We are the better DD mage, solely for the fact that we are the DD mage. The only one that would be arguably close is SMN because in some occasions they choose to melee next to their avatars (rarely anymore now).Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
This job can be set at a level that can contend with a WAR, SAM, DRG with out tipping it over. That isn't a stretch of the imagination. While before I argued that BLU's weakness in HNMs honestly didn't mean much because most gear from HNMs were not very desirable by BLU's, yet now that has changed and my attention is brought back to this issue. The content is changing, and we can't stay in Abyssea forever (or hell this game will just fall apart), and as it stands, unless BLU has some proc'n niche or again something only it can do, it will fall to the way side with out a doubt. Atmas and Cruor Buffs can only go so far.
FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustmentｓ Manifesto [Blue Mage]
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09-22-2011, 07:56 PMScuro
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09-24-2011, 05:19 AMDefiledsickness
well you can count dnc as a blu rival or nin. dnc has better survivability, nin has better tanking, and blu is the better DD. imo of course. thf really is just TH now, rng still is good at... ranged. and cor/sam/drg/blm etc are great damage (with almost no healing). so i mean, pros and cons to everything.
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09-24-2011, 07:15 AMNeisan_Quetz
Did... did you just call blu a better DD than NIN? Am I reading that right?
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09-25-2011, 07:28 AMDaniel_HatcherTwo things..Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuro
1. No BLU "MAGE" should never compete with a DD who's only ability is to DD, improving BLU anymore in melee would do exactly that.
2. LOL SUMMONER!?! are you serious!!!! (PS. Summoner isn't a Mage) -
09-25-2011, 11:57 AMAfaniaIf you're in Heroes zone and DD on a higher lv NM, most likely NIN is a better DD than BLU, since they attack way faster and has higher DPS, and blue magic spell dmg sucked on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz
If you're doing old lv 75 content like Einherjar/Nyzul/Salvage etc, it's hard for a NIN to out DD BLU when blue magic spell rape stuff in those areas, and new Azure lord 2hr update murders Nyzul Floor boss/Salvage chariot etc.
They're pretty much on the same lv IMO, in different situation it may be stronger than another. -
09-25-2011, 12:49 PMAfaniaHow's SATA cannonball "Sheer garbage" in comparision to other DDs in the old days, when it's ranged + can transfer enmity. Other DD is either ranged but generates tones of enmity(such as RNG), or can transfer enmity but not ranged(SAM/THF). There are other options like SMN but I don't think it is that good to a point to make cannonball sheer garbage(Avatar still dies from AoE, and it doesn't transfer enmity to the tank).Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuro
Do I miss any other good DD option to replace cannonball and makes it garbage on strong NMs with AoE?
When we have 20 jobs I guess it's inevitable that some jobs has to be replaceable. But THF is just fine really, ppl always whined about TH, which is THF's specility. And it will always has it's place unless one day TH isn't important anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashan
Also I thought BST is currently the best dynamis currency solo job and DRG is nice to have(Although I'm not sure replacing a DRG with Ukon WAR may yield better result or not) for Angon when you zerg?
I remember when BLU can trigger 2 yellow proc in Abyssea and an efficent job to farm blue chests, ppl complained about how BLU is needed for abyssea because they don't want to spend extra time to find a BLU. I personally don't want BLU to be "useful" in VW because of proc(proc is really a dumb way to make a job useful....plenty of jobs can duo KI NMs in Abyssea just fine, but we all use NIN because of red proc). SE mentioned they want BLU's role to be "Veritable shape shifters on the battlefield who adjust their tactics to fit the constantly changing nature of a conflict", and that should be BLU's speciality, to be able to get things done when certain roles are needed. It doesn't need to be top DD since you have to be REALLY top DD that beats WAR SAM MNK DRK DRG to be useful as a DD job in this game, and you make BLU top DD, inc more DRK Q.Q
Personally I think BLU is just fine as it is. At lv 75 ppl kept saying it has no use for endgame, I had no problem using it on many event and still contribute, such as VNM fight as a stun whore/cannonball DD(a very nice way to deal dmg on T4 black dragon), no problem to use it in Einherjar T3 since stun spam makes it much easier, and light dispel(only this job and BRD can dispel soulflayers) for Nyzul. Although I admit I don't have a lot of job leveled, so I stuck with BLU most of the time. If I have 20 jobs leveled I probably won't use it as much.
If there's any hybrid job that needs to be fixed, it's SCH DNC COR and maybe DRK....I added "maybe" because I found DRK to be the best job to zombie hold NMs outside of abby :cool:
Wildfire can hit 1~2.3k on it at lv 90, you need magic dmg.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5522/wf2d.png
No job can be the best DD in every situation. -
09-25-2011, 04:04 PMTashanIt's one attack every 1 Minute. It's like having a weapon with 3600 Delay.Quote:
How's SATA cannonball "Sheer garbage" in comparision to other DDs in the old days
RNGs will be shooting arrows in between.
SMNs will be allowing their avatar to be melee or resummon spam.
A BLU could supposedly healing or casting support spells in the meantime, but if you're using a strategy where you're fighting for a Ranged Attack distance noones taking damage. Neither are there any Blue Magic spells which can support efficiently.
I'd argue Blue Mage is better than BST, but I'm biased.Quote:
Also I thought BST is currently the best dynamis currency solo job and DRG is nice to have(Although I'm not sure replacing a DRG with Ukon WAR may yield better result or not) for Angon when you zerg?
For Zerg strategies the damage Angon + DRG + Wyvern provides in one slot shouldn't do more than a SAM or a WAR in that same slot. In addition Angon won't stack so where it's important to have, once one person fills that spot none other are required.
I agree. However, I will argue that having some job demand is better than next to none at all. At LV75, the only job demand a Blue Mage would have is Einherjar, and that was a dying event anyway. It didn't mean you were alienated from other content, but you were replaceable.Quote:
I personally don't want BLU to be "useful" in VW because of proc(proc is really a dumb way to make a job useful....
In Abyssea the procing system made having a Blue Mage a requirement, and it definently helped me to make progress.
The other alternative would of been having to level a new job that I don't want to play just to get things for my BLU. Doing that though would mean having to work on making that other job as productive as my BLU is.
I have a challenge for you. And please don't take it as I'm just setting it to prove a point. That's just how I come across sometimes.Quote:
SE mentioned they want BLU's role to be "Veritable shape shifters on the battlefield who adjust their tactics to fit the constantly changing nature of a conflict", and that should be BLU's speciality, to be able to get things done when certain roles are needed.
I would like you to write full Blue Magic Spell Setups to fulfill the below roles:
1. Healing
2. Enfeebling
3. Enhancing
4. A mix of the above
5. Ranged Attacking
You can choose either LV75 Cap, LV90 or LV95. Then we'll debate and evaluate their effectiveness.
Yep, agreed.Quote:
It doesn't need to be top DD since you have to be REALLY top DD that beats WAR SAM MNK DRK DRG to be useful as a DD job in this game, and you make BLU top DD, inc more DRK Q.Q
Totally agree with you. After I quit RDM about 4 years ago, I picked up Blue Mage and have found myself being able to join in almost every activity in this game ever since. I never play any other job but Blue Mage.Quote:
Personally I think BLU is just fine as it is. At lv 75 ppl kept saying it has no use for endgame, I had no problem using it on many event and still contribute, such as VNM fight as a stun whore/cannonball DD(a very nice way to deal dmg on T4 black dragon), no problem to use it in Einherjar T3 since stun spam makes it much easier, and light dispel(only this job and BRD can dispel soulflayers) for Nyzul. Although I admit I don't have a lot of job leveled, so I stuck with BLU most of the time. If I have 20 jobs leveled I probably won't use it as much.
I feel this is partly because I am also usually an organiser for any events I participate in and often I will build a party keeping my role options in mind.
However, it's vary rare I let another person in my events play Blue Mage, ironically. -
09-25-2011, 05:57 PMAfaniaAt lv 75 if you used a PLD tank, their enmity generating ability was no where near as good as a well geared RNG(there were no CDC at that time for PLDs, they had even less enmity generating tool). There's no way RNG can go all out and do dmg without taking the risk of screwing up the pt formation. They need to hold back, and there's still the risk after they WS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashan
SMN is decent though, although I'm not sure in the process of resummon and such will lower too much dmg output or not.
BLU cannonball spam may not be irreplaceable when there's other option like SMN and RNG, but it's still not "sheer garbage" level since it has it's own advantage compare with RNG.
And Abyssea also created a lot of bandwagon BLUs that doesn't enjoy play the job and just lv it for yellow proc, and never bother to get any spells/gears besides proc spells because they just lv BLU as a proc whore. I'm not looking down on ppl who lv the job as a proc whore and gimping it, I can understand where it's come from since I have a lv 75 THF with no gear except TH hands and knife because I need TH sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashan
Plus ppl complained when they can't find a BLU for AF3 pt.
Having a job as a requirement because of proc is making this game less fun than it should be. Ppl who doesn't enjoy playing BLU is forced to play it for proc, while making others that spent the time on the job feel sad to see others gimping it for the sake of efficency. Ppl who just want to get shit done is forced to find specific job for proc, which can be a bit painful sometimes. Of course we all want our main job to be needed for everything, but sometimes it just created more pain.
Seriously, why do I need to lv NIN to solo/duo empy trials(that's my friend's suggestion when I told him I want to make an Almace....he told me to go lv NIN) when it's soloable/duoable on BLU ._.
Proc, stupid proc :(:(:(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashan
Hmmm do you mean what spell to set for specific role? Tbh it really depends on the situation, but I'll try to do the list regardless.
I'll do lv 90 since I haven't play FFXI since 95 update.
1. Plenilune Embrace+magic fruit+winds of promy? Some +MND stat spells are good although it's not really needed IMO, would rather set usual DD/stun/sleep spells to keep some form of versatility when situation changes.
2.Sub-zero smash(para)/Filamented hold(slow)/Actinic Burst(flash)/headbutt(stun)/dream flower or sheep song(sleep)/blank gaze or geist wall(dispel)/Disseverment(Poison)/Aureral drape(blind and silence)/benthnc typhoon(def/mdef down)/Magnetite Cloud(gravity)/Regurgitation(bind)/Demoralizing Roar(attack down)/Infrasonics(eva down)
Depending on the mob may remove some if it doesn't land or not needed on the target.
3. I don't consider BLU to be enhancing job at all with long recast time of Diffusion. I guess AoE refresh in Salvage if healer is a WHM? Or AoE attack buff before zerg? Or diamondhide which isn't that effective and would rather accession SS......
4. Would probably keep magic fruit/P.embrace/winds of promy/Sub-zero smash/Filamented hold/Actinic Burst/benthnc typhoon/disseverment at least, other debuff depends on what benefits the situation the most I guess.
5. That I'm totally not sure, I haven't play BLU to deal ranged dmg only for very long time since I have an empy COR if I need ranged dmg, and most of the time ranged dmg are not really really needed nowadays(even in VWNM I just run in and efflux QC and run away)
I guess Cannonball+ powerful nuke spells like everyone's Grudge or dark orb at lv 95, and rest of the spells being +STR? Although setting both physical ranged spells and nuke spells at once will lower the dmg, but still better than just sit there and wait for recast time.
My question is if ranged dmg is really really needed nowadays though? -
09-25-2011, 07:04 PMScuroYes Summoner's used to DD with their pets with their staves, and in some cases that was fantastic, in others, not so much. Thats why you have to pick your battles. (P.S, the job uses MP, thats mage enough for me, even the abilities cost MP, so quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and flys like a duck, its probably a duck).Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
Alright to be fair, and since I was that shmuck using Cannonball back in the day for NMs, I may have exagerated in saying it was sheer garbage, I will correct myself in saying its a dim light bulb, for the reasons that Tashan has stated. Cannonball in prespective really wasn't fantastic, did it help? Sure but so does a Poison DoT (again not the exact comparison of DoT, but you get the general idea that anything helps but doesn't make it worth while).Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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09-25-2011, 07:29 PMAfaniaTbh I still don't think "replaceable" is that much of a big deal. On the other hand irreplaceable isn't always better. There used to be so many player leveled BRD at lv 75 so they can join merit pt or EG event, and ended up stuck with BRD forever and not allowed to play other jobs, and complained etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashan
You used Einherjar as an example, I'll just use it to explain. Having a BLU for T3 used to be very good because of stun at lv 75, and it will make T3 much easier. But if you can't find a BLU(or if LS BLU doesn't feel like wanting to play BLU that day), that's just fine. Replace the BLU with another DD or healer. You lost stun, but you get more dmg or healing, in the end the difference isn't that big, you lost some advantage, you gain other advantage. It may not be the most optimal result, but it's at least 75%~85% as effective as optimal setup. This applies to all contents that doesn't involve proc besides zerging to use BLU. It's not irreplaceable for most optimal pt setup for most of the situation, but it's at least 75% as effective as specialists and BLU has some advantage other jobs doesn't have. That's already enough to get you into the pt if you don't have other jobs leveled.
But if you added proc, then the difference gets a LOT bigger. If you're not factoring proc, soloing KI NM on NIN is probably only 10~15% more efficient than BLU due to faster killing speed. If you're factoring red proc, soloing KI NM on NIN will be 3x more efficient than BLU in terms of time and money spent on pops. And that's just not acceptable. I can accept spending 10% more time on farming KI on BLU, but not 66% because of lack of WS. And that's what happen when this game rely on proc to make a job "special" and "useful".
I do admit that zerging high lv NM is one aspect that BLU is absolutely shit and no where close to optimal result though. The only advantage it has but other DD doesn't have is just def down spell and AoE attack buff. And it's really hard to contribute in zerging situation. In that case I'd say nerfing heavy strike is really a bad decision. BLU doesn't need to deal as much dmg as 2h DD during zerging, but at least it should be able to contribute decent amount of dmg while having advantages other DDs doesn't have such as def down/aoe attack up spell, to make it replaceable but still able to contribute in it's own way. The point of of heavy strike is not to replace WAR DRK SAM for zerging, but if you want to play BLU or only have BLU, you can still contribute and able to get something done that WAR DRK SAM can't. Just like previous arguement about DRG v.s WAR, DRG is just fine for def down, but you don't need it and you can replace it with another Ukon WAR with more dmg. But if someone only has DRG or just want to play DRG, he can still contribute in a way WAR can't.
Lack of red/blue proc is also a difference you can't make up no matter what, and I really don't want another event that only certain jobs are allowed to play because they make a huge difference in terms of efficiency. Making a job useful because of proc really just make the game no fun at all tbh.
If you're looking for a game changing spell/ability for this job, I'd say at least 80% of the job on the job list offers nothing game changing and fantastic, those job that has fantasitic ability often being forced to play it and don't have other choice, while some others lv it just for efficiency. It is not just this job, it's a problem many other job has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuro
When RDM was useful for everything, RDMs Q.Q about being forced to play as RDM healer and not allowed to play anything else. Now RDMs Q.Q about not having Cure V, which is just ironic. Trust me, if SE give BLU something omgwtf fantasitic irreplaceable and game changing, inc more Q.Q. -
09-25-2011, 08:50 PMTashanIn regards to PLD's emnity you address that with TA Emnity management, but yeah RNGs did have to watch themselves a little.Quote:
At lv 75 if you used a PLD tank, their enmity generating ability was no where near as good as a well geared RNG(there were no CDC at that time for PLDs, they had even less enmity generating tool). There's no way RNG can go all out and do dmg without taking the risk of screwing up the pt formation. They need to hold back, and there's still the risk after they WS.
SMN is decent though, although I'm not sure in the process of resummon and such will lower too much dmg output or not.
As for SMNs, in all honesty I know nothing about how SMN works. All I know is I have seen many a HNM been Garuda Predator Claws spammed to death.
Anything popular will have a bandwagon following it. I was on the LV75 RDM bandwagon, people rode the LV75 SAM train and right now NIN is a bus in rush hour.Quote:
And Abyssea also created a lot of bandwagon BLUs that doesn't enjoy play the job and just lv it for yellow proc, and never bother to get any spells/gears besides proc spells because they just lv BLU as a proc whore.
There will always be some level of required job in this game, whether it's imposed by us or SE. At LV75 any strategy which involved a BLM could not be done by anything else. If you want to merit effectively, you'd need either a BRD or COR setup, a TP melee and a Healer, preferably RDM or WHM/SCH.Quote:
Having a job as a requirement because of proc is making this game less fun than it should be. Ppl who doesn't enjoy playing BLU is forced to play it for proc, while making others that spent the time on the job feel sad to see others gimping it for the sake of efficency. Ppl who just want to get shit done is forced to find specific job for proc, which can be a bit painful sometimes. Of course we all want our main job to be needed for everything, but sometimes it just created more pain.
The procing system at the very least expanded upon our chosen requirements by creating roles in addition to Tanking, Damage Dealing, Support and Healing.
Don't do it. I've done up to my LV85 weapon so far by having other people play NIN. It's tricky and subjob dependant, but a BLU can proc the following Red Weakness:Quote:
Seriously, why do I need to lv NIN to solo/duo empy trials(that's my friend's suggestion when I told him I want to make an Almace....he told me to go lv NIN) when it's soloable/duoable on BLU ._.
Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade, Seraph Strike, Sunburst, Earth Crusher, Cyclone, Raiden Thrust.
It's not enough to replace the 2 Slot NIN + WAR combo, but it gets a lot done. -
09-25-2011, 09:00 PMTashanWhere noteworthy, can you evaluate your view on a Blue Mage fulfilling on those roles with the tools you've suggested at hand?Quote:
1. Plenilune Embrace+magic fruit+winds of promy? Some +MND stat spells are good although it's not really needed IMO, would rather set usual DD/stun/sleep spells to keep some form of versatility when situation changes.
2.Sub-zero smash(para)/Filamented hold(slow)/Actinic Burst(flash)/headbutt(stun)/dream flower or sheep song(sleep)/blank gaze or geist wall(dispel)/Disseverment(Poison)/Aureral drape(blind and silence)/benthnc typhoon(def/mdef down)/Magnetite Cloud(gravity)/Regurgitation(bind)/Demoralizing Roar(attack down)/Infrasonics(eva down)
Depending on the mob may remove some if it doesn't land or not needed on the target.
3. I don't consider BLU to be enhancing job at all with long recast time of Diffusion. I guess AoE refresh in Salvage if healer is a WHM? Or AoE attack buff before zerg? Or diamondhide which isn't that effective and would rather accession SS......
4. Would probably keep magic fruit/P.embrace/winds of promy/Sub-zero smash/Filamented hold/Actinic Burst/benthnc typhoon/disseverment at least, other debuff depends on what benefits the situation the most I guess.
5. That I'm totally not sure, I haven't play BLU to deal ranged dmg only for very long time since I have an empy COR if I need ranged dmg, and most of the time ranged dmg are not really really needed nowadays(even in VWNM I just run in and efflux QC and run away)
1. Healing - MP Efficient Cure 4.5 and Cure 5.5 Spells, coupled with an AoE Erase. In my opinion this put's BLU in the same bracket as DNC-Like support healing, and not enough for a BLU to fulfill that role effectively.
It get's better with a WHM support job, and -na spells. With /WHM this setup can easily allow a Blue Mage to effectively main heal most parties. For an alliance, more healers will be required for the other parties.
2. Enfeebling - A solid set of options. The issue here is whether the enfeebles will be required or outranked by NIN and RDM.
4. Hybrid - True it is quite situational.
5. Ranged - Sorry when I said Ranged Attack, I also meant to include nuking. Basically fighting from a distance.
In situations where you want noone in range of a HNM, yes.Quote:
My question is if ranged dmg is really really needed nowadays though?
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09-25-2011, 09:07 PMTashanTrue.Quote:
Tbh I still don't think "replaceable" is that much of a big deal. On the other hand irreplaceable isn't always better. There used to be so many player leveled BRD at lv 75 so they can join merit pt or EG event, and ended up stuck with BRD forever and not allowed to play other jobs, and complained etc.
Fair enough.Quote:
You used Einherjar as an example, I'll just use it to explain. Having a BLU for T3 used to be very good because of stun at lv 75, and it will make T3 much easier. But if you can't find a BLU(or if LS BLU doesn't feel like wanting to play BLU that day), that's just fine. Replace the BLU with another DD or healer. You lost stun, but you get more dmg or healing, in the end the difference isn't that big, you lost some advantage, you gain other advantage. It may not be the most optimal result, but it's at least 75%~85% as effective as optimal setup. This applies to all contents that doesn't involve proc besides zerging to use BLU. It's not irreplaceable for most optimal pt setup for most of the situation, but it's at least 75% as effective as specialists and BLU has some advantage other jobs doesn't have. That's already enough to get you into the pt if you don't have other jobs leveled.
You're talking about soloing though. A solo NIN is still not more effective than a party.Quote:
But if you added proc, then the difference gets a LOT bigger. If you're not factoring proc, soloing KI NM on NIN is probably only 10~15% more efficient than BLU due to faster killing speed. If you're factoring red proc, soloing KI NM on NIN will be 3x more efficient than BLU in terms of time and money spent on pops. And that's just not acceptable. I can accept spending 10% more time on farming KI on BLU, but not 66% because of lack of WS. And that's what happen when this game rely on proc to make a job "special" and "useful".
Agreed.Quote:
I do admit that zerging high lv NM is one aspect that BLU is absolutely shit and no where close to optimal result though. The only advantage it has but other DD doesn't have is just def down spell and AoE attack buff. And it's really hard to contribute in zerging situation. In that case I'd say nerfing heavy strike is really a bad decision. BLU doesn't need to deal as much dmg as 2h DD during zerging, but at least it should be able to contribute decent amount of dmg while having advantages other DDs doesn't have such as def down/aoe attack up spell, to make it replaceable but still able to contribute in it's own way. The point of of heavy strike is not to replace WAR DRK SAM for zerging, but if you want to play BLU or only have BLU, you can still contribute and able to get something done that WAR DRK SAM can't. Just like previous arguement about DRG v.s WAR, DRG is just fine for def down, but you don't need it and you can replace it with another Ukon WAR with more dmg. But if someone only has DRG or just want to play DRG, he can still contribute in a way WAR can't.
True.Quote:
Lack of red/blue proc is also a difference you can't make up no matter what, and I really don't want another event that only certain jobs are allowed to play because they make a huge difference in terms of efficiency. Making a job useful because of proc really just make the game no fun at all tbh.
lolrdm.Quote:
When RDM was useful for everything, RDMs Q.Q about being forced to play as RDM healer and not allowed to play anything else. Now RDMs Q.Q about not having Cure V, which is just ironic. Trust me, if SE give BLU something omgwtf fantasitic irreplaceable and game changing, inc more Q.Q.
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09-26-2011, 05:17 AMAfaniaHealer:IMO it can't replace WHM for anything serious. BLU cure spell generates too much enmity, I probably won't replace a WHM with a BLU for heroes T2 NM at lv 90 to cure spam MNK tank in duoing situations because of enmity. I also won't replace a WHM with a BLU for voidwatch. But BLU as healer works decently for easier content when you need some heal, and some dmg may help it get done faster. For example I sometimes trio Salvage (at lv 90)and I play BLU/WHM as a healer because I don't have RDM or WHM, and need other ppl on THF and DD. I can still keep ppl alive no problem, but when situation need fast dmg to zerg an NM down(such as BLM rat in AR), I can spell spam and zerg with everyone else, that's something WHM RDM can't do, BLU can also AoE sleep without relying on SJ, and it can be useful. Also I sometimes duo some easy Abyssea NM such as Audumbla with another BLU friend of mine, with COR/SAM+BLU/WHM setup. I zerg the NM down with Wildfire spam while he keeping me alive on BLU. He can deal dmg and B.typhoon for magic def down (it makes very noticeable difference on Wildfire dmg) on that NM and still able to keep me alive no problem. In the end I'd rather use BLU as a healer rather than WHM or RDM for this NM, since a BLU is enough to keep me alive, and it has ability to do magic def down debuff and do dmg on the same time for faster kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashan
Enfeebling:
I rarely invite a debuffer in pt just for debuff. Since many jobs that cover other pt position can do it.
WHM NIN BLM DRK is not created to be debuff expert, but they also has debuff spells that can be useful in pt. While RDM isn't useful just because of debuff, refreshII and cure IV counts too, it is that other aspect of the job that add up together.
Personally I'd use RDM for most of the debuff, slow/para/bind/gravity/bio etc. But BLU still has some unique debuff no? Attack eva magic def down etc. I agree that most of the time you probably won't invite a BLU just for those unique debuff and not really needed, it's probably other advantage BLU has and combine with unique debuff to contribute to the pt.
Hybrid: See above. The above example is more like hybrid than one single role.
Ranged: Nuke dmg is no where near as good as BLM. Cannonball has it's unique advantage of enmity, but probably not as important nowadays since PLD has more hate tool now. Personally I wouldn't invite a BLU if I want ranged dmg, unless I can't get anyone else. However nowadays there are rarely, really rarely any NM that you can't get in the range at all. For most of the NM with AoE run in efflux QC do dmg back off is just fine. BLU can take hit with higher surviveability than other DD if you're well prepared, and it can self cure when taking hit and got out of AoE. Unless the NM has something as bad as AoE instant death or AoE charm, get into AoE isn't that bad.
Of course I admit I probably won't invite a BLU over SMN BLM RNG COR SCH for such situation no matter what, unless I got no one else. But BLU still has higher ranged dmg ability than MNK WAR etc.
Still, BLU has above average in terms of usefulness for every single situation besides zerging higher lv NM(Only zerging high lv NM is way below average). While specialists may be perfect for one situation, but below average usefulness for another. The reason why many ppl think BLU useless is because players got way too many jobs nowaday when you lv them so fast, gear them so fast. Otherwise BLU is just fine in terms of usefulness. If you want to look at other Q.Q jobs, look at DNC SCH DRK and RDM, they are in worse position than BLU(Although I'd still use RDM outside of Abby for refreshII). Personally I also Q.Q a lot about COR being useless for everything besides regain whore in Voidwatch as well. But BLU I'm happy with it, as long as I can get shit done with this job when I need to.
If there's anything that need improvement, it really just need a little boost for zerging high lv NMs. Then it'd be perfect. -
09-26-2011, 06:11 AMProthscarSorry to interject, but weren't you just talking about problems with enmity for BLU vs. WHM healing? We have the exact opposite issue with ranged damage. Sure you can only SATACA a cannonball every minute, but you can also use Regurgitation for an essentially free 500-600 damage which supplies 1CE 640VE no matter how much damage you do. You'll essentially never have to meter yourself in terms of MP or enmity, a large advantage over any of the other jobs above. Will you do as much damage in a short burst? No. But over time you could be comparable while still sustaining other types of damage or other roles if necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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09-27-2011, 04:59 AMTashanYou've pretty much answered it but my final question is, "Do you feel that with the tools a BLU has to satisfy different roles it is well-developed as a hybrid?"Quote:
Still, BLU has above average in terms of usefulness for every single situation besides zerging higher lv NM(Only zerging high lv NM is way below average). While specialists may be perfect for one situation, but below average usefulness for another. The reason why many ppl think BLU useless is because players got way too many jobs nowaday when you lv them so fast, gear them so fast. Otherwise BLU is just fine in terms of usefulness. If you want to look at other Q.Q jobs, look at DNC SCH DRK and RDM, they are in worse position than BLU(Although I'd still use RDM outside of Abby for refreshII). Personally I also Q.Q a lot about COR being useless for everything besides regain whore in Voidwatch as well. But BLU I'm happy with it, as long as I can get shit done with this job when I need to.
If there's anything that need improvement, it really just need a little boost for zerging high lv NMs. Then it'd be perfect.
In her defense she's not really suggesting that emnity control is the reason for choosing a job, but just that's a disadvantage it has in comparison to WHM.Quote:
Sorry to interject, but weren't you just talking about problems with enmity for BLU vs. WHM healing? We have the exact opposite issue with ranged damage. Sure you can only SATACA a cannonball every minute, but you can also use Regurgitation for an essentially free 500-600 damage which supplies 1CE 640VE no matter how much damage you do. You'll essentially never have to meter yourself in terms of MP or enmity, a large advantage over any of the other jobs above. Will you do as much damage in a short burst? No. But over time you could be comparable while still sustaining other types of damage or other roles if necessary.
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09-27-2011, 10:30 AMDarkvalkyr
I dunno. With my tanks I can just throw magic fruit like no tomorrow without getting hate. Maybe I just wear enough enmity- gear? *shrug*
On top of that, if I do ever get hate BLU has enough survivability to last longer than most mages anyway. -
09-27-2011, 04:31 PMTashan
DV you are so win for giving props to Camate like that.
Nice one. -
09-29-2011, 12:36 PMAfaniaI think the crowd control tool worked pretty well, unique debuff is ok too(but not needed most of the time). Everything else I'd say no XD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashan
Especially the fact that BLU cure can't cure alliance members killed it's use as a real healer. -
09-29-2011, 03:54 PMDarkvalkyr
I got quoted by Camate. #Achievementunlocked.
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10-14-2011, 10:28 PMDaniel_Hatcher
I love Google Translate.
What the hell is: Rick cable network pie. :)Quote:
Blue Magic will be introduced for
I love the planting, hello. I look now and then that, hey are many strong tricks Yappari. Currently, we do not consider the introduction of special techniques for knowledge of the following notorious comments was raised from.
Absolute Terror
Gates of Hades
Rick cable network pie
Breeze Spring / Summer Breeze / Breeze Autumn / Winter Breeze is a family of Pixie was considered too strong for even one skill, I think ... and difficult to achieve. Related to the quest-like missions and also battlefield, where there is no learning on their right to challenge, because if you do not have a clear plan, "halo sword," I'm sorry to say that such is the feeling completely. This area and I hope you understand.
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10-15-2011, 04:34 AMBayohne
Hey blues! Got some tidbits for you about upcoming spells that we're currently looking into adding while under the effects of Unbridled Learning:
- Absolute Terror
- Gates of Hades
- Pyric Bulwark
We don't have any plans to allow spell Learning in areas that are related to missions and quests that players cannot repeat, so I’m sorry to say that Light Blade will not be added. -
10-15-2011, 05:43 AMDarkvalkyr
YESSSSS.
Absolute Terror sounds like...it won't get much use.
Gates of Hades is BRILLIANT. I get to use it for the win, now.
Pyric Bulwark is VERY surprising. I'm sure it gets nerfed for -DT% effect instead of downright immunity. -
10-15-2011, 05:57 AMDaniel_HatcherMore like a Stoneskin effect knowing SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkvalkyr
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10-15-2011, 05:57 AMSeptimusPlease don't make us kill pixies, Pixies cure people and are nice. Won't somebody please think of the Pixies?! (Yeah, I know there are mean pixies like in VWNM and Abyssea, but you know that lazy people would kill all of the helpful pixies because they would be easy to kill.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
And we could always have the option to redo mission fights so that we could learn things like Light Blade. Or just for the fun of it. ;) -
10-15-2011, 07:22 AMEconomizerEasy to implement repeatable missions. Memory Orb. Could either be sold from a Goblin who actually explains it (like the cutscene Goblin if you trade Beastmen Seals instead of other items), or Shami.Quote:
Originally Posted by Septimus
The Memory Orb has to be brought to the relevant location. When it opens, it doesn't call forth a monster, but instead your memories of a fight.
This would fit the lore and be easy enough to implement. -
10-15-2011, 07:37 AMxbobx
fyi incase you haven't realize they will be all on that 5 minute timer guaranteed.
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10-15-2011, 08:59 AMProthscar
Absolute Terror seems kinda silly. Spike Flail to give us a physical damage spell for Unbridled Learning or Dragon Breath to give us a much needed new breath spell would have been much more appropriate in my opinion. I can't imagine Absolute Terror will land on anything.
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10-15-2011, 09:19 AMEconomizerActually, on a five minute timer, I'd imagine it would land on things (whereas it wouldn't otherwise).Quote:
Originally Posted by Prothscar
I just wouldn't expect it to last very long. Basically, it will probably be a glorified Stun. -
10-15-2011, 09:26 AMDaniel_HatcherYes, they're under Unbridled Learning we know that already.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbobx
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10-15-2011, 09:29 AMProthscarBet it'll have a stupid long casting time to make up for it if it does happen to land on anything. The 5 minute timer doesn't mean a whole lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Economizer
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10-15-2011, 11:53 AMErics
I am very interested in these spells. Spike flail or dragon breath would've been cool. Oh well. I am still excited for this.
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10-15-2011, 01:14 PMArcon
I can see Gates of Hades becoming the new Charged Whisker.
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10-15-2011, 02:05 PMMightyg
Still wanting a nice strong physical attack. honestly would rather not be spike flail because animation is not that great, but I do want something for high physical damage.
On a side note regarding Pyric Bulwark, This is a very powerful ability full of win and overpowerednessess. I suggest it be balanced by giving it a 5 second cast time and a 5 second duration. ;) -
10-15-2011, 03:32 PMProthscarSo you want them to make it useless. Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyg
I would much prefer a Scherzo/Earthern Armor effect with a decently high duration that stacks with those two effects. -
10-15-2011, 08:29 PMAtoreisThunderbolt is new Charged :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
Damage is a little lower but stun that comes with it let you cast it w/o recasting and debuffs/buffs after dream flower and just finish with whirl of rage. It's just faster. Can also just do thunderbolt > charged ^^ -
10-15-2011, 11:07 PMxbobxnever did a charge whisker burn before, but would that work on a 5 minute timer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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10-16-2011, 02:46 AMQuetzacoatl
Gates of Hades, Absolute Terror and Pyric Bulwark?!
...I...I need to go do my laundry after I finish this post. This is awesome, yet I'm not surprised we didn't get Spike Flail. I wonder what we would be getting from Khimaira.
Not really, the recast on Unbridled Knowledge is too long for the usual Charged Whisker burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbobx
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10-16-2011, 03:19 AMTashan
I think I'm the only one not excited at all.
Edit: I liked Rick Cable Network Pie better. -
10-16-2011, 06:21 AMArconIt could, technically. Usually I guess it's about 3~4min. Would be a more relaxed burn I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbobx
However, I just meant a quick and easy way to get rid of a whole lot of mobs, not just to "burn" for chests or anything like that. Seeing how even Charged Whisker was able to one-shot certain groups of mobs with the right buffs/gear, and I think (or hope) that an ability learned from a creature such as Cerberus named after the god of the underworld himself does more damage than some kitties charging their whiskers. Even just saying it makes me sound stupid.