[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eaglestrike

Longtime player so pardon my cynicism but this sounds like it will be something that'll have very little effect for endgame content since it's built around not having haste? That would be quite sad, since you can cap haste with Trusts these days...

---

If you are using Trust, you aren't soloing. You are using Trust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sephiran

If you are using Trust, you aren't soloing. You are using Trust.

---

I think most people would disagree with you, you could make the argument that trust is "not solo" but by that logic you could say that Beastmasters, Pups and Smns aren't soloing unless they don't have a pet out, by and large when people refer to soloing in this game, they mean, "one player character", and some go further as to call dual boxing and the like soloing because it's controlled by one person, but very few go the other way, and classify trusts or other NPC characters as not solo.

At the end of the day, the meaning of solo in FFXI is up for discussion, but I doubt too many would use it in the way you just did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seillan

Sorry I'm late on this, I've been studying for a test non-stop the last few days.

It's not that I have a problem with playing your character well -- and believe me, I always try to play at the best of my ability -- it just bothers me how bent out of shape some people seem to get if someone doesn't meet their veteran expectations. This is compounded when said veteran makes the less experienced player feel like shit for not doing something just so. That kind of attitude seems far more prevalent now than it did back in the day (at least noticeably) and it just bothers me to no end. That's where the "sweating the small stuff" comes in. I think it's in the best interest for everyone involved that people takes a minute to step back once in awhile and remember that playing a game like this is supposed to be a fun past time and also that not every player is going to meet all the expectations you may have for them. That doesn't mean you should condescend to them and show your ass. Try helping them instead and politely explain how they could improve something. *Ahem* sorry, tangent.

Yes, I suppose I'd feel good helping to contribute to greater grinding efficiency, but like I said, I'm one of those people that would prefer everyone have fun playing a class they like, rather than picking the most optimum setup for squeezing out every little incremental bit of experience per hour or whatever. It's just not that important to me; it's a means to an end. Obviously there are many that disagree with me though, so it's not like my opinion matters much. I just like choices and variety and the ability to take advantage of it without being ostracized for "doing it wrong." That's the problem I have with the efficiency ideal; even when something is good enough to finish content, it's still not good enough for the masses of min/maxers, simply because it doesn't complete content at the same expedited rate as the tried and true, cookie cutter way of doing things.

I will agree that it's a good idea to play your job/class mainly as intended (meaning using the appropriate weapons for your job, not meleeing with a pure caster, etc) but I believe that every job should be given a fair shake, and I'd never hesitate to group with someone simply because they play a class/job that doesn't fit in with the status quo -- efficiency be damned.

In any case, I'm glad to hear that end game isn't quite as dreary as I was envisioning at least, and I appreciate you giving me some insight into it. I've really been enjoying the game so far and I plan on experiencing as much of it as I can.

---

I think you're talking about a different scenario then. My discussion with Dale was about "role playing in endgame content", 5 years of playing this game I've yet to see anyone playing a job in a extremely ineffective playstyle in endgame just for role playing purpose.

There are only 2 types of players that demand most optimal setup:

1) Pick up group leader with little to no confidence with pt performance. If you try to insert a job slightly different from bandwagon setup, they'd complain about wiping and losing 20 merit points in a BC. Those ppl are probably the majority that demands an optimal setup, and their motivation was certainly not because of elitism/arrogance, but because of fear and the lack of confidence....and in some case, the lack of knowledge.(If someone know the game mechanic/pt member inside out, that person won't lack confidence)

2) Real elitists who know(or claim to know) the game inside out, and they'd insist that their setup is mathematically the most efficient one because math/their experience said so.

Those are the minority, probably 1% of playerbase. It's often same person post on the forums and in game you'd rarely even get a chance to play with them.

Maybe my experience is just different from other ppl, idk. In past 6 months I can name less than 3 person in PUG with an attitude issue. Most of the PUG has no issue accepting my none bandwagon jobs even if it's not in /shout, although sometimes I did talk a lot to convince them to let me join.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selindrile

I think most people would disagree with you, you could make the argument that trust is "not solo" but by that logic you could say that Beastmasters, Pups and Smns aren't soloing unless they don't have a pet out, by and large when people refer to soloing in this game, they mean, "one player character", and some go further as to call dual boxing and the like soloing because it's controlled by one person, but very few go the other way, and classify trusts or other NPC characters as not solo.

At the end of the day, the meaning of solo in FFXI is up for discussion, but I doubt too many would use it in the way you just did.

---

Since you can't use trusts in certain BC/instances, solo isn't the same as using a trust IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afania

Since you can't use trusts in certain BC/instances, solo isn't the same as using a trust IMO.

---

You can only charm monsters in certain BCs, you can't bring outside buffs into some but can in others, I'm not sure that factors such as this should really be the deciding factor over whether we consider trust "solo" or not, honestly the biggest argument I can think of against calling it solo would be the fact they show up in the party list. But if that were the deciding factor, Adventuring NPCs would count as Solo, but trust wouldn't, so not sure that's a valid argument either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stompa

A player with a pet out is still soloing.

Calling pets is a Job Ability or a spell.

If we say that a Blm or Monk using job abilities / spells is soloing, then it is ok to say that for pet jobs too.

---

I agree, and calling trusts is a spell! I'm glad we're on the same page here!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Metaking

i don't know nebo if a party has a sam it gets real easy to sata, you know the sam is going to be in the monsters face, might as well make it easier for him to stay there ^.^/ and once its planted on him go around back and trick attack, well worth the dmg between a 3 or 4k evisceration vrs a 9k rudras.

---

Unless the SAM doesn't sit still, or there is more than one, or everyone has already reached the hate cap and the mob is just spinning like a top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afania

Those are the minority, probably 1% of playerbase.

---

I agree that those are the minority of the playerbase but they are the majority of players that shout for PUGs for events. Players that shout to put pick up groups together are a minority unto themselves.

imo this is also a symptom of the poor grouping/recruiting mechanics in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selindrile

You can only charm monsters in certain BCs, you can't bring outside buffs into some but can in others, I'm not sure that factors such as this should really be the deciding factor over whether we consider trust "solo" or not, honestly the biggest argument I can think of against calling it solo would be the fact they show up in the party list. But if that were the deciding factor, Adventuring NPCs would count as Solo, but trust wouldn't, so not sure that's a valid argument either.



I agree, and calling trusts is a spell! I'm glad we're on the same page here!

---

What I meant was, if you try to solo BC/instance, you won't have haste buffs. You can get buffs from outside, but then it's not the same as solo...you need a friend/mule to buff you outside.

The entire argument was about "DPS increase is useless cuz we have haste all the time, even solo", but that's not entirely true if you solo BC/instance. Unless you have a friend/mule to buff you before enter, you can't get haste buffs solo in BC/instances.

I don't really care about the true definition of solo, the point was whether there's a situation that you'd use 1h weapons without haste buff or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

imo this is also a symptom of the poor grouping/recruiting mechanics in the game.

---

There's nothing you can do about grouping/recruiting mechanics if the inherent issue is the job balance though. Even if you make all DD job "DPS role" and make auto pt generator, ppl still gonna instantly drop pt after they see a none SAM DD in pt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afania

I don't really care about the true definition of solo, the point was whether there's a situation that you'd use 1h weapons without haste buff or not.

---

Whereas I only chimed in to talk about the definition of solo and the meaning. I agree there are few situations you'd use 1h weapons without a haste buff, Dyna and Salvage come to mind as Thf, I do these without haste buffs always.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malithar

I read it more as they're doing it because one handed users fall behind when lacking capped haste, which tbh doesn't really make sense either, since everyone does. Not that they're doing it to be only in effect when you're not capped haste. Can't argue with stronger WSs at least, unless they buff Fudo while they're at it for the lawls. ;D

---

Stronger WS = All For It, maybe it will it will allow one-handed weapons to reach the consistency of VS.
Fudo reference = LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malithar

@Oracle: I call it like I see it. Read back over the past 10ish pages of derailed "I feel/think this way, so you're wrong" and tell me ignorance/arrogance aren't the exact definition of what was spewed about.

---

"Call it it like you see it": Well from what I saw you just jumped in to attack and slap the guy, then ran away. I would guess that there were many post made by a handful of posters that in your superior opinion where ignorant/arrogant, but you picked on and insulted the guy that was debating points with 5 others posters and provided nothing other than an insult. Cant see the honor in that approach.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malithar

Same deal with your little rage post about more refresh needing to be made available because your Whm couldn't keep up with anything less than 3 ballads from a Brd (thus Cor, Geo, and/or Rdm were not viable replacements for MP efficiency), despite multiple posters saying otherwise, from personal experience and with facts.

---

That post was about 18 man pug parties, so dismissing comments about what people do in a lowman imho is reasonable. Reading is fundamental (or maybe reviewing what you "see" before "you call it"). Cant tell me that using 1 whm for an 18man run or using 4 jobs to do the job of a single job is the answer for an 18 party with multiple whms is the answer for efficiency. But see, I didn't have a problem with those comments so much, I did have a problem with you proclaiming that you know what I do and what I don't do as if you knew, when you actually didn't know anything about what I do and don't do. I offered you ways to see exactly what I do, since you had such conviction. As a person ( by your own admission) that doesn't lead 18 man parties, rarely partakes in 18 man parties and doesn't hardly ever join pug groups - frankly I don't see how you could bring yourself to comment on the OP anyway - but you did. And now your at it again directly spouting how ignorant/arrogant some one else is - there's "Awwwkward" for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malithar

No disrespect was meant by it, I tried to spin the advice in a way other than "suck less" or "learn2play." I'll keep advice for you on a more basic level next time. Besides, just for reference, who was the crazy searching down FFXIAH and LS community profiles, talking about knowing things bout LSs and such? Awwwkward.

---

Sure there disrespect meant by it, the same way it was meant and purposeful in this regard, you cant directly insult someone and then say "I meant no disrespect". As for advise, I do things you don't, so how can you advise me again? Lastly, I do like to know what I am speaking to before I speak so hate the fact that I asked about ya. You maybe should have done the same thing before you proclaimed that I don't do the things that I do. You keep slapping people with this Ignorance/Arrogant thing, but meh what about the 4 fingers pointing back at you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

Who are these people who do not utilze haste and support spells? I have never met one.

---

I can relate to this developer's post because this is the main reason I usually almost always solo on my RDM instead of my PLD. My Red Mage has Haste 2 and my Paladin doesn't.

So if they were to make some of the weapon skills my Paladin has more powerful - such as boosting the power of sanguine blade etc. - it would encourage me to solo as my Paladin more often instead of always opting for my Red Mage since he has haste 2. So I might be one of the people the developer is referring to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dale

I can relate to this developer's post because this is the main reason I usually almost always solo on my RDM instead of my PLD. My Red Mage has Haste 2 and my Paladin doesn't.

So if they were to make some of the weapon skills my Paladin has more powerful - such as boosting the power of sanguine blade etc. - it would encourage me to solo as my Paladin more often instead of always opting for my Red Mage since he has haste 2. So I might be one of the people the developer is referring to.

---

Nah, you'd probably just sub WAR or RUN to your RDM so they'd have haste 2 AND sanguine blade, fixing nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louispv

Nah, you'd probably just sub WAR or RUN to your RDM so they'd have haste 2 AND sanguine blade, fixing nothing.

---

If I subbed WAR or RUN to my Red Mage though when I solo I wouldn't have access to paralyna, erase etc. Spells like that which help me out a lot when I solo.

So I don't think it would have that effect on me. At least not generally, and would probably just make my PLD/SCH more appealing for solo play instead of me usually opting for my RDM/SCH instead. Because I doubt I would be willing to give up my counter magic just for the sake of a higher damage weapon skill.

Bring Remedy and Panacea then you wont need those /whm spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draylo

Bring Remedy and Panacea then you wont need those /whm spell.

---

I have too many things to spend my gil on as it is. :)

Maybe for certain important fights I wanted to solo would be willing to splurge for something like that. But not for general soloing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selindrile

You can only charm monsters in certain BCs, you can't bring outside buffs into some but can in others, I'm not sure that factors such as this should really be the deciding factor over whether we consider trust "solo" or not, honestly the biggest argument I can think of against calling it solo would be the fact they show up in the party list. But if that were the deciding factor, Adventuring NPCs would count as Solo, but trust wouldn't, so not sure that's a valid argument either.



I agree, and calling trusts is a spell! I'm glad we're on the same page here!

---

Here's my definition: You are soloing when you are controlling a single character and calling forth NPC's only allowable by virtue of your job with NPC's that the game forces you to fight alongside, when applicable. Trust magic is not derived directly from one's job and thus is not soloing in my opinion.

That's just my take on it though. You're free to disagree with me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dale

I can relate to this developer's post because this is the main reason I usually almost always solo on my RDM instead of my PLD. My Red Mage has Haste 2 and my Paladin doesn't.

So if they were to make some of the weapon skills my Paladin has more powerful - such as boosting the power of sanguine blade etc. - it would encourage me to solo as my Paladin more often instead of always opting for my Red Mage since he has haste 2. So I might be one of the people the developer is referring to.

---

Imo, This is all ENTIRELY beside the point. You don't balance the damage dealing capabilities of a job only based around solo content without buffs. This is an MMO. 90% of meaningful endgame content is group oriented. You are almost never not gonig to have a job with haste or support buffs of some kind (even solo with trusts...where you can very easily CAP delay reduction).

To balance WS damage while not taking into consideration such a vast amount of content is mind boggling. To say that 1 handed WS's are fine and they plan make up the difference with autoattack damage (their first response) shows a distinct lack of insight into the game itself. It wasn't until several JP players pointed out that most content takes place with capped delay reduction that they said "Oh sh*t, that's right, haste and buffs are a thing. I guess 1 handers really can't compete at endgame support levels...we'll look into that"

It would not suprise me at all to learn that they think THF is totally fine as a DD becuase they test all this garbage without haste and buffs. Of course then dagger guaranteed crit WS and SATA timers seem competetive. But haste and buffs don't do for THF what they do for other DDs and its things like this they don't seem to consider (assuming it's not just that they want THF to be sh*t tier...it's entirely possible that they do).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

This is all ENTIRELY beside the point. You don't balance the damage dealing capabilities of a job only based around solo content without buffs. This is an MMO. 90% of meaningful endgame content is group oriented. You are almost never not gonig to have a job with haste or support buffs of some kind (even solo with trusts...where you can CAP delay reduction).

To balance WS damage while not taking into consideration such a vast amount of content is mind boggling. To say that 1 handed WS's are fine and they plan make up the difference with autoattack damage (their first response) shows a distinct lack of insight into the game itself. It wasn't until several JP players pointed out that most content takes place with capped delay reduction that they said "Oh sh*t, that's right, haste and buffs are a thing. I guess 1 handers really can't compete at endgame suppoert levels...we'll look into that"

It would not suprise me at all to learn that they THF is totally fine as a DD becuase they test all this garbage without haste and buffs. Of course then Dagger Guaranteed crit WS and SATA timers are competetive. But haste and buffs don't do for THF what they do for other DDs and its things like this they don't seem to consider (assuming it's no just that they want THF to be shit tier...it's entirely possible that they do).

---

I think I understand what you are saying. But I don't see the harm in giving soloist some consideration now and then, even if it is an MMORRPG. So I believe this is just meant more as a nice little change for people like me who would like to solo more effectively on our one-handed jobs that don't have haste. It's not intended to be a grander scheme to try and balance the damage capabilities of one-handed jobs while in a group-context. At least that's not the impression I get when I read the developer's post anyway.

Honestly it is probably meant as a sop to BSTs more than anything, but if that's the case further solidifying us as a job that has no place in groups isn't a solution it's an insult. They need to give us (AT LEAST) native dual wield 1 or 2 so we can sub a real DD sub job to make up for our complete lack of any offensive JA. Or they need to give us a major boost to scythe skill and make scythe suck less and put us on real scythes. We HAVE NO PLACE in group content and that's the problem. I really don't need a boost to soloing. I want to be able to play my favourite job with my friends, and not just when the content is easy enough that we can afford a pity slot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olor

Honestly it is probably meant as a sop to BSTs more than anything, but if that's the case further solidifying us as a job that has no place in groups isn't a solution it's an insult. They need to give us (AT LEAST) native dual wield 1 or 2 so we can sub a real DD sub job to make up for our complete lack of any offensive JA. Or they need to give us a major boost to scythe skill and make scythe suck less and put us on real scythes. We HAVE NO PLACE in group content and that's the problem. I really don't need a boost to soloing. I want to be able to play my favourite job with my friends, and not just when the content is easy enough that we can afford a pity slot.

---

What does sop mean? I'm not familiar with that term.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dale

What does sop mean? I'm not familiar with that term.

---

Quote:

---

sop: noun \ˈsäp\

: something that is done or given to someone in order to prevent trouble, gain support, etc
: a conciliatory or propitiatory bribe, gift, or gesture

Middle English soppe, from Old English sopp; akin to Old English sūpan to swallow.
First Known Use: before 12th century

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sop

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wikipedia

A sop is a piece of bread soaked in a liquid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOP

---

Here you go. Hope that helps. Basically imagine a soggy peice of bread dipped in thin soup. That's what a sop is. It might fill the belly, but it's still an insult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olor

Here you go. Hope that helps. Basically imagine a soggy peice of bread dipped in thin soup. That's what a sop is. It might fill the belly, but it's still an insult.

---

I see. Yeah that clears it up and thanks for the clarification.

But aren't Beastmasters already one of the preeminent solo jobs on this game? I don't play the job, but I was under the impression they were already very good at solo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

Unless the SAM doesn't sit still, or there is more than one, or everyone has already reached the hate cap and the mob is just spinning like a top.

---

You forgot knockback having people standing with their backs to walls, and when people fight on the very edge of combat range. Sure you can tell them to step forward, but a lot of the time it is just too much work for them to step forward for 2 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

It would not suprise me at all to learn that they THF is totally fine as a DD becuase they test all this garbage without haste and buffs. Of course then Dagger Guaranteed crit WS and SATA timers are competetive. But haste and buffs don't do for THF what they do for other DDs and its things like this they don't seem to consider (assuming it's no just that they want THF to be shit tier...it's entirely possible that they do).

---

I bet is has more to do with that stupid census they did. Thief was one of the most played jobs, huzzah thief must have nothing wrong with it! Nope, the reason so many people have thief leveled is for old content they solo for money like salvage and dynamis.

Then there are the people who actually play thief and it's our favorite job. We know what's wrong with it even have ideas how to make it better, but it's like screaming at a brick wall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dale

I see. Yeah that clears it up and thanks for the clarification.

But aren't Beastmasters already one of the preeminent solo jobs on this game? I don't play the job, but I was under the impression they were already very good at solo.

---

Only old content. That's the point, I don't care about being good at solo. Every job is good at solo now. There is literally nothing relevant a bst can solo that other jobs can't do better. But they are also the most likely job going out there with little/no haste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ulth

I bet is has more to do with that stupid census they did. Thief was one of the most played jobs, huzzah thief must have nothing wrong with it! Nope, the reason so many people have thief leveled is for old content they solo for money like salvage and dynamis.

Then there are the people who actually play thief and it's our favorite job. We know what's wrong with it even have ideas how to make it better, but it's like screaming at a brick wall.

---

I don't doubt it. But personally, I wouldn't want to have to be the one to sift through all that vitriol on the Thief forums.

I get the feeling that because THF has a passive trait that is desired for certain battles, they think that should be enough. That a job to be DESIRED for something (if at least part of the time) is sufficient. I disagree. I find that to be poor design. In an MMO like this it should be about skill level, creating more powerful gearsets and improving the actual game play experience. I sincerely hope they do give a second look to all 1 handed DPS jobs without the "we weren't considering things like haste and support buffs" goggles on.

But you are right there are a lot of clunky things that get in the way THF endgame damage. Not the least of which is players that don't stand close enough to the mob for you to be in melee range when behind them. This happens to me at least once every day.

• Players move around constanly
• Mobs change hate targets constantly due to fluctuating enmity spikes
• Unreasonably long recast timers on WS JA's
• Comparatively weak weaponskills (when not using SA/TA)
• Knockback effects
• Then you have all the lead time it takes to make positional things happen or recover from them when they don't.
• Regular Combat Job Ability Delay (SA/AuraSteal/Conspirator/TA/Bully/Feint/AC)

And it just keeps getting worse and worse the more haste & support the party has. In a FFXI with fast battles, capped delay reduction and endgame support buffs....there's no way this doesn't deserve adjustment from the dev team.

They should just allow THF to sneak attack/trick attack if they aren't at the top of the hate list. This positional stuff is nonsense in modern XI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

But you are right there are a lot of clunky things that get in the way THF endgame damage. Not the least of which is players that don't stand close enough to the mob for you to be in melee range when behind them. This happens to me at least once every day.

---

This would happen to me with trust all the time too, engaging at the absolute furthest possible distance from the mob. So annoying.

I also wanted to comment on this aspect of their response:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SE

However, one-handed jobs also possess unique abilities such as Treasure Hunter and Blue Magic as well, so we will consider such things as we plan for adjustments.
When we have worked out the details we will be sure to tell you on the forums, so please wait for a little while.

---

EVERY DAMAGE DEALING JOB HAS UNIQUE ABILITIES

SAM is the master of creating skillchains and TP manipulation.

WAR has tanking abilities, retaliation, enfeebling WS and has mastery over many weapons.

MNK has high survivability, Counter, HP Recovery/Party HP boost, and can switch to non elemental magic damage with formless strikes

DRK has HP/MP drain WS, Dark/ Black Magic

DRG has a pet that changes utility with Sub, enmity manipulation, enfeebling abilities, jumps

RNG has treasure Hunter, decoy shot, low enmity and safe range DPS

TREASURE HUNTER IS NOT A REASON FOR THF TO BE PURPOSEFULLY WEAK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olor

Only old content. That's the point, I don't care about being good at solo. Every job is good at solo now. There is literally nothing relevant a bst can solo that other jobs can't do better. But they are also the most likely job going out there with little/no haste.

---

What SE needs to do is focus on how jobs perform in their respective roles within a group setting and ignore any advantages outside of that completely. Whether a job can solo well or not should have no negative bearing on what it's capable of in a group. I'd feel the same if FFXI had a heavy PVP element. PVP shouldn't affect PVE. Solo shouldn't affect group play. Jobs shouldn't be one trick ponies or one event wonders. They should be able to contribute meaningfully in all aspects of group play. Sorry, devs, if that's too hard for you. Sorry players if you're afraid someone else with a different job will horn in on your turf. That's the way it should be.

Before SE move on and buff other DD jobs, can we get a SAM nerf plz?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afania

Before SE move on and buff other DD jobs, can we get a SAM nerf plz?

---

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

I will dance in the streets the day PUP is actually wanted for anything.
I wholeheartedly agree with Camiie's post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Afania

Before SE move on and buff other DD jobs, can we get a SAM nerf plz?

---

Nerf what exactly? TP gain? Weapon skill power? Attack power? Accuracy? Weapon damage? Hasso?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olor

Only old content. That's the point, I don't care about being good at solo. Every job is good at solo now. There is literally nothing relevant a bst can solo that other jobs can't do better. But they are also the most likely job going out there with little/no haste.

---

But my Paladin really isn't good at general soloing. That's what I'm trying to get across. For example: when I'm running around doing coalition quests, colonization and lair reives, farming etc.... it's just pointless for me to ever use my Paladin for it because haste makes my RDM so much better at it. It may not be the only example out there, but I do think it's a relevant one. I even use my RDM when I go out farming items intended for my Paladin, which is kind ironic.

Haste generally is just very powerful. I know because I have been completely spoiled by haste 2 on my RDM and it's hard for me to live without it now lol. So I think the developers are trying to address a real issue here where jobs that have access to haste do enjoy a significant advantage over those who don't. So I think it's a smart design decision to try and increase the weapon skill power of these jobs. Because as an earlier post eluded to - one handed jobs tend to rely on auto attacks more for their damage and haste affects this in a big way.

I understand some of the points you and others make about this not being an answer to solve other problems and job balance in general. That's probably true. But regardless, I do think this is a real issue that needs some attention and I'm glad to see the developers are addressing it.

Hope that clears up what I'm trying to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camiie

What SE needs to do is focus on how jobs perform in their respective roles within a group setting and ignore any advantages outside of that completely. Whether a job can solo well or not should have no negative bearing on what it's capable of in a group. I'd feel the same if FFXI had a heavy PVP element. PVP shouldn't affect PVE. Solo shouldn't affect group play. Jobs shouldn't be one trick ponies or one event wonders. They should be able to contribute meaningfully in all aspects of group play. Sorry, devs, if that's too hard for you. Sorry players if you're afraid someone else with a different job will horn in on your turf. That's the way it should be.

---

You make an interesting point and I agree with it in spirit - but I feel all jobs already can contribute meaningfully to a group.

Chances are if a job is really good at solo it's going to be pretty powerful and will be able to hold its own in a group as well. It's been my experience the stigma against jobs that are good at solo not being good in groups is more a result of bias/misunderstanding and or a un-willingness of that group to accept anything less than perfect.

I went through this back in the old days when I played a PLD/WHM and was constantly derided as being a solo job that sucked in groups. I can't tell you the amount of insults and mockery I endured. However once I found a group of open-minded friends willing to accommodate my play-style we excelled, beat CoP and succeeded in sky. Something I was told I would never be able to do yet I proved every one of them wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maikeru_Sylph

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

---

I don't think Samurais need a nerf either.

They are capable of extremely high burst damage - no doubt about it. But due precisely to the enmity cap you mention I think that helps keep them in check and from becoming over-powered.

I disagree with helping "keep them in check." In most situations, your SAM doesn't even need to throw up Third Eye/Seigan, /nin shadows, etc; they just bull right through the big targets with multiple Fudos while your stunners keep TP moves from seriously damaging them, meaning that they can go nuts with no fear of retribution besides auto attacks and the occasional missed stun, which in most cases your WHM can deal with quickly. With the DD Zerg/Stun mentality most EG has going for it now, SAM is unrivaled for that burst damage, and has no reason to hold back on it; the enmity cap does nothing for them, except make Overwhelm a little harder to position when mobs start pingponging due to multiple capped hate DDs. Even then they have more than enough damage to not worry about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kensagaku

I disagree with helping "keep them in check." In most situations, your SAM doesn't even need to throw up Third Eye/Seigan, /nin shadows, etc; they just bull right through the big targets with multiple Fudos while your stunners keep TP moves from seriously damaging them, meaning that they can go nuts with no fear of retribution besides auto attacks and the occasional missed stun, which in most cases your WHM can deal with quickly. With the DD Zerg/Stun mentality most EG has going for it now, SAM is unrivaled for that burst damage, and has no reason to hold back on it; the enmity cap does nothing for them, except make Overwhelm a little harder to position when mobs start pingponging due to multiple capped hate DDs. Even then they have more than enough damage to not worry about it.

---

But the situation you describe seems more like an example of a well-organized strategy using high burst damage coupled with well-timed stuns. It doesn't seem like the abuse of a over-powered job to me.

The enmity cap is still a factor because that's why you have to bring stuns in the first place. So the Samurai doesn't die from auto attacks in the aftermath of a nasty TP move. So I don't see any problem with this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maikeru_Sylph

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

---

Yep the job that gets shouted for is RNG, but that is also a symptom of the problem. First the reason people shout for RNG, but not SAM is the quality of SAM matters more than a RNG. For AA fights a poorly geared RNG will make due, but in delve which calls for a SAM, you actually need a geared one that knows what they are doing. That's why people don't shout for SAMs, they use ones they know, that they know are geared. But the problem that is making both of these jobs more powerful is the stats on gear. If you look closely the amount of store tp on gear has been steadily rising. This is a very good thing for jobs that have high delay weapons like SAM and RNG. On the contrast jobs with low delay weapons benefit much more from gear that increases number of hits; these are your one handed jobs. However since the addition of ilvl the stats for extra hits are actually going down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dale

You make an interesting point and I agree with it in spirit - but I feel all jobs already can contribute meaningfully to a group.

Chances are if a job is really good at solo it's going to be pretty powerful and will be able to hold its own in a group as well. It's been my experience the stigma against jobs that are good at solo not being good in groups is more a result of bias/misunderstanding and or a un-willingness of that group to accept anything less than perfect.

---

WAR/DNC with dual axes (in which case he's nerfing himself)

versus

BST/DNC with dual axes and the best DD pet available

Both using Ruinator. Both using essentially the same gear. I guarantee you that the WAR wins every time. Now compare the BST to a WAR going all out with GA and /SAM. The WAR wins by an even greater margin. The BST doesn't have the DPS tools that the WAR has and the pet doesn't make up the difference.