Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation

THF PUP MNK RNG and DNC should be able to equip the Grim Cuirass and other heavy armors. There is no reason SE should not do this because DRG used to be restricted to leather and cloth armor and was later moved to plate. In addition there is a lot of mage specific gear with MP and enhancements to spellcasting abilities that these jobs can equip. If they an equip that, then why not heavy armors as well?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

there are plenty of ways you can make up stuff like that. It's a freakin' fantasy world, SE can do whatever it wants.

You'd expect the key representatives of DNC and SCH at least to be using a relic weapon in the crystal war, since there are NPCs wielding the other relics. Adelheid is seen wearing some club in battle. I don't really recognize the model, but it looks unique. The lead NPC in the dancer squad in Pashhow [S] doesn't use a mandau, if I'm recalling correctly. They really wouldn't need to twist the lore much to add in relic weapons for those two. The other three would take more work but they can essentially make up whatever they please.

So whatever you do, don't play the lore card. SE can do whatever they want with the lore. There is lots of lore in the game that doesn't make much sense, especially in WOTG.

Fan Dance

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Its SE, they can do whatever they want. Like add DNC and Mandau and change the leader of the DNCs in WoTG to using a Mandau.

You really can't play the "se can do whatever they want card" but then say "SE would never do this"

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

They really wouldn't need to twist the lore much to add in relic weapons for those two. The other three would take more work but they can essentially make up whatever they please.

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Mandau's owner in the Crystal War was a Taru THF as described in the Vanadiel Tribune and shown in the cutscene where you receive it from his ghost.

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

So. What. That's like saying it's unfair for blue mage to use Homam because it didn't exist when Homam came out. That is like saying it's unfair for corsair to even wield Blood/Crimson Cuisses (aka W.Legs)

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BLU didn't exist as a player job but one the the NPCs in the cutscene that plays when you get your first piece ot Homam or Nashira is a blue mage, and mentions how researching the biomechanical weapon body part you have turned in will aid in "reviving the light deity" (aka Alexander) This was years before TOAU.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

THF PUP MNK RNG and DNC should be able to equip the Grim Cuirass and other heavy armors. There is no reason SE should not do this because DRG used to be restricted to leather and cloth armor and was later moved to plate. In addition there is a lot of mage specific gear with MP and enhancements to spellcasting abilities that these jobs can equip. If they an equip that, then why not heavy armors as well?

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Seriously, this isn't a topic about the imbalance associated with DNC updates compared to what THFs have gotten, so why are you still here arguing? It's very obvious your only motive in feeling the way you do is based merely on you feeling scorned by the DNC updates and what you feel it has done to THF, but do I really have to repeat that this topic has other jobs in the mix that need to be factored in here? Your last argument where you attempted to blur the clear line here with "armor arguments" was your weakest attempt yet at creating a whole lot of something out of nothing.

The topic is simple one. There are three classes of end game 'top tier' weapons. Five of the game's jobs are limited to only two of them. We're requesting SE fix that. The End. Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Its SE, they can do whatever they want. Like add DNC and Mandau and change the leader of the DNCs in WoTG to using a Mandau.

You really can't play the "se can do whatever they want card" but then say "SE would never do this"

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Actually I can. Anyone who's played this game for long enough can discern what things SE is and isn't likely to do. They could change the lore and add new weapons, they could add a giant cake monster that drop train engines which you use to open a cookie and find the magic flute, which summon palm trees until monkeys fall down. Then you beat the monkeys wearing hats because there are monkeys that don't wear hats that help you fight the ones that do wear hats. Then you collect the power orbs they drop and use them to open a chest that holds the Sword of Plot Advancement +2. They could add Ryu from Street Fighter and have him throw hadukens at absolute virtue to beat him. They could have a fight with Altana and you use the master sword with the triforce of courage to summon the monster from the black lagoon to raise your power level over 9000 to be able to win.

The only thing I know for sure is a community rep posted in this thread to say they're not planning to add the new jobs to the relic weapons. That, of course, doesn't prevent them from doing something else if they so wish. That "something else" is about as bout as likely to be my idea as it is anyone elses.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Actually I can. Anyone who's played this game for long enough can discern what things SE is and isn't likely to do. They could change the lore and add new weapons, they could add a giant cake monster that drop train engines which you use to open a cookie and find the magic flute, which summon palm trees until monkeys fall down. Then you beat the monkeys wearing hats because there are monkeys that don't wear hats that help you fight the ones that do wear hats. Then you collect the power orbs they drop and use them to open a chest that holds the Sword of Plot Advancement +2. They could add Ryu from Street Fighter and have him throw hadukens at absolute virtue to beat him. They could have a fight with Altana and you use the master sword with the triforce of courage to summon the monster from the black lagoon to raise your power level over 9000 to be able to win.

The only thing I know for sure is a community rep posted in this thread to say they're not planning to add the new jobs to the relic weapons. That, of course, doesn't prevent them from doing something else if they so wish. That "something else" is about as bout as likely to be my idea as it is anyone elses.

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Oh ok, so you can say what SE can and can't do but anyone else can't Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Oh ok, so you can say what SE can and can't do but anyone else can't Gotcha.

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No,, you don't gotcha. What did I even say about anyone else in that post except for this:

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is about as bout as likely to be my idea as it is anyone elses.

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Means think up whatever the hell you want. SE is about as likely to implement it as anything I can think up.

Man, people just can't read today. I'm not dictating what SE can or can't do. I could post the badger badger mushroom mushroom song and somehow you'd interpret it to mean that I think all people who have armor that is colored blue should be banned from the game.

You said it yourself. SE can do whatever they want. Who is disputing this? Not me.

I'd be much more excited about the possibility of DNC on Mandau if the Attack+35 worked offhand. It may still be a very competitive option without that, but Attack+35 would really make it clearly the best. I'd probably get one.

I've heard thfs swear by main twashtar, offhand mandau as incredible, but I haven't personally experienced it.

Those THFs may not have noticed that Mandau is nothing more than Delay/Damage when you equip it offhand.

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Originally Posted by Insaniac

Those THFs may not have noticed that Mandau is nothing more than Delay/Damage when you equip it offhand.

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Yes but it's the highest Delay/DMG dagger in the game and that alone makes it the best offhand weapon you can equip opposite Twastar even without the +35 attack. Although it can be argued that Mandau/Twastar is better than Twastar/Mandau due to Twastar actually granting it's +15 DEX offhand.

That was kind of my point but I'm pretty sure there are quite a few free daggers that produce similar or better results in the off hand. Admittedly, I have never run the numbers because the thought of making a Twashtar has never even crossed my mind.

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Originally Posted by Briarb19

Seriously, this isn't a topic about the imbalance associated with DNC updates compared to what THFs have gotten, so why are you still here arguing? It's very obvious your only motive in feeling the way you do is based merely on you feeling scorned by the DNC updates and what you feel it has done to THF, but do I really have to repeat that this topic has other jobs in the mix that need to be factored in here? Your last argument where you attempted to blur the clear line here with "armor arguments" was your weakest attempt yet at creating a whole lot of something out of nothing.

The topic is simple one. There are three classes of end game 'top tier' weapons. Five of the game's jobs are limited to only two of them. We're requesting SE fix that. The End. Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

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THANK YOU, jesus. It's like if DNC didn't use daggers that person wouldn't have even been in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Briarb19

Seriously, this isn't a topic about the imbalance associated with DNC updates compared to what THFs have gotten, so why are you still here arguing? It's very obvious your only motive in feeling the way you do is based merely on you feeling scorned by the DNC updates and what you feel it has done to THF, but do I really have to repeat that this topic has other jobs in the mix that need to be factored in here? Your last argument where you attempted to blur the clear line here with "armor arguments" was your weakest attempt yet at creating a whole lot of something out of nothing.

The topic is simple one. There are three classes of end game 'top tier' weapons. Five of the game's jobs are limited to only two of them. We're requesting SE fix that. The End. Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

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This. It shouldn't even be a major issue because only a minority of players have Mandau and will have Mandau. Even then, considering that one of the two 'top tier' (The Mythic Weapons) is virtually impossible to obtain with no clear sign of changing this in the next 6 months, and then considering how easy it is to obtain the empyrean weapon, I still believe that this needs to be changed.

And no, adding 5 new relic weapons will not fix it. It is a pointless fix when the current weapon type already exists.

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

So. What. That's like saying it's unfair for blue mage to use Homam because it didn't exist when Homam came out. That is like saying it's unfair for corsair to even wield Blood/Crimson Cuisses (aka W.Legs)

Edit: let me tell you that W.legs is NOt an easy piece of gear to obtain due to its rarity.

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yes it's unfair that blu can equip homam because he can also equip nashira and W abju, corcan equip W abju set and pup can't equip any

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Originally Posted by hiko

yes it's unfair that blu can equip homam because he can also equip nashira and W abju, corcan equip W abju set and pup can't equip any

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Not the same argument

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Not the same argument

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but same argument that blu cor pup dnc sch dont have acces to relic

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.

Oh, wait. That would be retarded.

I think we're done here.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.

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While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP.

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But in the event that a new h2h job were added then, from Alhanelem stand point, yes.

of course that would leave you with only access to a mythic weapon no relic or empy; as well as, from Alhanelem stand point, you, as a new h2h job, should have no access to preexisting h2h ToM weapons. the job did no exist when the weapons were conceived therefore you having them could destroy the universe. (This is purely for stating a point so don't get hung up on the mentioning of the fictional new h2h job)

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Originally Posted by Arcon

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

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Oh, okay.

I only have MNK unlocked. I want a 50% refund on the man-hours it took to get my Verethragna.

I understand where you're trying to come from, but I feel like this tripe can go both ways. If it is my responsibility to create a new Ultimate weapon for each job to keep them at a 1:1 ratio, then it should follow that I should get a refund on my efforts when using a 2-job weapon on 1 job. Obviously this is ridiculous, but so is the notion that jobs can't be added to relics because "people need to work more".

In the end, who gives a crap if they increase the functional value of some relics by adding jobs to them? The only one worth half a shit in this context is Mandau, and even then who really cares? Boo hoo, Dancer can do things that Thief can do? Corsair can do things that Ranger can do, too. That line of reasoning is no less petty than the DRK conniption fit that was had when it was announced that Automatons would get Dread Spikes.

Arguing over this bullshit is like arguing over whether or not Koga Tekko should get their nighttime restriction removed. It's a random, convenient buff that doesn't really do anything at all aside from save 1 inventory space. Key word: Convenience. Who gets hurt when Ninjas can wear Koga Tekko during the day? No one. Who gets hurt when BLU can wear Excal? No one. When COR can wear Annihilator? No one. When DNC can wear Mandau? No one. Really. No one. The damn near insignificant difference between Mandau and Twashtar is not going to make or break Thief's role in the game.

SCH doesn't even have the combat skill to wield the most useless, pathetic Relic in the game worth a damn so no one really gives a shit if they get Claustrum either.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The damn near insignificant difference between Mandau and Twashtar is not going to make or break Thief's role in the game.

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It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

What exactly did they give to dnc that thf have been asking for?

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

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I'm assuming you're implying Twilight saga/series is supposed to be horror, if you are then you're the first person I've ever seen make that connection. If you aren't implying that then why single out horror film lovers?

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

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That's a terrible analogy and the complaint you outline is one of job design, not one of gear availability. Get over it and focus your vindictiveness more constructively.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

What exactly did they give to dnc that thf have been asking for?

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Forced critical hit (Sneak Attack), forced triple attack (Assassin's Charge), Subtle Blow bonus, Accuracy Bonus, high Evasion Bonus, higher tiers of Dual Wield, which allows DNC subs other than NIN to DD, while THF still has to use it for nothing else but increasing a trait they already have themselves. I probably missed something.

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

That's a terrible analogy and the complaint you outline is one of job design, not one of gear availability. Get over it and focus your vindictiveness more constructively.

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He didn't complain, he just explained why THFs feel as they do, and he's right. And he's also right about why THF feel that way about Mandau, because it's one of the extremely few edges THF has over DNC. Not that it changes anything about the job design, but that's how it is.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Forced critical hit (Sneak Attack), forced triple attack (Assassin's Charge), Subtle Blow bonus, Accuracy Bonus, high Evasion Bonus, higher tiers of Dual Wield, which allows DNC subs other than NIN to DD, while THF still has to use it for nothing else but increasing a trait they already have themselves. I probably missed something.

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So, you mean they gave things to DNC that THF already had, not, they give things to DNC that THFs have been asking for.

THF has higher Evasion then DNC still. DNCs TA is nothing to really talk about and a THF can use SA more then a DNC can. (Granted DNC can do it from the front, THF can as well with Bully)

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Originally Posted by Kimble

So, you mean they gave things to DNC that THF already had, not, they give things to DNC that THFs have been asking for.

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No, I meant both. Only Sneak Attack, Triple Attack and Evasion Bonus were things THF already had. The rest was stuff THF wanted (Accuracy Bonus, Subtle Blow, Dual Wield).

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

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Oh. So bringing Dancer up from broken, useless pile of crap to respectable DD is bad because it shares traits that already work well on the other dagger-wielding job? That's astounding.

There's a whole can of worms one could open by saying "Don't fix what ain't broke", because we both know that Thief could be in a better place right now, but I don't see anything wrong with SE fixing the most terrible, languishing jobs first. Puppetmaster is in the middle of a huge AI/automaton overhaul, too. Corsair received a massive XI Roll buff, and Miser's/Tacticians/Wildfire gave it a legitimate reason to exist next to Bard. Blue mage received HNM spells, and Scholar is being reworked.

Sure, the bottom of the pyramid may be closer to the top now, but that's only because they've been overhauled while the top of the pyramid hasn't. I have little doubt that Thief will receive the love it needs. Its need simply isn't as great as the famously defunct jobs that the Devs are working with right now.

Inb4 Mellowy and/or no one cares about Summoner people.

Pretty much the arguments in this thread have been rather lame and irrelevant.

"These jobs wern't out at the time so they must not be able to use the weapon, make new weapons for them!"

This isn't Mythic weapons, multiple jobs can already use the weapons. What game have you ever played when adding new classes these new classes couldn't use a weapon simply cause they were a new class? It didn't work this way in Phantasy Star games another Japanese MMO.

Relic weapons have always been for multiple jobs, so don't act like they're Mythic weapons. We don't need job specific Relics when Mythics handle this.

"THF is absolute dog pile crap, why do I play this game when DNC is my mortal enemy and i'm absolutely jealous, stunned yet appalled that my inferior THF is the worst thing in this game and does 0 damage and doesn't get invited over DNC! Don't give them Mandau, i'll feel like I heal the enemies every time I swing!"

This is absurd on so many levels. You are very biased when it comes to this because you have no objection when it comes to other jobs using Relic weapons but DNC using the Mandau is the most horrible thing in the world.

Once again, THF gets invited to parties all the time. You stated before they don't, if you really think THF doesn't get invited to parties than you must not actually be playing the game at all and you bought your account with the Mandau on it. Maybe that's why you don't put your actual character name on the forums who knows?

Giving DNC the Mandau isn't going to change how THF gets into parties. No one's going to say "SOEGJOSEJG DNC MANDAU! GET DA FAWK OUTTA HERE THIEF!" Just not going to happen. This won't change anything just make players a little more happy and you bitter for no apparent reason.

As person who does have Mandau, but isn't really an avid user of Dnc I can't see how this is overly broken. Does it seem unfair? Only about as unfair as Dnc using Twashtar at this point.

It's a great Evisceration weapon and the +att is welcomed in most cases, but the only reason to offhand it is the obvious Dmg/Delay and only if you have a better mainhand. This comes down to situational use however if you have both relic and emp daggers. Ideal situation Twashtar is better main, unideal mandau is admittedly better since you'll still get 3x dmg proc without needing the ws and it is better for evis main-hand.

I wouldn't mind seeing other jobs added to pre-existing weapons also, but I can see where people that have been latched to the job that relic was originally built for have a betrayed sense of injustice being done to them. Then again I look at some of the pre-existing jobs that can use side relic weapons and I wonder just what is so wrong about letting other jobs that have similar rated weapon skill ranks be able to also use the weapon (aka brd and rdm are on mandau, rdm is on excalibur, war is on gsword yet have lower than A- rank). Personally, I'd rather see an update that made using it offhand still retained at least the +att or +acc of relic at the very least....but in the case of Excalibur I can see why additional effects in offhand would still be a no-go.

I feel stupid responding, but I feel I have to do it to save an actually useful thread from being locked. This is a non-issue. I wish people would stop bringing it up.

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Originally Posted by Briarb19

Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

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Only one person complained about DNC getting Mandau, once, and it was over ten pages ago. No one else and not even that person has argued about "DNC vs. THF". Your statement is completely unjustified. There was no "DNC vs THF" arguing in here (especially not in the quoted post), but this statement, ironically, spawned it all. Now I feel like I should comment too, just to make some things clear. Please note that despite my stance on this issue, I do feel strongly that DNC should be added to Mandau, just like I believe all new jobs should be added to their respective main weapons.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I have little doubt that Thief will receive the love it needs.

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I kinda hate arguing about this further, since I agree with you. It's only that this statement, I just know, will upset many THFs. Because the last good thing THF has gotten since Sneak Attack was Bully, which, if you look at it, is a very minor damage boost when soloing only. Yet when they got it (in its current form) THFs were ecstatic, because it was the only kind of loving they got in the better part of a decade. So it'll take quite a leap of faith for THFs to believe that the job will receive the love it needs, because they've been shown the opposite for years, despite their constant begging.

THF has many completely objective shortcomings compared to DNC, and the only reason it gets invited to stuff is because it's still a somewhat decent evasion tank and of course for TH. The last part, however, was again a slap in THF's face because SE is giving TH abilities away to other jobs. RNG and BST have both the ability to apply TH3 on a mob (RNG can even use the augmented Tarutaru Sash, which THF can't), and to make matters worse yet, player testing has shown that TH has extremely diminishing returns after TH2. That's why you'll see so many BST soloing their relics in a few months and that's why people are bring a /THF mule instead of a THF if they can't afford to spare the slot in their party (I can't count how many WHM/THFs mule I've seen in Abyssea, Dynamis, sea and sky). And as a final bitch slap, TH is almost completely useless in Voidwatch, the only place with current content.

Having said that, yes, THF does still get invited, even without Mandau. But that's usually due to the following reasons: a) they can spare a spot and like the additional TH, no matter how little it does, b) they don't know how little it actually does (many fall into this category, people still think TH10 actually does something over TH7), c) the player doesn't have any other viable jobs, or d) they're trying an evasion tank strategy. Since c) isn't really an argument for THF, and a) and b) involve a broken or misunderstood game mechanic and don't require a THF so much as its trait, d) is the only thing THF is actually useful for, and the number of mobs that are evasion tanked is getting smaller and smaller.

I hate even having to say that, because it's been said over and over again by the entire THF community, and it doesn't belong in here either, but these are just the facts and dispute some claims other people have made recently. As I said before, there was no THF vs. DNC arguing initially, people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there. Now everyone is talking against no one. There is literally no issue here. Just let it drop and go back on topic.

Technically, Bully is the last substantial buff THF has gotten since Assassin. Assassin was a pretty huge upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there.

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What? You know how long it took me to get to a point where I wrote what I just said a few hours ago? Atomic_Skull was the one who kept going on and on about how they should not put Mandau on DNC. Try reading the thread again.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Technically, Bully is the last substantial buff THF has gotten since Assassin. Assassin was a pretty huge upgrade.

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For THF standards, maybe, which is sad to say in itself. But one forced triple attack every 5min isn't very noticeable in the long run, especially considering a base Triple Attack rate of almost 20%, meaning every fifth AC on average doesn't even do anything. And on a multihit WS, it does nowhere near triple damage, especially if you consider Double Attack can kick in sometimes too, in which case the increase would be even less. So in short, you have a 30~50% damage increase on every 15~20 WS, depending on your support. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, I generally rarely am, but it's nowhere near as useful as Sneak Attack, which is why I didn't compare it to that.

Unless I'm confusing it with something else, I think Assassin was actually added after the level cap was raised to 75. I think it came before Tier 2 merits though, so it does depend how much you care about Assassin's Charge.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Unless I'm confusing it with something else, I think Assassin was actually added after the level cap was raised to 75. I think it came before Tier 2 merits though, so it does depend how much you care about Assassin's Charge.

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Oh my bad... I can't speak to that, I'm afraid, it was added before I started, I assumed it was there all along. Still, that's quite a long time ago then.

EDIT: already answered

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Originally Posted by Arcon

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

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It shouldn't even be a problem to begin with, there shouldn't even be a line to begin with. To Date. Dancer and Scholar, for the most part, can't even touch most of the major gears because they are the latest two jobs. SE, originally said that "they're planning for good gears for Dancers and Scholars." There was hardly anything outside of AF, Relic set, and Empyrean armor set (and for the most part, are still good stuff, I won't deny this). Only Abyssea gears did this actually change significantly. IE: Gears like movement speed for DNC and Loki's body, etc.

They can't equip any of the Abjuration set. They can't equip any of the salvage set. They can't equip any of the homam/nashira set. It's not a huge deal now because most of the said gears have already been replaced for the most part, but then what happens when those set gets upgraded, and they're actually useful. Oops. Dancer and Scholar gets screwed again.

There's nothing unfair about them getting those set just because those jobs came out after the said gear sets were released. This is the same with relic. They should've been added to relics long time ago, if you ask me, and they need to fix this.

There are no "freebies" or "free hand outs" or anything unfair, just because some joe blow has mandau for his THF and dinged into Dancer and can use Mandau. I still fail to see how this is unfair. He already worked hard for the weapon, why should he have to work more just so he can use it on Dancer? This is the same for all five of the new jobs.

The argument is: All 20 jobs have access to Mythics, all 20 jobs have access to Empyrean. Why can't all 20 jobs have access to relics. (without making new relic weapons just because those 5 jobs are "too new" for relics.)

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Only one person complained about DNC getting Mandau, once, and it was over ten pages ago. No one else and not even that person has argued about "DNC vs. THF". Your statement is completely unjustified. There was no "DNC vs THF" arguing in here (especially not in the quoted post), but this statement, ironically, spawned it all. Now I feel like I should comment too, just to make some things clear. Please note that despite my stance on this issue, I do feel strongly that DNC should be added to Mandau, just like I believe all new jobs should be added to their respective main weapons.

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Well this isn't the first thread and whenever this thread gets around, there's always an argument that Dancers have "stolen enough" from THF, and that DNC having Mandau would somehow "kill THF". All in all it's really a stupid argument, considering that THF and DNC are still a different beast with or without Mandau.

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Unless I'm confusing it with something else, I think Assassin was actually added after the level cap was raised to 75. I think it came before Tier 2 merits though, so it does depend how much you care about Assassin's Charge.

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Pretty sure Assassin came out in 2005, and made Trick attack as strong as Sneak Attack. To be honest, for the long time, I was content with how THF was and felt that there wasn't any necessary changes. Accomplice and Collaboration makes it even easier to manage hate, and allows mages to have better chance to survive due to hate generation.

Also, let's not forget that SE did boosted the higher end dagger base damage in the past. (I think it was 2006 when the did this?)

The only thing that did bug me was the fact that they were giving Treasure Hunters abilities to other classes, but it's really kind of moot because even with the diminishing return, people will always go to THF for stronger TH boost as opposed to RNG, or subjob with /THF.

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As I said before, there was no THF vs. DNC arguing initially, people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there. Now everyone is talking against no one. There is literally no issue here. Just let it drop and go back on topic.

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Correct. It's not an issue because A) People having Mandau will always be in a minority, because it is a difficult weapon to get. B) IT shouldn't even matter because THF and DNC are both primary dagger users, and therefore, should have no problem with using Mandau. Hell it makes more sense to me for THF and DNC to use Mandau than BRD and RDM.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Because the last good thing THF has gotten since Sneak Attack was Bully, which, if you look at it, is a very minor damage boost when soloing only. Yet when they got it (in its current form) THFs were ecstatic, because it was the only kind of loving they got in the better part of a decade

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And they had to get out the pitchforks and burning torches just to get that much. In it's original form Bully increased treasure hunter proc rate.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

So it'll take quite a leap of faith for THFs to believe that the job will receive the love it needs, because they've been shown the opposite for years, despite their constant begging.

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THF is the butt monkey of FFXI, they are basically Stink from the Korgoth of Barbaria pilot.