Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation

[Greatguardian]

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.

Oh, wait. That would be retarded.

I think we're done here.

[Arcon]

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

[Tesahade]

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP.

But in the event that a new h2h job were added then, from Alhanelem stand point, yes.

of course that would leave you with only access to a mythic weapon no relic or empy; as well as, from Alhanelem stand point, you, as a new h2h job, should have no access to preexisting h2h ToM weapons. the job did no exist when the weapons were conceived therefore you having them could destroy the universe. (This is purely for stating a point so don't get hung up on the mentioning of the fictional new h2h job)

[Greatguardian]

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

Oh, okay.

I only have MNK unlocked. I want a 50% refund on the man-hours it took to get my Verethragna.

I understand where you're trying to come from, but I feel like this tripe can go both ways. If it is my responsibility to create a new Ultimate weapon for each job to keep them at a 1:1 ratio, then it should follow that I should get a refund on my efforts when using a 2-job weapon on 1 job. Obviously this is ridiculous, but so is the notion that jobs can't be added to relics because "people need to work more".

In the end, who gives a crap if they increase the functional value of some relics by adding jobs to them? The only one worth half a shit in this context is Mandau, and even then who really cares? Boo hoo, Dancer can do things that Thief can do? Corsair can do things that Ranger can do, too. That line of reasoning is no less petty than the DRK conniption fit that was had when it was announced that Automatons would get Dread Spikes.

Arguing over this bullshit is like arguing over whether or not Koga Tekko should get their nighttime restriction removed. It's a random, convenient buff that doesn't really do anything at all aside from save 1 inventory space. Key word: Convenience. Who gets hurt when Ninjas can wear Koga Tekko during the day? No one. Who gets hurt when BLU can wear Excal? No one. When COR can wear Annihilator? No one. When DNC can wear Mandau? No one. Really. No one. The damn near insignificant difference between Mandau and Twashtar is not going to make or break Thief's role in the game.

SCH doesn't even have the combat skill to wield the most useless, pathetic Relic in the game worth a damn so no one really gives a shit if they get Claustrum either.

[Atomic_Skull]

The damn near insignificant difference between Mandau and Twashtar is not going to make or break Thief's role in the game.

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

[Zagen]

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

I'm assuming you're implying Twilight saga/series is supposed to be horror, if you are then you're the first person I've ever seen make that connection. If you aren't implying that then why single out horror film lovers?

[cidbahamut]

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

That's a terrible analogy and the complaint you outline is one of job design, not one of gear availability. Get over it and focus your vindictiveness more constructively.

[Greatguardian]

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

Oh. So bringing Dancer up from broken, useless pile of crap to respectable DD is bad because it shares traits that already work well on the other dagger-wielding job? That's astounding.

There's a whole can of worms one could open by saying "Don't fix what ain't broke", because we both know that Thief could be in a better place right now, but I don't see anything wrong with SE fixing the most terrible, languishing jobs first. Puppetmaster is in the middle of a huge AI/automaton overhaul, too. Corsair received a massive XI Roll buff, and Miser's/Tacticians/Wildfire gave it a legitimate reason to exist next to Bard. Blue mage received HNM spells, and Scholar is being reworked.

Sure, the bottom of the pyramid may be closer to the top now, but that's only because they've been overhauled while the top of the pyramid hasn't. I have little doubt that Thief will receive the love it needs. Its need simply isn't as great as the famously defunct jobs that the Devs are working with right now.

Inb4 Mellowy and/or no one cares about Summoner people.

[Suirieko]

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

It shouldn't even be a problem to begin with, there shouldn't even be a line to begin with. To Date. Dancer and Scholar, for the most part, can't even touch most of the major gears because they are the latest two jobs. SE, originally said that "they're planning for good gears for Dancers and Scholars." There was hardly anything outside of AF, Relic set, and Empyrean armor set (and for the most part, are still good stuff, I won't deny this). Only Abyssea gears did this actually change significantly. IE: Gears like movement speed for DNC and Loki's body, etc.

They can't equip any of the Abjuration set. They can't equip any of the salvage set. They can't equip any of the homam/nashira set. It's not a huge deal now because most of the said gears have already been replaced for the most part, but then what happens when those set gets upgraded, and they're actually useful. Oops. Dancer and Scholar gets screwed again.

There's nothing unfair about them getting those set just because those jobs came out after the said gear sets were released. This is the same with relic. They should've been added to relics long time ago, if you ask me, and they need to fix this.

There are no "freebies" or "free hand outs" or anything unfair, just because some joe blow has mandau for his THF and dinged into Dancer and can use Mandau. I still fail to see how this is unfair. He already worked hard for the weapon, why should he have to work more just so he can use it on Dancer? This is the same for all five of the new jobs.

The argument is: All 20 jobs have access to Mythics, all 20 jobs have access to Empyrean. Why can't all 20 jobs have access to relics. (without making new relic weapons just because those 5 jobs are "too new" for relics.)

Only one person complained about DNC getting Mandau, once, and it was over ten pages ago. No one else and not even that person has argued about "DNC vs. THF". Your statement is completely unjustified. There was no "DNC vs THF" arguing in here (especially not in the quoted post), but this statement, ironically, spawned it all. Now I feel like I should comment too, just to make some things clear. Please note that despite my stance on this issue, I do feel strongly that DNC should be added to Mandau, just like I believe all new jobs should be added to their respective main weapons.

Well this isn't the first thread and whenever this thread gets around, there's always an argument that Dancers have "stolen enough" from THF, and that DNC having Mandau would somehow "kill THF". All in all it's really a stupid argument, considering that THF and DNC are still a different beast with or without Mandau.

Unless I'm confusing it with something else, I think Assassin was actually added after the level cap was raised to 75. I think it came before Tier 2 merits though, so it does depend how much you care about Assassin's Charge.

Pretty sure Assassin came out in 2005, and made Trick attack as strong as Sneak Attack. To be honest, for the long time, I was content with how THF was and felt that there wasn't any necessary changes. Accomplice and Collaboration makes it even easier to manage hate, and allows mages to have better chance to survive due to hate generation.

Also, let's not forget that SE did boosted the higher end dagger base damage in the past. (I think it was 2006 when the did this?)

The only thing that did bug me was the fact that they were giving Treasure Hunters abilities to other classes, but it's really kind of moot because even with the diminishing return, people will always go to THF for stronger TH boost as opposed to RNG, or subjob with /THF.

As I said before, there was no THF vs. DNC arguing initially, people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there. Now everyone is talking against no one. There is literally no issue here. Just let it drop and go back on topic.

Correct. It's not an issue because A) People having Mandau will always be in a minority, because it is a difficult weapon to get. B) IT shouldn't even matter because THF and DNC are both primary dagger users, and therefore, should have no problem with using Mandau. Hell it makes more sense to me for THF and DNC to use Mandau than BRD and RDM.