much better than a MNK, NIN or THF (especially if they have an Aegis).

Maybe inside Abyssea a DRK can freely tank due WHM having a near infinite MP pool... and most things die in under 5 minutes anyway. But take away the absurd refresh from WHM, and make it a 20-30 minute fight (like on par with Nidhogg in 2005), that DRK is going to be absolutely destroyed if he's getting hit for 300-500 per swing... compared with a PLD taking 150-200 per swing on non-shield blocks, a MNK countering ~65-75% of attacks, or a NIN blinking/evading 80-95% of attacks.

You do realize that DRK,SAM,WAR were all better tanks then PLD well before Abyssea? I've seen decked out PLDs emoquit from not being able to hold hate at Khim,Cerb,Tia etc from DDs.

Looking into the future, huge MP pools are not going away, you will see the addition of a RDM or BRD in tank ptys but, mages can get 15/mp+ tic outside with just a little more support.

[Mirage]

Again, outside of Abyssea - you don't have unlimited MP.

You don't need to take away the option of MNK, NIN and THF tanks to make PLD tanking viable. And saying PLD should be the only tank is like saying DRG should be the only DD and BRD should be the only support.

Actually you do, you just need a support job with you instead of using atmas. You can still get like 20 mp/tick.

[Arcon]

Enmity isn't the problem for PLD, it's the durability of other jobs that are killing it.

Both are problems and just as bad, I might add. Enmity is a major problem and definitely needs fixing, even completely outside of PLD, the system itself is flawed. And other jobs don't tank nearly as well outside of Abyssea. Mages can still get somewhat high refresh, but people also take a lot more damage and have a lot lower HP (and mages a lot lower MP). Some jobs can still get away with it (THF has always performed pretty well, NIN also, MNK may have it a bit worse), others can't do anything anymore (WAR tank with cure spam? Not a chance).

[Vold]

I remember when it was a team effort to keep hate on Paladins because they just weren't built to deal damage, but to take damage. These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

[Darka]

Both are problems and just as bad, I might add. Enmity is a major problem and definitely needs fixing, even completely outside of PLD, the system itself is flawed. And other jobs don't tank nearly as well outside of Abyssea. Mages can still get somewhat high refresh, but people also take a lot more damage and have a lot lower HP (and mages a lot lower MP). Some jobs can still get away with it (THF has always performed pretty well, NIN also, MNK may have it a bit worse), others can't do anything anymore (WAR tank with cure spam? Not a chance).

I was saying enmity accumulation isn't the problem. We've had this discussion before. Even if PLD caps hate, the point is there's no reason to use one since other jobs can tank and deal more damage. That's what's killing PLD. Also, they take the same damage inside and outside Abyssea unless you're stacking VIT/def atmas for some ridiculous reason, and yes, MNK, WAR/SAM, SAM/WAR, DRK/SAM, DRK/NIN, NIN, BLU and RDM all tanked as well as or better than PLD before Abyssea, it just requires a little more care.

[Catsby]

Inside abyssea the problems are that atmas and bosses are too strong. When they were first introduced the bosses were handled like pre abyssea NMs and were about as difficult. Then people started unlocking lunar abyssites and it seems that in order to compensate bosses were given much stronger abilities and stats.

If atmas weren't as strong and bosses didn't have so much HP/overpowered abilities then part of the problem would have been solved. It still doesn't change the fact that the hate system needs an update though.