hate cap raise.

[Malamasala]

Both are problems and just as bad, I might add. Enmity is a major problem and definitely needs fixing, even completely outside of PLD, the system itself is flawed

What is so flawed with a system that says "If you go all out, you get punched by the monster"? It is worked exactly as intended. And the intention is that either you team up with DRGs, THFs, BSTs, PUPs, SMNs that have hate shedding and shared hate, or you go with WAR, MNK, SAM, RNG, DRK and hold back. Just a shame people already 2004 decided that "to hell with using hate shedding jobs, all out zerg!!!!".

[Neisan_Quetz]

Hate shedding is ultimately pointless other than to survive right that moment when you reach the hate cap again in 2 minutes or less.

[Mirage]

Not getting attacked for 2 minutes is pretty helpful pretty often, and this is one of the biggest reasons why such abilities are used in the first place, so I wouldn't really call them pointless at all.

[Darka]

What is so flawed with a system that says "If you go all out, you get punched by the monster"? It is worked exactly as intended. And the intention is that either you team up with DRGs, THFs, BSTs, PUPs, SMNs that have hate shedding and shared hate, or you go with WAR, MNK, SAM, RNG, DRK and hold back. Just a shame people already 2004 decided that "to hell with using hate shedding jobs, all out zerg!!!!".

It's flawed because it maintains DD jobs as primary tanks, over actual "tank jobs". PLDs will swear up and down that at 75 they had no problem holding hate, which if any of them have a grasp of enmity mechanics, would know that's just not true. You could hold hate at 75 because other jobs intentionally held back. Now these other jobs have so many defensive abilities they don't need to hold back. So PLD doesn't really have a hope. Even if they do cap their hate, they still offer 0 to the fight alone, which is why it's broken. Atmas were really just nails on the coffin, the problem existed already.
Fixing it isn't easy either, it would likely require an entire overhaul of the enmity algorithms.

[KingGiddra]

These days people just want SE to do the work for them so they don't have to make any effort. Just make PLD stronger. Yeah, that's the trick. And they keep doing that, making jobs stronger. And it unbalances other aspects. And it keeps repeating itself. All because people want to skip out on playing the game with their minds and just TP spam shit. Good job.

I created an account to post just to reply to the stupidity that keeps being regurgitated about the "good old days."

So in many players minds, "TP spamming" is playing the game without thought and is completely asinine in the hypothetically "correct" way to play the game. Just for me to understand, playing the game the proper way as a damage dealer involves me turned around from the bosses actually physically doing absolutely nothing at all.

Let me go over that one more time. The correct way to play a Warrior in a party is to wait for the PLD (or whatever tank is currently in vogue) to generate a sufficient amount of enmity (completely arbitrary as it depends on his skill at the job) and then spin around and attack for just a bit until it "feels" like I'm going to pull.

This is playing the game with my mind?

Now I was criticizing the old thought processes of players, but I'd also criticize the enmity system itself for forcing people to think that not playing the game is even, or should even be an option. The system itself shouldn't foster gameplay that revolves around extended (arguably even any) amounts of time doing nothing at all. That is not to say healers should be constantly casting or anything since they are constantly focused on the bars, but if I'm a damage dealer I should be dealing damage. There should be a system in place that allows me to constantly deal damage. I should always be paying attention to the fight around me and doing my job. The tank in place should have ample abilities to keep the mob on himself and unless I'm going completely buckwild with 2Hr Sekkanokis, I shouldn't pull (this is vastly simplified from what I really mean, but just an example). I could go into further detail about various other flaws I see, but that goes beyond the scope of my response.

[Alderin]

Hate really shouldn't have a cap in the first place.

It most certainly should. Especially with the very large number of hate-reset mobs there are.

Tank on a mob with a lot of HP > WHM cure after cure after cure > Hate reset > WHM has a ridiculous amount of hate generated from the healing > No cap means it will take a lonnnng time for the tank to generate enough hate - meanwhile your healer is dead.

*edit* I do realise that they have modified hate generated from healing etc and it has definitely improved, however without a cap - when fighting the higher tier nm's you would run into this issue, especially if the reset hate TP has been used on the tank multiple times after getting hate back. The NM would then have to reset hate on the healer in order for the tank to pull hate back off them.

I believe the best solution to this would be slight job adjustments modifying hate gain on particular actions. Perhaps (as mentioned) changed the way Provoke works and instead of just increasing hate for yourself - it would reduce a bit of enmity of players within a certain AOE range upto 20' yalms (or something similar).

I think one of the original ideas of giving THF a reverse Accomplice ability to transfer an amount of hate from them and dump it on the tank is a great idea.

Perhaps for PLD - the use of cover reduces the enmity from the player that they are covering instead of themselves. The damage dealt to the PLD while covering comes off the covered player's enmity.

For NIN - Perhaps an AOE ninjutsu spell that grants the effect of Pax to party members in an AOE radius.

MNK - Give Chi blast similar properties to Provoke and lowering the timer considerably.

WAR - Provoke as mentioned above.

WHM - A JA that annuls all enmity gained from the next curing spell. Or simply give them a "Pax" spell (similar to that found in gnostics drink).

Just a few ideas at least...

[Kizmitt]

All I know a Pld dose not tank as well as a Sam DD's Hate or no hate the balance is not the same just like a whm should be able to stay alive for forever and kill nothing we need to quit looking at each job as a swiss army knife and ascend the roles of each job exploit thier true nature
The idea of Pld was to get beat on then why have Mnk ect for variety sakes? really? and yeah a Pld should have provoke a War should not but remember in the beginning there was no Nin or Pld or Dnc I'm just saying
the system is not perfect yeah but allow the job to do the intended puposes a Mnk should be a DD just cause your a galk Mnk dose not mean you should be able to live longer then a Pld or a War in Pld Armor
its no dif its like giving a Rdm all the aga blm spells and the 5 and 6 whm spells then wtf do we need the other jobs for

[Alderin]

PLD should not have provoke. That's what Subjobs are for.

But I agree with your RDM comment. It is stupid to give RDM the -aga's and C5, C6. Besides they aren't healers they are enfeeblers. Yes they can heal - but it's not their main purpose. Same with aga's - keep that for the BLM's. Their job is to nuke - so they should have some exclusivity at that.

However I agree with the overall direction this thread is going. I believe the enmity system doesn't exactly need a rework - jobs just need to be adjusted to allow for a little bit more hate control then they currently have. Tanks should be able to reduce enmity from other people while increasing hate themselves. THF's who used to be the masters of hate control are still somewhat limited at that.

[Akujima]

Unfortunately that would just be the same thing, regardless of PLDs defense, other jobs can still tank safely.

Yes.

Other DD jobs and "Non-Tank" Jobs should not be able to Tank Safely. That's the reason "Tanks" exist, otherwise they're just useless classes.

[GlobalVariable]

Other DD jobs and "Non-Tank" Jobs should not be able to Tank Safely. That's the reason "Tanks" exist, otherwise they're just useless classes.

Multiple jobs should be able to tank effectively, but not as well and not while still being primarily DD at the same time. Being capable of doing it requires being able to survive though ones definition of "safely" may very. I remember the days when nobody would do anything without one specific job tanking and I dislike that scenario almost as much as my pld not being useful.

Multiple tanks = good.
Making the tank job the only tank in town = bad.
"The tank job" can't tank the latest content = super bad.
Please remember this dev team. :x

No matter what changes come there always seems to be at least 1 job left unwanted, and after a few updates all we've done is changed which is shunned. Maybe that will never stop...Ugh.

Going to be real interesting seeing how they intend to balance things without changing enmity or using damage nerfs or giving every DD an enmity douse like ability.