Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation

[Briarb19]

Reading through the old topics, I still don't see a response from a rep on this and I'm sure some of us BLUs, SCHs, CORs, PUPs, and DNCs would still appreciate being given the same variety of end game weapons to choose from as the rest of the jobs in the game. None of the relic weapons applicable are particularly game breaking and the only one with a questionable enhancement is Spharai. Are there other balance issues that I'm not seeing?

BLU on Excalibur - Another toy at best, no balancing issues required.
DNC on Mandau - Basically just a variation of Twashtar.
SCH on Claustrum - Arguably, this is really not a strong weapon that offers anything game breaking to SCH, so there should be no issues adding them merely for completion's sake (sorry SCHs).
COR on Annihilator - A physical version of Armageddon. RNGs will still continue to pull ahead given all their abilities.
PUPs on Spharai - Ok, Counter IV would be broken on PUP. So just make it a MNK only enhancement. Done. Or give them a PUP only enhancement if it's not so much work. Either one works and handles the balance issue fine.

If the goal is/was to encourage us to work on mythics, it's not going to work, especially nowadays. There are two issues with mythics - the alex requirement and the fact that the majority of mythics have weak weapon skills that render the weapon impractical. Preventing us from making relics for one of our ToAU/WoG jobs will not fix these issues that turn people off from mythics. If you want people working on mythics, fix the alex (sounds like this is taken care of) and beef up their weapon skills across the board.

If the problem is simply story, is anybody really going to complain here if the story doesn't 'fit' perfect? I don't care if you simply add us on as an 'augment' after the entire quest is done on another job. Just allow us to use them. Or come up with some simple story for it. You did it for relic armor and no one complained, so why not relic weapons?

Allowing the ToAU/WoG jobs to use relics would only create a significant amount of additional end game content for players and allow those who enjoy those newer jobs the opportunity to take advantage of the dynamis changes along with the rest of the playerbase.

I really think this change should be considered or at least a reasonable explanation finally provided indicating why this change isn't possible.

And please people ... do not derail this and make it a topic about mythics or whether relics are 'worth' getting. Eventually a rep will at least comment if we just stay focused.

Edit:
Without some indication from SE on why they won't implement this, there's only so much we can do. In the mean time, here are some things to discuss:

- How adding ToAU/WoG jobs to relics will benefit those jobs
- How this change will benefit SE
- Suggestions in terms of ways to resolve the 'story' issue aspect of this change
- Fixes for possible 'balance' issues

[Juri_Licious]

I was thinking about making a thread of why DNC can't use the Relic Dagger.
They might as well do this.

Only way I can use Mercy Stroke currently is with the Clement skean.

[Atomic_Skull]

I was thinking about making a thread of why DNC can't use the Relic Dagger.
They might as well do this.

Only way I can use Mercy Stroke currently is with the Clement skean.

SE has given DNC too much of THF's stuff already. No more please.

[Briarb19]

SE has given DNC too much of THF's stuff already. No more please.

Mandau is arguably no more powerful than Twashtar, so adding DNC would have literally zero impact on job balance between the two. Simply preferring DNC not be on it 'just because' should not be considered a valid reason for not adding the TOAU/WoG jobs to the relic weapons.

[Atomic_Skull]

Mandau is arguably no more powerful than Twashtar, so adding DNC would have literally zero impact on job balance between the two. Simply preferring DNC not be on it 'just because' should not be considered a valid reason for not adding the TOAU/WoG jobs to the relic weapons.

Relics are going to get another update at 99 while empyreans will most likely just get a bit of extra DMG and +stat like they did at 95.

You realize that relic-class weapons get no bonuses whatsoever when wielded off-hand, right? This was announced back when mythics were added, so people can't use a relic in one hand and a mythic in the other.

That only applies to relics and mythics. When equipped offhand Empyreans give their +stat bonus. Was tested and proven on BG a while ago. Besides which Twastar is the highest DPS weapon RDM/NIN could equip offhand, so it would be worth upgrading just for that alone.

[Aana]

Relics are going to get another update at 99 while empyreans will most likely just get a bit of extra DMG and +stat like they did at 95.

Sorry, but this is nothing but speculation unless you have secret insider information from SE. As its speculation, it is not a valid basis for argument. As it currently stands, there would be no significant difference between a twash dnc and a Mandau dnc. The weapons are near clones of each other. As a main thf from the day i started nearly 8 years ago, I feel the sting of the dnc vs thf thing, believe me i do and have often voiced distress over dnc stepping on thf's toes. But this is one where i feel otherwise. Twashtar is arguably MORE powerful in the hands of a dnc than mandau anyway. When they gave dnc and thf twash, any balance reason to exclude from mandau was tossed out the window.

But more on topic, I cannot really find any actual reason why 'new' jobs cannot be included. Dnc and sch (lore wise) are even in their prime during the war when the relic weapons were actually used. They are from the SAME geographic place and time. There was no reason to exclude those 2 jobs in the 1st place. Balance wise, lets check for a sec:

Anni: Cor. Not in any way game breaking. Wildfire is already far more powerful in cor hands anyway and shares a related 'low hate' idea (though anni's is more potent in that regard)

Mandau: Dnc. Clone of Twash and dnc doesnt get quite as much str gear as thf anyway. If twash isnt IMBA neither is mandau. Comon, BARD can use this for crying out loud.

Sword: Blu. KotR is weak. Almace debunked 'curved sword' idea. Blu already has an HP-related function with breath attacks. I cant wait to see HP build blus doing breath damage and light damage :P

Spharai: Pup. Far weaker than mythic and Empy in raw power for pups. Counter is a little off beat for pup, but not a deal breaker. Could use an automaton buff of some kind. Heck just give the counter to the puppet for melee frame and its cool.

Claustrum/Mjollnir: Sch. C+ in both weapon classes but lets be honest. Both of these weapons are terrible anyway so i really couldnt care less which one has sch on it. This would only be for completion's sake.

So what are the reasons NOT to have it:

*Balance issues: None of these weapons will break a job from a balance standpoint. The most 'useful' one would be cor on Anni and that is certainly not game breaking in the slightest.

*Lore!: 2 of these jobs are designed during the time and place of the weapons and should be included on that basis alone. Relic armor somehow made it into the other dimension for Cor/pup/blu. Not really holding much water at this point.

*Wrong weapon type (Dnc dagger, longsword blu etc): The subtle weapon class distinctions have been completely undone since 75 removing that argument in its entirety.
-Blu has lots of 'longswords' now. Magian and otherwise.
-Dnc has daggers and even harps out the wazoo (mentioned in previous post).
-Pup is 'generally' excluded from knuckle and cesti weapons, but can still have pup only knuckles (scogan's knuckles), and a number of others from 75 and up (pugulists, simian fists etc). 90+ They even get on every new cesti class h2h. 90+ the only weapons they CANT use are mnk mythic and relic.

Also, ALL those jobs can use the weapons giving the WS which are of the same type as the relic itself which universallly undoes the 'weapon type' idea. They can even get the WS.

TLDR: I have not actually heard any logical reason why the new jobs should be excluded at this point.

[Krashport]

^ Gandiva, Why can't SAM use?




^ Annihilator, Why can't COR use?


^ Mandau, Why can't DNC use?


^ Twashtar, Why can't RDM use?

[Insaniac]

The OPs point is that every job has access to a mythic and emp but not relic. There's no need to do silly things like add RDM to twashtar or SAM to gandiva since they already have access to emps.

If they are worried about the counter effect on PUP they can just make it like the DW on suppanomimi. PUP would only get the "enhances counter" effect if they were /mnk.

I would love to see DNC added to Mandau so I would have a reason to level another job.

[Kristal]

If they are worried about the counter effect on PUP they can just make it like the DW on suppanomimi. PUP would only get the "enhances counter" effect if they were /mnk.

That wouldn't work, because Counter is not job-specific. Dual Wield is an on/off trait, whereas Counter is a +x trait. Most traits, MNK's Counter included, are actually Enhances "<something>" effect bonuses.

It could be changed to "MNK:Enhances "Counter" effect", but the biggest issue wouldn't be Counter but the ungodly base damage on Spharai (+48) compared to any other H2H weapon (Verethragna/Kenkonken +39).

[Insaniac]

That wouldn't work, because Counter is not job-specific. Dual Wield is an on/off trait, whereas Counter is a +x trait. Most traits, MNK's Counter included, are actually Enhances "<something>" effect bonuses.

It could be changed to "MNK:Enhances "Counter" effect", but the biggest issue wouldn't be Counter but the ungodly base damage on Spharai (+48) compared to any other H2H weapon (Verethragna/Kenkonken +39).

I was just using suppa as an example of a piece of gear that enhances an effect without granting that same effect unless you have it via main or sj. There's no reason the enhances counter on Spharai couldn't be coded the same. It would technically be "Latent effect: Enhances counter" where the requirement would be main or sj MNK but in the interest of not messing with the item description just leave it as "Enhances counter". Not that it matters though since SE is arbitrarily refusing to add new jobs to relics.