ATTN: Dev/Comm. Rep -Relic & Mythic Weapons Reborn {Yes, Please}- レリックとミシックの強化

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Actually, I believe Relic and Mythic GKT are pretty close. I think relic gun is actually better than empy for RNG, Not sure about Bow but SAM can use bow as well so thats a use.

As for as Scythe, not sure since DRK is generally a dead job anyways.

From what ive heard, people make a big deal but only H2H, Gaxe, Katana, Sword ( im pretty sure) and gun for COR are better then their relics.

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Last I checked there wasn't a relic weapon for Corsair. Just a Mythic and an Emp. There is a relic gun but, suffice to say, it's RNG only.

Mandau is better than Twastar if you're just spamming Evisceration but Rudra's Storm stomps all over Mercy Stroke when stacked with SA or TA.

One thing I don't understand is how Blade: Hi can out damage a stacked Mercy Stroke from lvl 90 Mandau.

Mercy Stroke stacked on Sneak Attack is a critical hit with an fTP of 3.75 on a weapon damage of over 200 if you have a good DEX/STR set and RR (SA adds your DEX to your weapon's DMG for that one hit)

Blade: Hi is fTP 4.0 AGI 60% on a DMG 53 weapon.


So why does Blade: Hi consistently out damage a SA'ed Mercy Stroke by a large margin?


One theory I've heard floated is that empyrean WS ignore level difference in the same manner as Y/G/K i.e. they have a bonus to cRatio. After seeing them do basically the exact same damage on everything from EP to HNMs I'm starting to believe that this is the explanation.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

Last I checked there wasn't a relic weapon for Corsair. Just a Mythic and an Emp. There is a relic gun but, suffice to say, it's RNG only.

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Yeah, sure im didnt word it right, but I meant that relic gun is better than empy for RNG., buts great for cor.

Depends on what area, earlier I mentioned there are Relics that are superior outside of Abyssea the 90 Amanomurakumo, Spharai, Annilihator, Mjollnir can beat their Empryean counter parts in a parse. Its also safe to say Relics are also easier to come by now as I know people who are farming a average of 200~300 coins every day with just a group of 4~6 people.

Edit: Outside of Relics the 90 Ryunohige will destroy the 90 Rhongomiant.

Spharai are not better than verethragna anywhere. Same for amano, although amano is much closer to masa than spharai is to vere.

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

Spharai are not better than verethragna anywhere. Same for amano, although amano is much closer to masa than spharai is to vere.

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90 Amano is slightly better or slightly worse depending on what you're fighting, but it's safe to say they're pretty much the same.

and the only empyreans that are better then relics and mythics are great axe, katana, h2h, bow and sword. so 5 out of 14? weapons. OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

Bow is debatable. Ranger is w/e atm.

You get a superior WS on Gandiva but it's superiority and RNGs lack of survivability means you'll likely be eating floor reducing your DPS to tatters. Great for making fireworks though.

Yoichi gets a beefed up Namas which isn't quite Jishnu's but delays your inevitable trip to the ground. Obviously using Barrage can be a quick death sentence but in terms of complementing RNG, the relic options are superior to the Empyreans.

H2H, Katana and Gaxe are better examples of weapons where the Emps totally trash the Relics on all fronts.

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Originally Posted by Rambus

That is like saying sky is good and so much to do because it has 5 zones, no its one event, same princaple, its like saying there is so much to do in dyna because there is 8 zones, things drop, you get items to +1 them.

dyna is one event, abyssea is one event, einherjar is one event (10 zones), limbus is one event ( lost count) and so on.

abyssea is the first time ever we ran into one event outdating everything, doing one thing is boring. abyssea was a nice change yes but it should not be the only thing to do. (even exp for lower levels)

abyssea is also the first time you got exp while farming for gear, abyssea changed FFXI more then you realize i think.

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It's the only thing to do if you let it be...i still regularly enjoy doing limbus...also do sky and sea on occasion...will prolly look into doing salvage again soon as well.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

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You are correct!


edit: also to be clear y/g/k do not ignore level diffference, they have an attack bonus. Or they ignore some % of defense if you want to word it like that.

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Originally Posted by Toren

Depends on what area, earlier I mentioned there are Relics that are superior outside of Abyssea the 90 Amanomurakumo, Spharai, Annilihator, Mjollnir can beat their Empryean counter parts in a parse. Its also safe to say Relics are also easier to come by now as I know people who are farming a average of 200~300 coins every day with just a group of 4~6 people.

Edit: Outside of Relics the 90 Ryunohige will destroy the 90 Rhongomiant.

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See post above mine, but just to chime in, Motenten did detailed calculations on H2h and Spharai loses by 10%+ ouside Abyssea and around 35%+ in Abyssea,

As far as gun is concerned, relic vs empyrean look similar stat-wise but here it ends. Outside abyssea, the extra DD aftermath from Armageddon blows away the +ratt and +racc on Annihilator, but worse still is that not only does Wildfire have an ftp advantage (5.5 to 3.0), but it is elemental not physical thus both reducing the damage reduction. Also note that it gives one the option to add more damage in ear slots and main weapon slots for magic attack bonuses which dwarfs the benefits coronach gains. In Abyssea where one can use +50 MAB atmas x2, it's purely obscene. (Unless you haven't seen it, brewed wildfires easily can hit 50,000+ damage. Nope, brewed coronach's don't come close.)

The same analysis can be done across most of the weapons, and as I mentioned earlier, mythics are even more in need of an upgrade.

This is really not a close issue IMO. Empyreans simply do much more damage and are much much easier to get. Had they been introduced first, there would likely not have been more than 50 relics and mythics ever made.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

90 Amano is slightly better or slightly worse depending on what you're fighting, but it's safe to say they're pretty much the same.

and the only empyreans that are better then relics and mythics are great axe, katana, h2h, bow and sword. so 5 out of 14? weapons. OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

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Continue to post! You routinely provide welcome relief to all of the serious and beneficial posts we all have to wade through.

If you don't understand that a weapon that has BOTH a 3.65 to 3.00 ftp advantage (on jobs that do 60% of their damage via WS), plus a DOT advantage by doing DD as an aftermath (which on sam should be on most of the time), then I can certainly understand why this whole thread leaves you struggling.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Bow is debatable. Ranger is w/e atm.

You get a superior WS on Gandiva but it's superiority and RNGs lack of survivability means you'll likely be eating floor reducing your DPS to tatters. Great for making fireworks though.

Yoichi gets a beefed up Namas which isn't quite Jishnu's but delays your inevitable trip to the ground. Obviously using Barrage can be a quick death sentence but in terms of complementing RNG, the relic options are superior to the Empyreans.

H2H, Katana and Gaxe are better examples of weapons where the Emps totally trash the Relics on all fronts.

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I really agree with most of what you say here, but because rng shoots so slowly, and because many mobs have damage reductions, there are many mobs where rngs pulling hate does not occur because melee are not just doing 2k WS, but also hammering out rapid crits.

At that point, you are comparing roughly a 2,000 Jishnu (5,25 ftp with DD aftermath) to a 1,200 Namas (2.75 ftp+bonus). The advantage for Yoichi when neither rng pulls hate is gone.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

90 Amano is slightly better or slightly worse depending on what you're fighting, but it's safe to say they're pretty much the same.

and the only empyreans that are better then relics and mythics are great axe, katana, h2h, bow and sword. so 5 out of 14? weapons. OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

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Rudra's Storm stomps Mercy Stroke.

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Originally Posted by DrStrangelove

Continue to post! You routinely provide welcome relief to all of the serious and beneficial posts we all have to wade through.

If you don't understand that a weapon that has BOTH a 3.65 to 3.00 ftp advantage (on jobs that do 60% of their damage via WS), plus a DOT advantage by doing DD as an aftermath (which on sam should be on most of the time), then I can certainly understand why this whole thread leaves you struggling.

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If turns out to be correct that empyrean weaponskills have a cRatio bonus then the gap becomes even larger.

that's very easy to test but I don't have an emp to test it with!

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Originally Posted by Bumbeen

that's very easy to test but I don't have an emp to test it with!

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Not really because it doesn't show except on high level mobs where you don't have the damage consistency of lvl 1 rabbits.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Not really because it doesn't show except on high level mobs where you don't have the damage consistency of lvl 1 rabbits.

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Won't be consistent anyway since most of them are crit, but could still do it in a days worth of work or so

Hey Admins June 6th is another update, when are we going to get an update?

[dev1018] Relic & Mythic Adjustments and Refinements

The next version update is scheduled to feature the following adjustments:

Once again I wish someone, community dev, development team, whoever is listening and can answer[SIZE="5"]:([/SIZE]

ABANDON ALL HOPE YE WHO ENTER THIS THREAD

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

90 Amano is slightly better or slightly worse depending on what you're fighting, but it's safe to say they're pretty much the same.

and the only empyreans that are better then relics and mythics are great axe, katana, h2h, bow and sword. so 5 out of 14? weapons. OH NO GUIZ EMPYREANS ARE OVERPOWERED

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Amano is not beating Masa. ODD, 15str, and a WS with not only a higher base ftp but also one that scales with tp gain.

Emp ODD tips the scale on almost every weapon.

Please provide update info Moogle~

Either tell us wait more or no buff; just tell us something please~~~~~~~~~~~

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Originally Posted by Sama

Please provide update info Moogle~

Either tell us wait more or no buff; just tell us something please~~~~~~~~~~~

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Yes, it was so nice to finally check the dev tracker and see something related to relic and mythic weapons. Now if we can get an update on when the implementation of adjustments is planned it would be very much appreciated Community Devs & Development Team :o

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

We are aware that there currently exists a major difference between the strength of Empyrean weapons and that of Relic and Mythic weapons.

In regards to that balance issue, we are planning to make adjustments. We plan to create a higher level of balance by strengthening both Relic and Mythic weapons instead of simply weakening Empyrean weapons.

Along with that, we are also planning to make adjustments to both the time and cost required to create and strengthen Relic and Mythic weapons. Eventually, we would like to even out the differences in the amount of time required to create and strengthen these weapons.

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Hey Gildrein I'm wondering if I can get an answer as to whether or not certain Empyrean weapons which are lacking will also see buffs, or at least certain Empyrean WSs? I know Camate said WSs are being rebalanced, can you give us an idea of when, and will you be looking at some of the EMP WS that trail behind? (Camlann's Torment)

(Not to mention the OaT Lance beats out the freaking Empyrean (--; )

Does it really? Even with aftermath and the difference in base D?

Also, I'm not seeing how Mandau beats Twasthar, at least for a THF anyway - Yes, Rudra's pretty much requires either SA or TA behind it, but otherwise it's quite nasty and again, aftermath dramatically tips the scales towards Empyreans.

Same deal with Annihilator - how the heck does it win over Amrageddon exactly? It only has 1 more base damage, and from what I've read Wildfire is capable of some truly horrific damage, especially with a Brew lol (I've heard reports of 70k+ dmg with brew)

No, the only relics that are "better" are Mjollnir & Mandau (RDM & BRD only) really. Aegis is situationally useful for PLD against mobs that spam a lot of magic, but otherwise Ochain beats it pretty hard with its absurd block rate & dmg reduction. Gjallar loses out as well at 90 due to the 3rd song, especially during soul voice. The gap's only going to widen if & when BRD gets a 3rd march song.

Apocalypse you can kind of make an argument for, I guess, since that 10 haste aftermath is kinda nice but in all honesty the recent gear we've gotten lately makes it a moot point. The gap isn't quite as wide with some of the weapons, but it's still undeniable that Empyreans > Relics, and most of the mythics save for a few of the really nice utility ones (Yagrush, Kenkon etc)

The point is you're not supposed to be using Drakesbane anymore once you have the Rhongomiant. Otherwise it's just like some deranged Ryunohige wannabe'. It's not different than the fact that it's wrong that I'm sure Gungnir users still use Drakesbane too. You know who should be using Drakesbane? Ryunohige owners.

Also, since you seem to think that universally all Empyreans are better, you should know that Ryunohige handily beats out all the alternatives for Dragoon. So please don't act like my post is wrong without knowing the math.

I really would appreciate a CM response.

PS: Not looking for a crit ws nerf (I really hope that isn't happening), just wondering if the devs are aware that some Empyreans lag behind too. And that Relic and Empyrean Lance owners don't use their relic and empyrean WSs (except for aftermath in Rhongomiant's case.)

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

The point is you're not supposed to be using Drakesbane anymore once you have the Rhongomiant. Otherwise it's just like some deranged Ryunohige wannabe'. It's not different than the fact that it's wrong that I'm sure Gungnir users still use Drakesbane too. You know who should be using Drakesbane? Ryunohige owners.

Also, since you seem to think that universally all Empyreans are better, you should know that Ryunohige handily beats out all the alternatives for Dragoon. So please don't act like my post is wrong without knowing the math.

I really would appreciate a CM response.

PS: Not looking for a crit ws nerf (I really hope that isn't happening), just wondering if the devs are aware that some Empyreans lag behind too. And that Relic and Empyrean Lance owners don't use their relic and empyrean WSs (except for aftermath in Rhongomiant's case.)

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this is true if you only use torment, the more drakes you can get in and still keep AM up, the more empy lance pulls ahead.

also drg has absolutely nothing to complain about. Do mythic lance and enjoy the only weapon that can compete with ukon from a math perspective.

Camate I just read your response to the Abyssea VNM Congestion issue

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Sorry for the late response on this topic!

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Would it be possible if we can have the same courtesy on an update on this implementation? When we can expect adjustments to relic and mythic weapons to take place. Thank you thank you.

What's so hard to understand about the point that if you make a lance that has a unique WS to the lance and it took you countless hours to make (don't bother dickwaving, I don't care how fast you made yours if you did) then you shouldn't just keep using the same exact WS you had before you made it? Or for any other emp/relic weapon for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

What's so hard to understand about the point that if you make a lance that has a unique WS to the lance and it took you countless hours to make (don't bother dickwaving, I don't care how fast you made yours if you did) then you shouldn't just keep using the same exact WS you had before you made it? Or for any other emp/relic weapon for that matter.

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Hi I'm a Mandau THF welcome to my world.

Oh wait no, its not my world because Drakesbane is one of the strongest WS in the game inside Abyssea or outside it while Evisceration is merely "ok", and only in Abyssea while outside it's substandard.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Hi I'm a Mandau THF welcome to my world.

Oh wait no, its not my world because Drakesbane is one of the strongest WS in the game inside Abyssea or outside it while Evisceration is merely "ok", and only in Abyssea while outside it's substandard.

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All relic users are feeling the same way.

Well your weapons are getting buffs, my point was to see if the devs were aware this issue even applies to some Emp weapons. I'm not keen on the idea that I unlock some new weaponskill that's not good at puncturing heavy armor despite that being its pitch in the description (10% ignore at 100%), worse than a WS I already have everywhere, and is really only used for aftermath begrudgingly. Is it really that hard to understand I already know Drakes is good? But I'm not making Ryunohige, am I?(yet) And I'm sure Gungnir owners feel the same way towards Geirskogul.

But please, post yet another response saying: BUTT DRAGEWN, DID U NO DAT DRAKESBANE AM GUD?

Camate,

After responding about gobbie bag increase plans and checking with the development team in regards to tractor, can we finally have a response from you and the development team on when we can expect adjustments to relic and mythic weapons implemented?

Thank you kindly for your courtesy and assistance communicating information from the Development Team.

I love that this post as to bebumped, every, single, day.

drg beats sam now and they're still crying. I just don't get it.

If I was part of the community team I probably wouldn't respond promptly to this either. One of the most annoying things people can do is pretend to be polite while whining and begging. They'll respond when they're ready.

It's going to take some work to balance everything to their satisfaction and they may not have a date in mind yet.

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Originally Posted by Azagthoth

If I was part of the community team I probably wouldn't respond promptly to this either. One of the most annoying things people can do is pretend to be polite while whining and begging. They'll respond when they're ready.

It's going to take some work to balance everything to their satisfaction and they may not have a date in mind yet.

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Asking politely is the favorable way. There are already players concerned upset about the lack of communication.

Everyone already knows its going to take time to work on this, however seriously 1 month after the major version update, 3 months since they announced adjustments will be made, and almost 8 months since the issue existed - do they really need this long to come up with a date to implement? Project management is really not this hard. Even so, the approach is to be persistent and ask nicely until there is a courtesy response.

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Originally Posted by Dart

drg beats sam now and they're still crying. I just don't get it.

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Enjoy having no reading comprehension. It's not a matter of crying, it's a matter of people who make any of these relic/mythic/empyrean weapons should be using the WS associated with them, or at least it should be viable to. But hey, continue to sound like a 12 year old if it makes you happy.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Enjoy having no reading comprehension. It's not a matter of crying, it's a matter of people who make any of these relic/mythic/empyrean weapons should be using the WS associated with them, or at least it should be viable to. But hey, continue to sound like a 12 year old if it makes you happy.

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Exactly. Why go through all that effort to obtain one of these only to find out it's just a pretty looking toy?

The politeness is fake; it's a facade, which is why it's so irriating.

SE's communication with players has improved drasticly in recent times. They aren't required to post any information about their plans; therefore, I don't see how demanding the information is going to help your cause.

The problem has existed for only 8 months? In other words, you're just the typical person that is mad, because his weapon isn't on top anymore. Numerous relics have been relatively useless since their creation and you wouldn't have made this thread if Empyreans weren't added to the game.