Reviving PvP & Ballista

[Ketaru]

The reason I say PvP requires more skill is because when competing against actual people who know wtf they are doing, you are no longer on a single set strategy like you are against most HNMs. PvP requires quick adaptation to constantly changing situations which you might not always be ready for. If you can adapt to your situation, you can overcome it. You can't read up Wiki on how another person might react to your actions. If it were me, I would make sure your HP hits 0.

That is certainly correct. But I think the real reason people don't particularly care about PvP is that it has very low applicability to the rest of the game.

Ballista discourages gear swapping while the entire rest of the game is built on it, for example. It's rough enough for most people to have to leave everything at home so their macros don't accidentally switch into other gear. But to also have to have a gear set that can even run contrary to how they gear for the rest of the game.

And generally you aren't gunning for moving targets, unless you're doing a kited fights. Even if it is kited, you can generally predict what direction the target is going in. A BLM could time his nukes accordingly. In Ballista, a person will see a BLM casting spells and they will generally do one of two things: switch targets and do something to stop the BLM, or run in the opposite direction. This is not typical mob AI behavior.

You can learn a lot about the mechanics of your job through Ballista, the various benefits and disadvantages of certain playstyles, the downsides to abilities or spells you generally never have to think about, or have an element of surprise against players who don't know the full capabilities of certain jobs simply because they never really see it in practice in the rest of the game (Ballista is the only reason I have Feral Howl merits capped for BST. It's like an instant ability Stun that ignores shadows and is not a spell so it can be used on the run).

But a lot of that knowledge really goes wasted in the rest of the game because- let's face it- the AI in this game is generally very stupid. It's the AI that casts Silena on itself when Silence wears off (I haven't tried it yet, but I bet they cast Stona on themselves if you cast Break on them too). It's the AI that casts Sleep on players that have DoT on. It's the AI that casts single target nukes on players that can clearly put up Utsusemi. It is by the grace of simply being overpowered that the toughest enemies in this game are tough. They aren't actually capable of outsmarting players.

In the rest of the game, you can use Retaliation in good faith that the mob is not going to suddenly disengage and starting firing off spells or ammo at you. You can use shadows knowing that it is not going to intentionally use Area spells to clear them. You can be a pet job knowing that the mob doesn't actually know the master is the easier of the 2 units to kill. You can rely on enmity to keep your mob away from your healers. You can count on it that mobs don't predict how much TP you have so they can sidestep you or put up their defenses at just the right moment.

Unfortunately, it's really everything that makes Ballista a unique and enriching experience that also makes it unapproachable to the majority of the player base. We, on Siren, were lucky enough to have a few uncapped matches recently because one player took the initiative to shout and start sending /tells around to people who were dedicated Ballista players prior to the level cap increase. And for that, I am grateful to him. I was just beginning to wonder why I still even play Final Fantasy XI, since I always used to say I would lose all reason to play if Ballista died. Up until now, Ballista hasn't taken place in almost a year and a half.

ukko's fury one shots people even with giant's drink on lol

Somebody's not wearing enough PDT.

[Alhanelem]

The mog sack/satchel made it a lot easier to stow macro gear without haivng to go to the moghouse or modify your macros. The only real reason for this restriction though, is because macro swapping gear would have been abuseable to make it difficult for people to target you. If only they could *cough cough* find a better solution for *cough* blinking, that restriction could be removed.

You offered some good input.

I suggested revamping the schedule, in order to give people more of what they want (e.g. the matches most people play) to increase the odds of there being a desireable match in player's prime times. 60 caps still happen sometimes on shiva, especially after the server merge. But they would probably happen a lot more often if they came up during the right times.

Cross server events, though almost sure not to be implemented, would also help Ballista a lot- It worked wonders for WoW when there wasn't always enough players on a server doing the first big PvP battleground for a match to start.

60 caps are significantly more balanced than uncapped is

Completely, totally, utterly, unequivocally false. It is not more balanced, nor is it less balanced. The metagame is different, and some jobs get a little stronger while others weaken a bit, but the end result is the same. Gear is no more of an issue at the uncapped tier, because there are still haves and have-nots for level 60 (especially since many people no longer carry gear for lower levels anymore other than their AF which is probably stowed on storage NPCs).

[Dart]

relics, empy, kraken clubs (Still quite useful in ballista). say otherwise.

[Dart]

That is certainly correct. But I think the real reason people don't particularly care about PvP is that it has very low applicability to the rest of the game.

Ballista discourages gear swapping while the entire rest of the game is built on it, for example. It's rough enough for most people to have to leave everything at home so their macros don't accidentally switch into other gear. But to also have to have a gear set that can even run contrary to how they gear for the rest of the game.

And generally you aren't gunning for moving targets, unless you're doing a kited fights. Even if it is kited, you can generally predict what direction the target is going in. A BLM could time his nukes accordingly. In Ballista, a person will see a BLM casting spells and they will generally do one of two things: switch targets and do something to stop the BLM, or run in the opposite direction. This is not typical mob AI behavior.

You can learn a lot about the mechanics of your job through Ballista, the various benefits and disadvantages of certain playstyles, the downsides to abilities or spells you generally never have to think about, or have an element of surprise against players who don't know the full capabilities of certain jobs simply because they never really see it in practice in the rest of the game (Ballista is the only reason I have Feral Howl merits capped for BST. It's like an instant ability Stun that ignores shadows and is not a spell so it can be used on the run).

But a lot of that knowledge really goes wasted in the rest of the game because- let's face it- the AI in this game is generally very stupid. It's the AI that casts Silena on itself when Silence wears off (I haven't tried it yet, but I bet they cast Stona on themselves if you cast Break on them too). It's the AI that casts Sleep on players that have DoT on. It's the AI that casts single target nukes on players that can clearly put up Utsusemi. It is by the grace of simply being overpowered that the toughest enemies in this game are tough. They aren't actually capable of outsmarting players.

In the rest of the game, you can use Retaliation in good faith that the mob is not going to suddenly disengage and starting firing off spells or ammo at you. You can use shadows knowing that it is not going to intentionally use Area spells to clear them. You can be a pet job knowing that the mob doesn't actually know the master is the easier of the 2 units to kill. You can rely on enmity to keep your mob away from your healers. You can count on it that mobs don't predict how much TP you have so they can sidestep you or put up their defenses at just the right moment.

Unfortunately, it's really everything that makes Ballista a unique and enriching experience that also makes it unapproachable to the majority of the player base. We, on Siren, were lucky enough to have a few uncapped matches recently because one player took the initiative to shout and start sending /tells around to people who were dedicated Ballista players prior to the level cap increase. And for that, I am grateful to him. I was just beginning to wonder why I still even play Final Fantasy XI, since I always used to say I would lose all reason to play if Ballista died. Up until now, Ballista hasn't taken place in almost a year and a half.



Somebody's not wearing enough PDT.

only 3 jobs have survived ukko's.

defensively geared rdm, mnk, blu.

Of course if sekka is up i'm self lighting them and 2 shotting even a mnk.

War in uncapped used to be average at best. Now with ukon its a damn monster.

and for the love of god have any of you guys played with fell cleave? I"m always begging a mage to invis me lmao.

also going to give some serious props to masamune sam's. The ability to self light all the time is ridiculous.

[Harukusan]

LvCaps promote new players who haven't had the opportunity to fully gear out their jobs yet, to be able to participate fairly in PvP.

No caps in PvP would make it less popular as a result that everyone would therefore be required to first hit Max Level on whichever job they would decide to play, in order for them to have a fighting chance in Conflict. Not to mention the amount of time it takes to obtain Max Level endgame content gear, they would be too engrossed in PvE, it would make PvP just a burden to participate.

That's why I call for PvP specific equipment, which you obtain from doing PvP.

2 days to get to 90. 3 days after to gear said new job. Of course I'm not implying I want to get rid of capped matches, I rather just do uncapped all the time as a personal preference.

I've never liked 60 caps, let alone anything below that. 60 cap matches a SAM/RNG (for example) can destroy pretty much anyone in a matter of seconds. Utilizing a level cap does not promote balance, it significantly throws it off. Uncapped Ballista, on the other hand, allows for people to commit their full potential, especially in an actual team-based match, and overcome such "unbalance". With no level restriction, any job is capable of handling itself in most situations, barring noobs who don't know the basic mechanics of Conflict, or have any experience against an opponent that actually has the ability to think about their actions before setting them in motion.

Again, I'm not trying to throw off capped Ballista, because it can be fun if you play with friends who are newer to the game. My main hopes/priorities aim toward alleviating the restrictions that hold us from participating whenever we want. It's not hard to come up with 100 Ballista points to open Diorama, but without sufficient players to make an official match happen (in order to build Ballista points) we are stuck at a dead end. No one participates in official matches. No one has access to Diorama. We have no PvP. And screw Brenner.

[Hotsume]

Completely, totally, utterly, unequivocally false. It is not more balanced, nor is it less balanced. The metagame is different, and some jobs get a little stronger while others weaken a bit, but the end result is the same. Gear is no more of an issue at the uncapped tier, because there are still haves and have-nots for level 60 (especially since many people no longer carry gear for lower levels anymore other than their AF which is probably stowed on storage NPCs).

Your only argument here is that people don't carry around 60 cap gear, which is a bit silly. How much will a decent set of 60 cap gear run you (assuming your AF is completely useless), like a few hundred k? The worst that can happen in 60 caps is losing 75% HP as a taru to a fully geared RNG. In uncapped MNK can just run around not giving a fuck unless he gets focused, COR/SAM can get instant GB with WS > meditate > QD x2 > WS, PLD is indestructible, DRK with k. club is broken, SAM can't do shit, RNG with k.club and gun is ridiculous. Again, this is just from my experience at 75 cap, I can't really imagine lv90 ballista.

Comparing 60 caps to uncapped is like comparing Super Street Fighter 4 to MvC3

[Alhanelem]

Your only argument here is that people don't carry around 60 cap gear, which is a bit silly.

No, it's not the only argument. There is still better and worse gear at level 60.

In uncapped MNK can just run around not giving a fuck unless he gets focused

Nonsense, MNK is completely and reasonably stoppable. Not that focusing the threat shouldn't be considered a reasonable strategy in a team game.

COR/SAM can get instant GB with WS > meditate > QD x2 > WS

also nonsense. I've yet to see a COR own anyone like this. It takes time for meditate to give you TP, if you're being WSed by a sam sub, you should know another WS is coming soon and react accordingly.

SAM can't do shit

EXTREME nonsense. SAM is one of the better uncapped jobs, and can make any mage useless if he doesn't KO them outright with Gekko.

DRK with k. club is broken

K.club is rare and if you're talking about souleater, that's nerfed in ballista and isn't as strong. DRK seems to be such a rare sight these days anyway that it doesn't even matter.

PLD is indestructible

No more so at 75~90 than at 60. PLD is SUPPOSED to be hard to kill. But they don't do as much damage.

RNG with k.club and gun is ridiculous

a RNG up close is doing it wrong and is going to get his butt handed to him.

The biggest reason your post is full of crap is because you didn't even mention BLU, which I feel (along with virtually anyone you talk to) is pretty much the strongest job in ballista at ANY level, and is only balanced by lower defenses and lack of range.

The metagame IS different- But it's not unbalanced. It sure is more volatile, but that's part of what I think makes it more interesting. Please don't talk without recent experience, even if you were right about 75 (which you aren't),

Comparing 60 caps to uncapped is like comparing Super Street Fighter 4 to MvC3

I agree. But that doesn't mean one is 'more balanced' than the other.

No one truly likes level caps. That's why all the level caps on anything important were removed. Plus, for me, some of the jobs I play don't really start to shine until after level 60 and lack key abilities needed to be useful/functional at 60.

[Saefinn]

Sign me up. I'll look you up in game as we're on the same server. PvP can be harmless fun so long somebody doesn't take themselves too seriously. Only done PvP as DRK60 vs DNC70, I knew who was gonna win, but I did the whole smack, "I'm gonna win" talk anyway. But hey, I was bored and thought it'd be entertaining.

As for PvE vs PvP, I think it's great to have diversity, I don't think there'd be any kind of invasion of PvP, but it's just something fun that's in the game the more people could enjoy.

[Briarb19]

I posted in another thread before I noticed this one, so I'll post it here as well to see if people have any ideas to share. Some quick fixes that would breathe some life back into it:

An updated schedule. Get rid of or at least reduce low level caps, or even separate them from the much more popular 60/uncap matches.

New zones for both official matches and diorama, like Fort Karugo-Narugo, Nyzul Isle, or even home cities.

Atma and Cruor infused matches. This could make for a lot of fun.

Colosseum Type Matches. Can do anywhere from 1v1 up to 18v18 in quicker, small enclosed areas, maybe in the Colosseum, Throne Room, or Empyreal Paradox.

Incentives. These can be popular without being necessary, game breaking, or effecting PvE. Exp and Cruor is the most obvious one. Ballista specific augmentable gear is another. Let us design our own powerhouse sets for use in ballista only. Another option is to create specially awarded trophy gears which could also be augmentable with uses (like a teleport to all 3 cities or movement speed in all 3 cities). Perhaps even a small system for designing your own award gear's actual graphics. People like to look shiny and unique. Use your trophies to add an augment or update another aspect of the look to your ballista trophy gear (think the evolith gear that failed). By properly designing this award system to take into account player's successes while not dropping the ball for those not as skilled, the system could essentially allow people to create armor that shows off their ballista trophies or just simply look pretty.

I understand the issues with balance, but I think the effort in upkeeping this would be minimal if the Dev team just listens to the community and watches for anything polarizing popping up in uncapped or atma matches.

[Hotsume]

No, it's not the only argument. There is still better and worse gear at level 60.

Nonsense, MNK is completely and reasonably stoppable. Not that focusing the threat shouldn't be considered a reasonable strategy in a team game.

also nonsense. I've yet to see a COR own anyone like this. It takes time for meditate to give you TP, if you're being WSed by a sam sub, you should know another WS is coming soon and react accordingly.

EXTREME nonsense. SAM is one of the better uncapped jobs, and can make any mage useless if he doesn't KO them outright with Gekko.

K.club is rare and if you're talking about souleater, that's nerfed in ballista and isn't as strong. DRK seems to be such a rare sight these days anyway that it doesn't even matter.

No more so at 75~90 than at 60. PLD is SUPPOSED to be hard to kill. But they don't do as much damage.

a RNG up close is doing it wrong and is going to get his butt handed to him.

The biggest reason your post is full of crap is because you didn't even mention BLU, which I feel (along with virtually anyone you talk to) is pretty much the strongest job in ballista at ANY level, and is only balanced by lower defenses and lack of range.

The metagame IS different- But it's not unbalanced. It sure is more volatile, but that's part of what I think makes it more interesting. Please don't talk without recent experience, even if you were right about 75 (which you aren't),

I agree. But that doesn't mean one is 'more balanced' than the other.

No one truly likes level caps. That's why all the level caps on anything important were removed. Plus, for me, some of the jobs I play don't really start to shine until after level 60 and lack key abilities needed to be useful/functional at 60.

BLU is a given, did I have to mention it? About the COR thing, don't forget that QD gives as much TP as a RA while dishing out ridiculous instant free damage. SAM is good against mages (Definitely the anti-RDM) assuming their team isn't smart and doesn't focus the SAM down, I just don't feel that SAM can really stand up to the other melee jobs in PvP unless you play /RNG. 60 cap PLD survivability doesn't even compare to uncapped PLD. For everything else though I guess it's just a matter of opinion. To me, all jobs start to shine by lv60, sure BLU can't rape everything in sight at lv60 but that's not to say it's a bad job by ANY means in 60 caps. And honestly, I would LOVE to be able to argue over today's uncapped ballista, but nobody fucking does it anymore.