More nerfs for War & Ukkos.

The content doesn't scale because 75 was supposed to be the cap forever. If SE had intended to go beyond that(notice how foresight failure is becoming a theme here) then characters and mobs would have increased in power faster than they did. Instead, there is about the same difference in power between a level 50 and 55 character as there is between a 70 and 75 character.

It doesn't matter how many people actually have the weapon. It isn't a necessity that you own something to be able to tell how it works in practice. I don't own a Ferrari, but I know they eat up road like nothing else.

SE has decided that their opportunity to scale characters to higher power is going to come in the form of instance specific events like Abyssea. As I've already stated Ukko's being broken wasn't a factor there, but depending on what becomes of endgame in XI, it very well may be broken elsewhere and it happens to be the case in VWNM. It's also completely possible that future gear will ascend warrior close to, if not completely back to the current 80% crit rate for Ukko's.

It remains to be seen, but at least give the 99 cap time to settle in before you rush to dismiss a change that doesn't have that much of an impact overall.

The point wasn't that people would need to have one to know what it can do. The point was that the evil self entitled warriors that you are railing against are in fact not warriors at all. On a side note you also don't need to own a ferrari to know that if someone came and popped the tires, it would suck for the guy that owned it. The things you are saying are akin to looking at your neighbors smashed up ferrari and going "Psshhh. Big deal. it's not like he can't afford another one.". It's not gonna make your Toyota any better. In fact, the people who did it may be visiting your ride next.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

TBH I don't have anything against warrior specifically. I do have something against people who feel that their job is entitled to be better that everything else; so much so that they are so blinded by it that they can't recognize that changes to reduce their power are warranted.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

She could have stopped there because she'd admitted that warrior was overpowered and not balanced in relation to other jobs. I'm not going to pretend that other jobs including warrior don't need adjustments. Everyone wants a powerful job, but the fact is that the content doesn't support it.

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1. I do not feel my job is entitled to be better than everything else. In fact I'm much in favour of SE making other melee jobs stronger - like I said, balance UP not down. And before you try twisting that statement: I am NOT saying every other melee jobs should be just as powerful as war and thus breaking the game according to you. But again, balance UP and not down.

2. I did NOT say or in any way admit that warrior is overpowered. I said it's powerful, and unbalanced compared to most other melee jobs. Yet again, balance UP not down.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

I'm not mad, just annoyed.

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Why? Why even bother wasting energy on getting annoyed over something that apparently doesn't have any impact on the jobs you play in this game?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

I find it ironic that warriors are upset for whatever reason and somehow attach other jobs needing buffs to it. Warrior has been viable since day 1. All of a sudden your broken damage is scaled back and everyone comes to the defense of RDM and DRK... wtf?

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Are you saying rdms and drks should be content about their jobs as they are today?


I have to say after seeing several forum members rubbing their hands in glee and going "hahahaaa your favourite job got nerfed" I can't help but feel it's all just a matter of jealousy.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

1. I do not feel my job is entitled to be better than everything else. In fact I'm much in favour of SE making other melee jobs stronger - like I said, balance UP not down. And before you try twisting that statement: I am NOT saying every other melee jobs should be just as powerful as war and thus breaking the game according to you. But again, balance UP and not down.

2. I did NOT say or in any way admit that warrior is overpowered. I said it's powerful, and unbalanced compared to most other melee jobs. Yet again, balance UP not down.

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1) I never twisted your words. The fact is that it doesn't matter because the rest of the jobs are closer to being balanced to current content. Why make all jobs more powerful and have laughable content?

2) Semantics. Your exact words were...

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

I don't find Ukon war at its current state too powerful. Powerful, yes. Unbalanced compared to most other melee jobs, yes.

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Translation:
Warrior is OP.

Ukon warrior is easily ahead of the other melee jobs. The issue is that Ukko's is OP for the content.

Solution:
Reduce the power of Ukko's > Create harder content = Buff jobs for harder content

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

I have to say after seeing several forum members rubbing their hands in glee and going "hahahaaa your favourite job got nerfed" I can't help but feel it's all just a matter of jealousy.

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What reason would anyone have to be jealous of warrior? Perhaps because they're overpowered? Why can't you admit it. You're pleading for SE to increase the power of other jobs so you don't look as OP, yet you refuse to admit it. I couldn't care less if they change it or leave it the same. I just think it's silly for people to overlook it like it isn't broken.

Did VW suddenly become harder from this nerf? No
Did Pup/Thf/Bst suddenly become more viable on harder content? No


Nothing's really changed, just the top two DD do less less damage, Sam isn't as overshadowed by War/Mnk, anyone who benefitted from the crit damage on BR doesn't anymore, Drk got a decent GS WS.

[SIZE=20]BALANCE!!
[/size]
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...3095eaebf1.jpg

Borealis is pumping out 3-5k resolutions. 5k WSs with a weapon you get as a lucky drop is ok but not with a weapon you spent days/months obtaining. Epic balancing.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

[SIZE=20]BALANCE!!
[/size]
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...3095eaebf1.jpg

Borealis is pumping out 3-5k resolutions. 5k WSs with a weapon you get as a lucky drop is ok but not with a weapon you spents days/months obtaining. Epic balancing.

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Quickly... to the bandwagon!

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Quickly... to the bandwagon!

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You joke but this kinda craps all over your "They are balancing jobs against content" theory. Doesn't it? Arbitrary nerf is now officially arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Translation:
Warrior is OP.

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That is how you chose to translate what I said.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Ukon warrior is easily ahead of the other melee jobs.

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Never denied that (assuming the Ukon owner knows wtf they're doing, otherwise they might aswell be swinging a Vermeil Bhuj).

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Originally Posted by Scribble

The issue is that Ukko's is OP for the content.

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Exactly which content are we talking about here?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Why can't you admit it. You're pleading for SE to increase the power of other jobs so you don't look as OP, yet you refuse to admit it.

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You're allowed to believe that if you so chose, however it is not the truth. War isn't my only job, you know (and before anyone calls me a bandwagon war - it was my very first 75 job), I have a lot of other jobs I like to play, and I have good friends whose favourite jobs have been largely ignored and/or given laughable buffs ever since the level cap was raised the first time. Contrary to what you think, I'm not only looking out for myself and my favourite job here. When I say I would love to see other jobs being made better, it's not because it will make my war seem "less OP". Why SE decides to nerf jobs and job abilities and pissing off a lot of players by doing so, instead of making other jobs more powerful and making a lot of players happy instead, is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

You joke but this kinda craps all over your "They are balancing jobs against content" theory. Doesn't it? Arbitrary nerf is now officially arbitrary.

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It isn't a theory. What I posted was the suggested way, not the way SE does it.

Introduce over-tuned content > introduce/buff/nerf player spells and abilities > buff/nerf content

Protip: Resolution is another lolscythe adjustment to keep emo DRKs curled up in a ball.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

That is how you chose to translate what I said.

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If you're speaking about Ukko's then unbalanced means one of two things. Overpowered or underpowered. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not that stupid to think it's the latter.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Exactly which content are we talking about here?

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Endgame.

I don't care what your jobs are, which jobs you enjoy playing and which friends you carry along with you. None of that is relevant to the adjustment.

An Ukko warrior who sincerely cares about other jobs being buffed is just as, in your own words 'unbalanced', as one who doesn't give a shit. Big deal.

You can please some of the people... you can't make them all great DD when they already rip through what should be {Incredibly Tough} content like it's {Easy Prey}. They might enjoy being 'unbalanced', but unless there is some sort of challenge to it they'll just get bored and end up quitting anyway.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

If you're speaking about Ukko's then unbalanced means one of two things. Overpowered or underpowered.

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I'll go with the majority of other weaponskills being underpowered, how about that? Arguing semantics gets us nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Endgame.

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And what do you consider to be endgame in FFXI in 2012?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

don't care what your jobs are, which jobs you enjoy playing and which friends you carry along with you. None of that is relevant to the adjustment.

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It most certainly is relevant. I want my friends to continue playing this game. I don't want them to get fed up and annoyed with SE to the point where they decide to quit. Maybe this nerf alone won't make them quit, but it could very well be the straw that broke the camel's back for some, and it certainly adds to the feeling a lot of us have about SE not giving a damn about their player base.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

An Ukko warrior who sincerely cares about other jobs being buffed is just as, in your own words 'unbalanced', as one who doesn't give a shit. Big deal.

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Not even sure what you are trying to say here.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

You can please some of the people... you can't make them all great DD when they already rip through what should be {Incredibly Tough} content like it's {Easy Prey}. They might enjoy being 'unbalanced', but unless there is some sort of challenge to it they'll just get bored and end up quitting anyway.

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You've been using the word "content" in almost all your posts. I still don't know what content you are referring to, saying "endgame" doesn't really explain anything either. What exactly is this content that should be incredibly tough which DDs rip through like it's easy prey?

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

The nerf won't hurt WAR all that bad. As it was already mentioned, WAR will still be the premier DD. WAR is still going to completely destroy most jobs. The only thing it did was slightly close the gap between SAM and WAR. Nothing is going to change because those jobs that were less desirable are going to stay that way. There will be no positive effect for weaker jobs from this like people lead themselves to believe there will be.

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actually things will change, all those jobs that didn't get invited will get invited less now. instead of 2 ukko wars killing kaggen in 5 mins people will now just take 4 and forego other melees to ensure that 5 min kill.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

actually things will change, all those jobs that didn't get invited will get invited less now. instead of 2 ukko wars killing kaggen in 5 mins people will now just take 4 and forego other melees to ensure that 5 min kill.

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Good point, I stand corrected.

sorry for party hoggin

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Protip: Resolution is another lolscythe adjustment to keep emo DRKs curled up in a ball.

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Do you work for gamepro? Because that's a terrible protip. You can keep making jokes but a SS of a 5k resolution being performed while a nerf to Ukko's looms on the test server just makes you pause for a second and say ".....what?...." Taking the power to do 5k WSs away from an effort based weapon and giving it to a luck based weapon destroys any credibility the "balance card" had left.

The V.smite/Ukko's and Blood Rage nerf needs to be dialed back or completely removed.

[QUOTE=Scribble;256318]TBH I don't have anything against warrior specifically. I do have something against people who feel that their job is entitled to be better that everything else; so much so that they are so blinded by it that they can't recognize that changes to reduce their power are warranted.QUOTE]

Character:Scribble
World:Shiva
Main Job:WHM lv. 90

Sooo im guessing your in favor of rdm and sch getting cure v and vi no ?

Maybe all jobs should get the same TH as thf ? We could also give all jobs the same defense and abilities as pld..

Hell why not give every job the exact same JA/spells/def/attack/ws, make them all take the exact same amount of dmg and do the exact same amount of dmg then ppl couldnt complain about other jobs being OP.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Do you work for gamepro? Because that's a terrible protip. You can keep making jokes but a SS of a 5k resolution being performed while a nerf to Ukko's looms on the test server just makes you pause for a second and say ".....what?...." Taking the power to do 5k WSs away from an effort based weapon and giving it to a luck based weapon destroys any credibility the "balance card" had left.

The V.smite/Ukko's and Blood Rage nerf needs to be dialed back or completely removed.

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People really think Ukko's having a 80% crit rate at 300% wasn't overpowered? That was so out of line compared to every single other weaponskill in the game. Victory smite was nowhere close to that, I can see the argument there more.

As for the Resolution screenshot, that was a screenshot, not a parse, not a true reflection of the event. There are parses all over the place where WAR craps all over every other DD. Some random screenshot doesn't make something overpowered. I am sure SE pulled logs, parses etc to find out how overpowered Ukko's was. In a few threads in the war forum, the g.sword and war one in particular, someone makes the argument DRK "isn't even a DD." Now WARs are afraid of a non crit g.sword weaponskill from a loldrk. Please.

I don't know why people keep bringing up 300% TP having 80% crit rate. Who the hell was even weaponskilling at 300% TP? I always weaponskill as soon as I hit 100% TP. I don't see 80% crit rate being that broken considering that you could've weaponskilled three times instead of once at 300% TP.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

I don't know why people keep bringing up 300% TP having 80% crit rate. Who the hell was even weaponskilling at 300% TP? I always weaponskill as soon as I hit 100% TP. I don't see 80% crit rate being that broken considering that you could've weaponskilled three times instead of once at 300% TP.

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Ok, so what was the crit rate at 100%, 40%? What other ws has a crit rate of 40% at 100 tp?

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Ok, so what was the crit rate at 100%, 40%? What other ws has a crit rate of 40% at 100 tp?

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any thf ws

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

I don't know why people keep bringing up 300% TP having 80% crit rate. Who the hell was even weaponskilling at 300% TP? I always weaponskill as soon as I hit 100% TP. I don't see 80% crit rate being that broken considering that you could've weaponskilled three times instead of once at 300% TP.

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voidwatch temps

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Originally Posted by Brolic

any thf ws

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Any 2 handed weaponskill?

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Any 2 handed weaponskill?

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/thf works too

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Ok, so what was the crit rate at 100%, 40%? What other ws has a crit rate of 40% at 100 tp?

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Why would another ws be the same as ukkos?

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

I don't know why people keep bringing up 300% TP having 80% crit rate. Who the hell was even weaponskilling at 300% TP? I always weaponskill as soon as I hit 100% TP. I don't see 80% crit rate being that broken considering that you could've weaponskilled three times instead of once at 300% TP.

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Up your temp game.

Rag+Resolution WARs don't hold a candle to Ukko WARs, except when 2hr is up and even then its close. I spent the morning parsing VW with Shanian and was destroying him on my DRK, won every parse by 4-8% margin. When he goes with Ukon I win 1 in 5 if that.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

People really think Ukko's having a 80% crit rate at 300% wasn't overpowered? That was so out of line compared to every single other weaponskill in the game. Victory smite was nowhere close to that, I can see the argument there more.

As for the Resolution screenshot, that was a screenshot, not a parse, not a true reflection of the event. There are parses all over the place where WAR craps all over every other DD. Some random screenshot doesn't make something overpowered. I am sure SE pulled logs, parses etc to find out how overpowered Ukko's was. In a few threads in the war forum, the g.sword and war one in particular, someone makes the argument DRK "isn't even a DD." Now WARs are afraid of a non crit g.sword weaponskill from a loldrk. Please.

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How is it possible to miss every single point in a 300 post thread? No it's not a parse but every WS that drk did was 3k-5k. Who cares if it crits or not. Who cares if it's a DRK. If you are saying 5k WSs are unacceptable from a WAR and that's why this nerf is justified then they are also unacceptable from a DRK and the fact that SE is allowing it makes the nerf to Ukko's 100% arbitrary. Most likely based off the opinion of people like you who don't understand that job balance has a lot more to it than how much damage they can do.

Those WSs also came from a weapon he just lucked into. Not a weapon he put days/months of deliberate work into.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

You can keep making jokes but a SS of a 5k resolution being performed while a nerf to Ukko's looms on the test server just makes you pause for a second and say ".....what?...." Taking the power to do 5k WSs away from an effort based weapon and giving it to a luck based weapon destroys any credibility the "balance card" had left.

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If that's all it takes to destroy the balance card then you're suggesting that the rank for WS from best to worst should be Mythic > Relic > Empyrean and your argument for Ukon is shot anyway. Also, considering that it used to be harder to acquire a Relic, should those who completed them pre neo-dyna have access to a more potent WS?

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Originally Posted by Riaurio

Character:Scribble
World:Shiva
Main Job:WHM lv. 90

Sooo im guessing your in favor of rdm and sch getting cure v and vi no ?

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Don't judge a book by it's cover? I personally don't care if they give Cure V to RDM and/or SCH. My jobs are WHM, RDM, SCH and BLM so that would only benefit me. Your suggestion to make all of the jobs static is redundant. It would be easier to just remove all the other jobs instead of making 20+ clones of the same thing. What is your point?

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

I don't know why people keep bringing up 300% TP having 80% crit rate. Who the hell was even weaponskilling at 300% TP? I always weaponskill as soon as I hit 100% TP.

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You're doing it wrong for several reasons. If your group is put together correctly then you should have no problem getting to 300 TP. I'm guessing you also didn't consider the effect it has on Aftermath?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

If that's all it takes to destroy the balance card then you're suggesting that the rank for WS from best to worst should be Mythic > Relic > Empyrean and your argument for Ukon is shot anyway. Also, considering that it used to be harder to acquire a Relic, should those who completed them pre neo-dyna have access to a more potent WS?

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Your tangent argument is ridiculous and you completely missed the point. I don't care if DRKs get a weapon that can do 5k but saying it's not ok for Ukon to do 5k but DRK is fine just throws balance right out the window. The fact that the weapon that facilitates the 5k damage resolutions is a random luck drop is just icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

I personally don't care if they give Cure V to RDM and/or SCH. My jobs are WHM, RDM, SCH and BLM so that would only benefit me.

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You should stop there.

How would you feel if they took away cure V from whm in order to "balance" it towards rdm and sch?

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Originally Posted by Scribble

You're doing it wrong for several reasons. If your group is put together correctly then you should have no problem getting to 300 TP. I'm guessing you also didn't consider the effect it has on Aftermath?

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Who the hell cares about the aftermath lasting for 90 seconds instead of 30 seconds. In those 90 seconds you will have reached 100% tp several times and weaponskilled again several times. Especially if we're talking voidwatch.


For someone who doesn't really care about warrior, or about this nerf, you sure have a hell of a lot to say regarding the matter.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

How is it possible to miss every single point in a 300 post thread? No it's not a parse but every WS that drk did was 3k-5k. Who cares if it crits or not. Who cares if it's a DRK. If you are saying 5k WSs are unacceptable from a WAR and that's why this nerf is justified then they are also unacceptable from a DRK and the fact that SE is allowing it makes the nerf to Ukko's 100% arbitrary. Most likely based off the opinion of people like you who don't understand that job balance has a lot more to it than how much damage they can do.

Those WSs also came from a weapon he just lucked into. Not a weapon he put days/months of deliberate work into.

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My point is I don't believe he was doing 5k ws the whole fight, you can't just say something wihtout proving it. Eyeballing sucks, where is the parse? DRK lacks many offensive job abilities and traits of a WAR, they don't just throw out 5k weaponskills all the time on high tier voidwatch NMs.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

My point is I don't believe he was doing 5k ws the whole fight, you can't just say something wihtout proving it. Eyeballing sucks, where is the parse? DRK lacks many offensive job abilities and traits of a WAR, they don't just throw out 5k weaponskills all the time on high tier voidwatch NMs.

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Neither do wars.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Those WSs also came from a weapon he just lucked into. Not a weapon he put days/months of deliberate work into.

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Tangent to what? You're saying that the strength of a weapon should be based on the work and effort you put in to acquire it. Mythics are the hardest weapons to acquire, yet most Empyreans are better. The same is true for Relic.

I'm not the one to argue exact numbers with so you should keep your argument with Siiri separate from mine.

I'll admit I didn't even consider Dusty Wings in Voidwatch, however; I do use them when I do Voidwatch which happens to be not very often.

The truth is, whether it be Ukko's or some other WS, WAR is still going to be number one, so there's no reason to rejoice. I'm repeating something that I've said already, but WAR is going to remain the strongest while other jobs remain where they've been because this update didn't affect them. Too bad for those rejoicing, the nerf won't have enough of an effect for them to suddenly be the top choice for DD.

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Originally Posted by Tsuneo

The truth is, whether it be Ukko's or some other WS, WAR is still going to be number one, so there's no reason to rejoice.

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It isn't that warrior or any other job that isn't my favorite is number one. It's been warrior for a while now so I'm pretty settled in to the fact that it won't change much. The problem is that the community, generally speaking, will always opt for the easy route.

Most people don't have a problem with their favorite job not being the top DD. Most people do have a problem with a game that stresses group play, but doesn't supplement that with reasons to diversify. It's the 'In order to participate in [Insert event here] you must have [Insert optimal job for group composition here] leveled' that bothers people.

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Originally Posted by Scribble

Tangent to what? You're saying that the strength of a weapon should be based on the work and effort you put in to acquire it. Mythics are the hardest weapons to acquire, yet most Empyreans are better. The same is true for Relic.

I'm not the one to argue exact numbers with so you should keep your argument with Siiri separate from mine.

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You are a moron or purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make. I will try to make it as simple as possible this time....

If it's not ok for WAR to do 5k WSs because of balance. Then why is it ok for DRK to do 5k WSs?

Just remove the whole luck based weapon comment from your brain because it's clearly confusing you. It wasn't the main point of my post but you seem to be latching on to it.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

any thf ws

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Name one. Because I don't know any that does.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

You are a moron or purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make. I will try to make it as simple as possible this time....

If it's not ok for WAR to do 5k WSs because of balance. Then why is it ok for DRK to do 5k WSs?

Just remove the whole luck based weapon comment from your brain because it's clearly confusing you. It wasn't the main point of my post but you seem to be latching on to it.

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How did that DRK do a 5K WS? What kind of buffs did he have on himself and what debuffs were on the mob? If he is getting 5k everytime he hits 100tp solo, there might be a problem. But if this was a combination of Dia3 on the mob, beserk, last resort, souleater and whatever else can be stacked, that is a different story.

And what was the damage on the Ukyo's fury that followed so we have a comparison against the same mob?

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

You are a moron or purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make. I will try to make it as simple as possible this time....

If it's not ok for WAR to do 5k WSs because of balance. Then why is it ok for DRK to do 5k WSs?

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I don't give a fuck. I am not Siiri and I am not trying to make her argument. Nothing in any of my posts says shit about 5k damage.

The difficulty in obtaining gear has not nor will it ever be key to the performance of the gear. Period. If you are trying to make that argument then you should be arguing that Mythics should outdamage Relics should outdamage Empyreans. It doesn't work that way.