[Dev 1009] Force Pop HNM's FTW

SE @ MNK:

hey, i herd u couldn't get ur black belt...LOL!


Seriously, this is way worse. KS99 for the pop makes it a small step backwards. This makes the mechanics much more practical for the times, but they applied it in such a ridiculous way. They should have just left the drop rates alone, because requiring us to jump through two hoops for a chance at getting a chance to get the item is just silly. Especially when we're playing with KS99...

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How many people have bragged about KS? "gaiz, i have like 700 KS hurp derp"

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Now we can ask them. "Have you got your Black Belt yet?"

Seriously though I think this change is just fine. Maintains Black Belt as a difficult to obtain item while removing many of the bad parts of camping the kings. Gives people a reason to burn through those KSNM's too. I don't think the drop rate is going to be as bad as people might be thinking, particularly with pop items being 100% drop from both the KSNM and the NQ. We also have to consider that demand for kings might actually be quite high if the upcoming synergy system for older armor offers decent upgrades.

I did call the whining about the changes a while ago though.... pretty spot on if I do say so myself.

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The bad news for a lot of people will probably be that they might have to still put in some hard work to fight them (kings).

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I'm still in absolute awe of the fact that Pchan is seemingly incapable of grasping the concept of doing people a favor with no strings attached. Jesus. I don't need another Pixie Earring. If a friend of mine needed a BB I'd gladly toss some seals their way.

Not that this really applies to me since I have my BB, but I have seen many say that KS's are so easy to get. I would love to have your luck with them then please lol. I am lucky to get 9 if I spend hours killing stuff. While I understand that this update makes some happy I can also see why some are not to pleased. I agree that POP NM is a good idea. Farming KS's is a pain though(that's based off of my luck with them lol). This update will take more time then just camping the HNM's.

Now if they would keep the HQ at 100% drop rate, given that people will have a harder time getting to the HQ, it will make it all worth it :).

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Nothing has really changed except now you can use those thousands of KS that have piled up over the years towards KS99 where most MNKs have been getting their BB items, get an NQ king pop which could lead to an HQ pop where you end up getting the BB item. Under the old system if you didn't get the BB item @KS99 you were done.

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What ? If we go by 50% droparate on the BB item from the HQ KIng, and 50% droprate for the HQ king pop item, you are looking at 400 seals per item or 1200 seals total, and you are not guarranted ANYTHING. This is the most optimistic droprate that you can think of otherwise they would not bother putting a droprate at all. I don't think many peope have 1200 seals to burn in the first place, and secondly it won"t be 50% and 50%.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm still in absolute awe of the fact that Pchan is seemingly incapable of grasping the concept of doing people a favor with no strings attached. Jesus. I don't need another Pixie Earring. If a friend of mine needed a BB I'd gladly toss some seals their way.

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No you won't, like every other greedy player (check your sig) you will burn your seal and try to get a Defending ring. Question : did you give your empyrean WEAPON pops to a friend to farm him his empyreal weapon? Or did you use them first then helped him get his ? Yup you will do the same, and everyone else will do the same, with KS99. They'll try for them first. And since D ring will never drop, well you know the sequel. I think you are just a little naive about friendship on the internet. Fafnir and adamantoise will not be farm by anyone by monk, and behemtoh will be spammed like hell, is all that will happen.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

What ? If we go by 50% droparate on the BB item from the HQ KIng, and 50% droprate for the HQ king pop item, you are looking at 400 seals per item or 1200 seals total, and you are not guarranted ANYTHING. This is the most optimistic droprate that you can think of otherwise they would not bother putting a droprate at all. I don't think many peope have 1200 seals to burn in the first place, and secondly it won"t be 50% and 50%.

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Which is still an improvement over the old system where if you didn't get the drop from the KS99 NM, you lost all your seals.

New system gives people who don't care for BB incentive to use KS for other crappy drops which benefits MNK indirectly.

Again, if you don't like the changes get +2MNK gear, Twilight Belt and ignore Black Belt.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

No you won't, like every other greedy player (check your sig) you will burn your seal and try to get a Defending ring.

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The fuck is "greedy" about my sig? I can tell you right now I don't really give a shit about a Dring. Everyone knows KB only drops Pixie Earrings. I'd rather spend what seals I have getting some Nlegs for my Almace buddy's CDC set than on a Dex+3 earring.

Since you ninja edited:

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

No you won't, like every other greedy player (check your sig) you will burn your seal and try to get a Defending ring. Question : did you give your empyrean WEAPONS pops to a friend to farm him his epryeal weapon? or did you use them first then help him ? Yup you will do the same, and everyone else will do the same, with KS99. They'll try for them first. And since D ring will never drop, well you know the sequel. I think you are just a little naive about friendship on the internet.

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Actually, I farmed my Verethragna and my friend's Almace simultaneously. We both finished 24 hours apart, mainly because we had to sleep/work/etc. Afterwards we finished our third friend's Almace for BLU despite getting nothing from him out of it. I've also given up Carabosse pops that I was using for my Armageddon in order to help another friend out with his Masamune.

I think you're just a jaded, cynical Frenchman with no friends. So, I guess we're even.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The fuck is "greedy" about my sig?

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sigworthy

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I can tell you right now I don't really give a shit about a Dring. Everyone knows KB only drops Pixie Earrings. I'd rather spend what seals I have getting some Nlegs for my Almace buddy's CDC set than on a Dex+3 earring.

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Stop with your retarded pixie earring, bro, it was never good. And PLEASE, don't put put N legs on the level as D ring. Level increase is VERY likely to bring better legs items, it is very unlikely to bring anything better than black belt or defending ring.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

What ? If we go by 50% droparate on the BB item from the HQ KIng, and 50% droprate for the HQ king pop item, you are looking at 400 seals per item or 1200 seals total, and you are not guarranted ANYTHING. This is the most optimistic droprate that you can think of otherwise they would not bother putting a droprate at all. I don't think many peope have 1200 seals to burn in the first place, and secondly it won"t be 50% and 50%.

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You completely missed a huge factor in your 'calculations.'

Most people have these things called 'friends,' and their 'friends' will also want to do KS99s, NQ Kings, and HQ Kings for drops other than the BB items. Some MNKs have 'friends' who will use 100s of KS to help them get the BB item, on say, the Turtle path. There exist plenty of people in FFXI who aren't total dickwads, and these people will either sell or give away unwanted BB items at the Kings camps.

All these factors combined drastically improves the chances for MNKs to get needed BB items.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

Which is still an improvement over the old system where if you didn't get the drop from the KS99 NM, you lost all your seals.

New system gives people who don't care for BB incentive to use KS for other crappy drops which benefits MNK indirectly.

Again, if you don't like the changes get +2MNK gear, Twilight Belt and ignore Black Belt.

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At least in the old system you could buy it by offering enough gil, assuming people actually camped this shit which I doubt.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

Now we can ask them. "Have you got your Black Belt yet?"

Seriously though I think this change is just fine. Maintains Black Belt as a difficult to obtain item while removing many of the bad parts of camping the kings. Gives people a reason to burn through those KSNM's too. I don't think the drop rate is going to be as bad as people might be thinking, particularly with pop items being 100% drop from both the KSNM and the NQ. We also have to consider that demand for kings might actually be quite high if the upcoming synergy system for older armor offers decent upgrades.

I did call the whining about the changes a while ago though.... pretty spot on if I do say so myself.

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What ? lol

Only the KSNM Pop item is 100%, the NQ one isnt.

So the path is:
Run around fighting mobs to get 99 KS's
Fight KSNM (Requiring friends i guess?) for 100% drop on pop
Fight NQ for a RANDOM drop of HQ
Fight HQ (Requiring friends also) for a RANDOM+DECREASED drop of the Black-belt item.

So you cant really do this solo like you could before. And the drop rate is decreased

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

sigworthy

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Well don't leave me in suspense.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Stop with your retarded pixie earring, bro, it was never good. And PLEASE, don't put put N legs on the level as D ring. Level increase is VERY likely to bring better legs items, it is very unlikely to bring anything better than black belt or defending ring.

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Wat? No shit it was never good. That's why I'm not bothering with KB. The changes of getting a Dring instead of that absolutely worthless Earring are slim to none. I'm not going to waste my time with it. As for Nlegs, they're the current best in slot for Chant du Cygne on Paladin last I checked. If there's something better, I'd love to hear about it (saves me time and seals). Frankly, I don't have anything better to spend my seals on regardless.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

You completely missed a huge factor in your 'calculations.'

Most people have these things called 'friends,' and their 'friends' will also want to do KS99s, NQ Kings, and HQ Kings for drops other than the BB items. Some MNKs have 'friends' who will use 100s of KS to help them get the BB item, on say, the Turtle path. There exist plenty of people in FFXI who aren't total dickwads, and these people will either sell or give away unwanted BB items at the Kings camps.

All these factors combined drastically improves the chances for MNKs to get needed BB items.

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Why would friends of friends want to do KS99 (except for D ring, again). The drops are garbage if you are not a mnk without black belt. iIf anything friends of friends would would want black belt for themselves. If those bcnm or hnm dropped anything valuable like gil item or any good rare/ex, I would believe you. If they wanted to fix the old content this way they are running into a wall because abyssea gives ABSOLUTELY no reason to do thoses NM or KSNMs.

Willing to bet if they dropped the KSNMs down to a new teir KSNM 10, made all the drops 100%, and gave you icecream after finishing off the HQ HNM people would still complain.

From what I've read there was no word on the KSNM having their BB items removed. So you have a chance of obtaining it there. There's a 100% chance of getting (at least one) of the pop items for the NQ. The NQ mobs have a chance of dropping a HQ nm pop, but no longer have their BB items. Look at it this way, before when you did the KSNM to try to get your BB item, you had no second chance. With it set up like this, you still have a chance to get it from the KSNM + you get a second chance at your BB item if you're lucky enough to get a HQ spawn drop from the NQ. Then finally onto the HQ, they did not say how drastically they would reduce the droprate.

There's no point in complaining before you know the full details. The way I see it you now have more than one chance at getting the BB item from doing the KSNMs than you did before. You also don't have to compete with other people anymore if you want to try for the HNMs items. Could it be made easier? Yes. Is it worse than what's in place now? Hell no.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

You completely missed a huge factor in your 'calculations.'

Most people have these things called 'friends,' and their 'friends' will also want to do KS99s, NQ Kings, and HQ Kings for drops other than the BB items. Some MNKs have 'friends' who will use 100s of KS to help them get the BB item, on say, the Turtle path. There exist plenty of people in FFXI who aren't total dickwads, and these people will either sell or give away unwanted BB items at the Kings camps.

All these factors combined drastically improves the chances for MNKs to get needed BB items.

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You also completely missed a huge factor lol his drop rates were OVERLY optimistic.

Also a lot of people just dont do these or have much reason to, nore level outside abyssea to even get KS.

MarkovChain Friends don't always require that they get something out of helping their friend. Some people are just nice like that. :)

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Why would friends of friends want to do KS99 (except for D ring, again). The drops are garbage if you are not a mnk without black belt. iIf anything friends of friends would would want black belt for themselves. If those bcnm or hnm dropped anything valuable like gil item or any good rare/ex, I would believe you.

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At this point, I kinda feel bad for Pchan. I say 'kinda' because, well, he is still Pchan.

The dude obviously does not understand the concept of friendship. He's either surrounded by horrible people or really does not have a single friend or any good people in his life.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

Willing to bet if they dropped the KSNMs down to a new teir KSNM 10, made all the drops 100%, and gave you icecream after finishing off the HQ HNM people would still complain.

From what I've read there was no word on the KSNM having their BB items removed. So you have a chance of obtaining it there. There's a 100% chance of getting (at least one) of the pop items for the NQ. The NQ mobs have a chance of dropping a HQ nm pop, but no longer have their BB items. Look at it this way, before when you did the KSNM to try to get your BB item, you had no second chance. With it set up like this, you still have a chance to get it from the KSNM + you get a second chance at your BB item if you're lucky enough to get a HQ spawn drop from the NQ. Then finally onto the HQ, they did not say how drastically they would reduce the droprate.

The new system is not a super imporvement of this unless the HQ mob really has a large chance at poping, which is not the impression we got from reading the dev message.



There's no point in complaining before you know the full details. The way I see it you now have more than one chance at getting the BB item from doing the KSNMs than you did before. You also don't have to compete with other people anymore if you want to try for the HNMs items. Could it be made easier? Yes. Is it worse than what's in place now? Hell no.

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You are right, looking at it this way it's a better system than the KSNM99 system from nowadays. Problem is noone was getting their black belt though this system in the first place because the droprate was pretty shit ( I remember doing 6-7 of them a few years ago with no drop, not even money drops lol). I you expect to get BB item just from KS99 right now you are probably looking at like 5 bcnms per item if not unlucky, that's 1500 kindred seals which take years to get, and you are not guarranted anything.

People are going to complain regardless of anything.

If SE changes the drop rate of BB items to 100% KS99, people are going to bitch about getting Black Belt being "too easy" and if they say that the drop rate of BB items for HQ NMs being at 50% people are going to bitch about getting Black Belt being "too hard"

Why not rejoice at the fact that this will hurt the HNM bots a whole lot more now than ever while giving those who either wish to not use bots or have other things to do (family, friends, work, life) than to camp a possible pop.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

At least in the old system you could buy it by offering enough gil, assuming people actually camped this shit which I doubt.

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And you can't offer gil through the new system by sitting in Aery/BD/VoS and watching alot (don't even try to spin this that ppl wont pop more than a single HQ over 3-9 days) more people pop HQ and get BB item drops? This benefits people who want to throw gil at shit as well.

Hell, you could sit in KS99 zones now since the popularity of spamming these runs will increase at least for the first week or two before people tap out on kindred seals.

tl;dr BB just got easier, quit QQin.

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What ? lol

Only the KSNM Pop item is 100%, the NQ one isnt.

So the path is:
Run around fighting mobs to get 99 KS's
Fight KSNM (Requiring friends i guess?) for 100% drop on pop
Fight NQ for a RANDOM drop of HQ
Fight HQ (Requiring friends also) for a RANDOM+DECREASED drop of the Black-belt item.

So you cant really do this solo like you could before. And the drop rate is decreased

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So they ninja edited the update, sue me. It`s 100% on NQ and something else for HQ. Which we don`t know yet, which means any numbers being thrown about any drop rates are pure speculation.

Some speculation of my own though (and i`m scarily accurate): I`d say you still have a better chance of getting your item from the HQ king than claiming any of the current HNM and getting the drop. Plus they don`t seem to be planning to remove BB items from the KS fights themselves.

Also, If you could solo it, why haven`t you done it yet?

Bots are really no longer a concern as far as kings go, Since most HNM's aren't camping them like they used to.

I'm honestly embarrassed for the people complaining about this change, how hard is it for you to understand their motives?

Camping kings is still hard (if there's any competition for the spawn) and very time consuming, and SE doesn't want you to be able to force your feelings of entitlement on your LS/friends just because you stood in Abyssea for a day on a certain job.

If you're still having trouble understanding this, I'll give an example. Pretend this is 2003/2004. If you're in an LS that is completing DOMINATING at claiming spawns, you're more likely to level a new job just to be able to collect gear from your LS.

It's putting an infinite workload on the people around you just because something is/became easier (claims back then, leveling jobs now)

The people who are still highly committed to their newly leveled job will either spend their KS's accordingly, or plow through mobs solo for their chance at king gear.

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Originally Posted by Ravensbane

Um... I guess you didn't read this before you posted it...




"...right of passage... earned through gil..." Seriously? This is why the HNM ls's camped the things so much. Idiots that think it is EARNING the BB by paying someone to use RMT like methods to get them the items is just... ... moronic. Sorry, I stuck idiots and moronic in the same sentence... Why not make it so we can just buy the BB for 6mil from an npc, if using gil is a justified "right of passage"?

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It was a right of passage because not only did you have to find the gil or do the ksnm's or claim an nq and pray for a drop (which I got my tongue from an nq drop and my beard through ksnm I had to buy my egg). So yes I consider it a right of passage showing up for nq pop windows and making sure you were on for the hq for a chance to buy it everyday for a month or two. For people who think its so easy to buy a blackbelt get the money and try to get it faster than a month. Other than luck being on your side or already being in one of the hnm ls's I doubt it would happen. So think before you call someone moronic. Because some of us earned our black belts. Not everyone completely buys one.

This just... ugh.... sucks. Since things aren't camped much at all anymore, this seems really unnecessary. Currently, if you want something from hnm you just need some friends who are willing to show up and help you out. With this update, you have to use 99 (seriously?) kindred seals to simply get a pop item (most of the other drops aren't worth all that much now, iirc) and then another fight to get your drop. Given how long it takes to get 99 seals (remember how long it took when you did xp on non-abyssean mobs?) this just makes it harder, I would think, to get said items.

I'm all for pop items used for some nm's, but they should have done this a long time ago when it actually would have mattered. I also think if they made it 40 or 50 seals or something like that rather than 99, it would be a better solution. Just glad I got what I needed from them a long time ago...

I don't understand why they couldn't have just had us killing the surrounding monsters at the pop locations to get pop items. It works great on other monsters they adjusted awhile back like Alky.

Now, I say this as a person who currently doesn't really need anything off of these kings, though a abj or two might be okay for completion sake but still... I feel this is a terrible system. Requiring 99 KS aside, the turtle is still a bitch to this day. I don't even know what the point is at this point to even changing these HNM pop conditions. There aren't many people camping them. Yeah, sure, okay. They don't roam for days at a time but still.

And I'm not sure how this change is supposed to drag people back to other areas of the game so I don't know why that is even brought up by people. It drags monks back into the rest of the game. That's about it. I mean, it's great that SE is finally giving in but it's 8 years too late. Tons of casual players have waited years for the hardcore playerbase to move on from HNMs. They were blocked for so very long. Now they are free to go after them only for the game to be changed up at this point and make it even HARDER for them to attain the items they've wanted for ages. That is why this change hurts. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Killing darters or manticores or ..... or.... oh.... right.... KB doesn't have jack squat in his area to kill. At least not EP wise. I really hope KSNM wasn't their answer to the lack of mobs to kill for pop items in KBs hometown. Like seriously just let the too weaks drop it.... anyways killing monsters around the pop areas "should" be the way to go, with NQ drop rates lowered severely(namely Fafnir and ridill), with HQ pop items from that being low drop rates. But it's like whatever to me, I don't actually need anything from these things aside from abj for my collection and a defending ring, and the ring isn't worth my time right now. Got too much to do and too little time to do it all. But I feel bad for people who were blocked for so many years only to be blocked yet again by SE. Good luck killing the KS NMs, is all I can say. I guess it's better to at least have a chance than none at all, in regards to the level cap raise, for what it's worth.

And phew, glad I hit up Fafnir/Nidhogg before this change went in.

Who knows, maybe they might lower the rate of seals used to get orbs to enter these battlefields....

...or convert the seals to crests

Maybe gives us alternate ways to obtain the orbs. Like 99 KSs, OR 50 KCs, OR 25 HKCs.

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Originally Posted by Vold

I don't understand why they couldn't have just had us killing the surrounding monsters at the pop locations to get pop items. It works great on other monsters they adjusted awhile back like Alky.-snip-

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Dring flooding and ??? crowding would reach record highs. Behemoth's Dominion would become the new Port Gukumatz's Aery.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Dring flooding and ??? crowding would reach record highs. Behemoth's Dominion would become the new Port Gukumatz's Aery.

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Good, that means I can get shit done 1-3 weeks after the update without having to worry about people trying to kill me

This has got to be the stupidest kick in the face SE has done yet, it was hard enough to get a black belt before, now they want to make it near impossible. Do a 99ksnm so you can get a pop item that does not guarantee the HQ version will pop and it is no longer a 100% drop. And no chance at all if the NQ version pops. Very disappointing SE........... Kinda like FFXIV.
I don't know about most of you but I have already dropped about 500 KS trying to get the items from the KSNM battlefields with no luck at all. Guess now It'll cost me millions to buy other people's orbs for the KSNM so i have about a 1 in 50 chance at getting 1 of the 3 items needed. /disgusted.

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Originally Posted by Madmax

This has got to be the stupidest kick in the face SE has done yet, it was hard enough to get a black belt before, now they want to make it near impossible. Do a 99ksnm so you can get a pop item that does not guarantee the HQ version will pop and it is no longer a 100% drop. And no chance at all if the NQ version pops. Very disappointing SE........... Kinda like FFXIV.
I don't know about most of you but I have already dropped about 500 KS trying to get the items from the KSNM battlefields with no luck at all. Guess now It'll cost me millions to buy other people's orbs for the KSNM so i have about a 1 in 50 chance at getting 1 of the 3 items needed. /disgusted.

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Assuming that the BB item also will be removed from the KSNM99. Then you would be right.

It said nothing about KS99 BB items being removed.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Give me a reason for people that don't want BB to waste their seal on Fafnir or Adamantoise.

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You act as if people don't like to help friends obtain gear.

What happens when people run out of seals? How are you planning on farming more? This has ramifications outside of people helping other people. What happens when you got through over 1k seals to help someone and nobody has anymore? You gonna go spend hours on end farming ks's? This system puts an expiration date on kings if anything.

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What happens when people run out of seals? How are you planning on farming more? This has ramifications outside of people helping other people. What happens when you got through over 1k seals to help someone and nobody has anymore? You gonna go spend hours on end farming ks's? This system puts an expiration date on kings if anything.

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You go kill mobs, it's not rocket surgery. Very similar to y'know, the magian trials we've all put ourselves through for the last 9 months.

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Originally Posted by Staren

What happens when people run out of seals? How are you planning on farming more? This has ramifications outside of people helping other people. What happens when you got through over 1k seals to help someone and nobody has anymore? You gonna go spend hours on end farming ks's? This system puts an expiration date on kings if anything.

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Because farming up KSs is hard. No seriously, its so hard i cant do it while i go make some elemental TotM weapons.

Do you know the average time estimation for it? Can you say its a valid ROI? I avoid the hell out of magian trials with the exceptions of empyrean armor and empyrean weapons. The rest are just great ways to blow time and I guess farm ks's. I wonder what that time sink would be solo 1 per 5 mins x 99 for 1 pop that might not drop the hq pop which is what you really want and then you need at least a couple other people. I mean if you're at home in mom and dad's basement and dont have a job or school or responsibilities...I guess this would seem feasible and acceptable for people who wanted pops for Kings. I know the most efficient way to do it but that still is a best case scenario of 2.5hrs for one pop. So again ROI, level of reasonable time invested, 99% of the games population doesnt have the patience to level outside abby anymore good luck convincing people to waste over 3 hrs of their life for one ksnm run and one chance at an hq pop item.

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Originally Posted by Staren

Do you know the average time estimation for it? Can you say its a valid ROI? I avoid the hell out of magian trials with the exceptions of empyrean armor and empyrean weapons. The rest are just great ways to blow time and I guess farm ks's. I wonder what that time sink would be solo 1 per 5 mins x 99 for 1 pop that might not drop the hq pop which is what you really want and then you need at least a couple other people. I mean if you're at home in mom and dad's basement and dont have a job or school or responsibilities...I guess this would seem feasible and acceptable for people who wanted pops for Kings. I know the most efficient way to do it but that still is a best case scenario of 2.5hrs for one pop. So again ROI, reason ability, 99% of the games population doesnt have the patience to level outside abby anymore good luck convincing people to waste over 3 hrs of their life for one ksnm run and one chance at an hq pop item.

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I guess if nothing else drops from KSNM99/NQ/HQ, then you would be right.

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Originally Posted by Staren

Do you know the average time estimation for it? Can you say its a valid ROI? I avoid the hell out of magian trials with the exceptions of empyrean armor and empyrean weapons. The rest are just great ways to blow time and I guess farm ks's. I wonder what that time sink would be solo 1 per 5 mins x 99 for 1 pop that might not drop the hq pop which is what you really want and then you need at least a couple other people. I mean if you're at home in mom and dad's basement and dont have a job or school or responsibilities...I guess this would seem feasible and acceptable for people who wanted pops for Kings. I know the most efficient way to do it but that still is a best case scenario of 2.5hrs for one pop. So again ROI, reason ability, 99% of the games population doesnt have the patience to level outside abby anymore good luck convincing people to waste over 3 hrs of their life for one ksnm run and one chance at an hq pop item.

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At least now people who have lives can slowly work on getting pops for a chance at the item rather then being unable to since they cant be on when they pop. Sure they can just reduce the pop time to 2.5 hours for each of them, but then really that's just handing out BB on a silver platter. Let it some rareity to it.