Hvergelmir WTF SE

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Nirvana was made for the melee SMN in mind, not Hvergelmir. Hvergelmir is a toy

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I disagree. Hvergelmir is not a toy. Both staves are useful for melee Summoner, although they have vastly different play styles. Something every super staff has had that is useful for Summoner is MP regeneration or preservation. To dismiss it is kinda crappy.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

you'll need to use spirit taker

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Spirit Taker = lost aftermath

Without aftermath, Nirvana is a big old bowl of soggy fail flakes.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I disagree. Hvergelmir is not a toy. Both staves are useful for melee Summoner, although they have vastly different play styles. Something every super staff has had that is useful for Summoner is MP regeneration or preservation. To dismiss it is kinda crappy.

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Hvergelmir only gives the player any additional buff. Sure, you can recover a lot of MP quickly if you manage to save 300% TP, but in the age where MP isn't an issue, even outside of Abyssea, MP recovery isn't all that great.

Nirvana not only gives the player an additional buff, it also requires less accuracy gear to actually hit anything outside of Abyssea, gives a huge boost of damage both inside and outside of Abyssea, and the aftermath affects both player and avatar. The only downside of Nirvana is that the WS of choice doesn't do much damage. But it still does more damage than Myrkr. And you don't have to save up to 300% TP to get the full effect of the aftermath.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

– [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.]

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I doubt you even blacklisted me anyway. Otherwise, you wouldn't even acknowledge my existence. Which it seems like you do every chance you get.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Hvergelmir only gives the player any additional buff.

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Naturally, Nirvana should be better, considering the effort, but ultimately, it doesn't make Hvergelmir a toy, or worthless, just like Hvergelmir doesn't make Nirvana worthless.

is this seriously turning into hvergelmir vs nirvana?

nirvana shits all over hvergelmir in every way

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Naturally, Nirvana should be better, considering the effort, but ultimately, it doesn't make Hvergelmir a toy, or worthless, just like Hvergelmir doesn't make Nirvana worthless.

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Give me one good situation where whacking a mob as a melee SMN is a good idea. Where it is more preferable to bring a melee SMN than any other melee.

Trash mobs don't count because that isn't a good situation. Anyone can melee on level 50 mobs.

i just got mine i hit the shit out of everything NM or low lvl rabbit idc.
its alot bettter that sitting there waiting for the BP timer to go down

also with the +2 gloves i cap on perp cost no matter what staff i use.
so why not have a little fun and smack the shit out of IC or some other outside abyssea NM.

but there is a time and place for everything i'm not about to run in and start swinging on a raja/rani or one of the 3 wyrm...well i might swing at one of the wyrm.
and same with outside abyssea i'm not about to melee on a king behe

i'll still melee sky NM tho its always fun.

as for a nirvana id sell your pet dog to a resturant if it ment i could get my hands on it.
i mean ive only seen one nirvana ever.

i will say it would be hot to have a regain or let pets get aftermath on it tho
aftermath to pets would be cool on the other pet jobs also

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

However, I strongly, strongly disagree with your stance of empy being "nothing more than a toy." The one thing nirvana doesn't do is give you unlimited MP, since it's really unlikely that you even need the full amount of perp cost that nirvana gives. Yes, nirvana will give you a better damage output overall, that's for sure. But, you can't Garland every WS because you'll need to use spirit taker, and that means not getting the aftermath all the time; and garland is pretty weak, weaker than Cataclysm even, though the def. down does give it an edge.

In the places where I most use the staff (e.g. abyssea soloing), accuracy is not an issue.

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You don't need Hvergelmir for unlimited MP, just like you don't need Nirvana to cap -perp. Without either of these I have unlimited MP with just my prep/refresh set, Siphon and /SCH, and I've only run out of MP once since 80cap. That being said were I to be in possession of a Nirvana I could Garland every WS and still be fine for MP(as I am now). Getting -7 perp on a single piece wouldn't be nessecary for capping -perp, but it would be beneficial for capping it in the least amount of slots, for instance with my current set I get +3 MP back per tick, if I got Nirvana I could ditch my Caller's Pigaches +2 from my -perp set and full time the serpentes set giving me another +1MP per tick(not really needed, but sure would be nice).

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but it would be beneficial for capping it in the least amount of slots

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The thing is, you don't need to reduce the number of slots with perp. Perp minus (and/or refresh) exists on a lot of gear you would still have a use for anyway even if it didn't have the perp -.

Also, I don't normally use /sch for various reasons, including need of an ability to have status cures, switching back and forth to use aspir is a hassle and I don't really need it anyway, /SCH doesn't have cure IV and cure III is just totally inadequate these days.

Though one thing I hope people get out of this discussion is how little we need healing MP kits anymore :p

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Though one thing I hope people get out of this discussion is how little we need healing MP kits anymore :p

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Most people already know that. Only Dallas thinks otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

is this seriously turning into hvergelmir vs nirvana?

nirvana shits all over hvergelmir in every way

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Yeah, it's crap all right. That feces in your hand is "-perp" which is exactly what incompetent non-SMN think you need a whole lot of. Keep trying to make your Ukon WAR relevant here, you aren't good enough to call yourself an incompetent SMN yet.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Most people already know that. Only Dallas thinks otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

Yeah, it's crap all right. That feces in your hand is "-perp" which is exactly what incompetent non-SMN think you need a whole lot of. Keep trying to make your Ukon WAR relevant here, you aren't good enough to call yourself an incompetent SMN yet.

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Called it!!

Only because Kimara complained, so here goes.

Nirvana is a toy, Hvergelmir is a toy. I'll pose the same question I'd pose to any mage that wants to melee things.

In what end game content at 75cap or now at 90cap+ are you actually able to melee the HNM your group is targeting? News at 10: This isn't new information.

Without your aftermath, which can't be maintained in ANY group setting where Nirvana would actually be useful WITH your aftermath the Nirvana barely outperforms a Soulscourge and that's coming from TierII BP's with 1/5 merits vs 5/5. If it doesn't benefit SMN on the hardest of mobs or the gains are moderate at best, then it's really not an argument worth having.

I don't even need to mention Hvergelmir. These are solo toys that you do because you like the job at this point, nothing more. Which is better? Nirvana. Does anyone really care? Not really.

Sadly there's someone I dislike more than Analhelm and Korpg combined in this thread

<3333 Thank you Rearden

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Originally Posted by Rearden

Only because Kimara complained, so here goes.

Nirvana is a toy, Hvergelmir is a toy. I'll pose the same question I'd pose to any mage that wants to melee things.

In what end game content at 75cap or now at 90cap+ are you actually able to melee the HNM your group is targeting? News at 10: This isn't new information.

Without your aftermath, which can't be maintained in ANY group setting where Nirvana would actually be useful WITH your aftermath the Nirvana barely outperforms a Soulscourge and that's coming from TierII BP's with 1/5 merits vs 5/5. If it doesn't benefit SMN on the hardest of mobs or the gains are moderate at best, then it's really not an argument worth having.

I don't even need to mention Hvergelmir. These are solo toys that you do because you like the job at this point, nothing more. Which is better? Nirvana. Does anyone really care? Not really.

Sadly there's someone I dislike more than Analhelm and Korpg combined in this thread

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Only part about this whole post is, you are assuming that a person who wields a Nirvana has to melee.

Sorry to disappoint, but with Nirvana, you don't even have to melee, that is what makes that staff so great. Only way to actually use a Hvergelmir is to whack stuff with it, otherwise it is useless and a waste of an inventory spot.

Nirvana, you don't even need to whack anything for it to outperform any and all other staves for SMN, it is just that good.

Where are your sources for this?

Nirvana is a 23 MAB bonus over and INT path Pet MAB staff.

With 5 Pet MAB merits and MAB VI, Pets have 50 MAB base. Easy stuff (E. Pendant, AF3 waist, T. Cape) is another 5 MAB, for 55 base and 67 with the Pet: MAB avatar weapon.

1.9/1.67 = +14% damage on Magical BPs for using Nirvana over the Pet: MAB Magian staff.

So yeah, Nirvana really isn't game breaking. It gets worse the better your augmented Pet: Stat gear is.


Edit: Don't get me wrong, it's the best "pet enhancing" piece of gear by a mile (well, it's barely better than AF3+2 body and only works for half the BPs), but it's just not more amazing than, for instance, 2 Affinity.

My source is math, parses, and experience.

And Byrth posting it for me

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Originally Posted by Rearden

My source is math, parses, and experience.

And Byrth posting it for me

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You are showing sources for an opinion.....you know that, right?

Honestly, the fact that Summoners slobber over Nirvana is just a tribute to the atrocious state of FFXI's pet enhancing gear in general.

I dont think Math has an Opinion.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Only part about this whole post is, you are assuming that a person who wields a Nirvana has to melee.

Sorry to disappoint, but with Nirvana, you don't even have to melee, that is what makes that staff so great. Only way to actually use a Hvergelmir is to whack stuff with it, otherwise it is useless and a waste of an inventory spot.

Nirvana, you don't even need to whack anything for it to outperform any and all other staves for SMN, it is just that good.

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Seems like an opinion to me.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Nirvana is a 23 MAB bonus over and INT path Pet MAB staff.

With 5 Pet MAB merits and MAB VI, Pets have 50 MAB base. Easy stuff (E. Pendant, AF3 waist, T. Cape) is another 5 MAB, for 55 base and 67 with the Pet: MAB avatar weapon.

1.9/1.67 = +14% damage on Magical BPs for using Nirvana over the Pet: MAB Magian staff.

So yeah, Nirvana really isn't game breaking. It gets worse the better your augmented Pet: Stat gear is.


Edit: Don't get me wrong, it's the best "pet enhancing" piece of gear by a mile (well, it's barely better than AF3+2 body and only works for half the BPs), but it's just not more amazing than, for instance, 2 Affinity.

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^ Looks more like math plus some commentary than an "Unsourced Opinion".

Hver aftermath can be maintained, Nirvana cannot. Nirvana loses, no matter how loud BG screams

Poor child, you seem stressed.

I mean, I don't think Korpg is wrong that it's better than Hverg or Claustrum. I also think that BLMs would be equally sploogy over Laev if Affinity staves didn't exist.

The problem is that Nirvana, which is (in my opinion) far and away more useful than Hverg or Claustrum, costs 300mil/months of effort and is a <14% damage increase for a mediocre Summoner, probably closer to a ~12% increase for a perfect summoner. When I look at Ryunohige, I feel bad about wasting 30k Alexandrite in a Terpsichore. When I look at Nirvana, I don't get the same feeling. It's like, "Great, your magical BPs do 14% more damage, which will be useful in the situations where magical BPs are better than physical and you happen to be on Summoner."

In my opinion, the real reason to get Nirvana isn't for the 14% damage boost to magic BPs. The real reason is because people will be so freaking in awe of your mythic's shininess that they'll never question "who is coming summoner?" again. Be thankful that most people can't figure out how minor of an upgrade it is.

As much as lollas has ripped on "BP and Release" summoner, realistically the only situations that call for summoner also call for BP and release. In a "BP and Release" situation, Nirvana is the best Magic BP weapon and the best (temporary) Perp staff. Hverg and Claustrum do nothing in those situations, and if MP is really that much of an issue for you guys in Voidwatch that you need to be dropping Dusty Wings and using Myrkr, you should really re-evaluate the way you spend MP. I just did the entire Sandy path with an alliance dualboxing the two black mages with temp items, and I didn't even Refresh myself or Convert more than half a dozen times the whole night. If I can spam proc spells as fast as possible and not run out of MP, I'd hope you can BP twice every 45 seconds without running out of MP (assuming you can find enough Wards that are actually worth using).

Hverg is an awesome tool for soloing DC mobs with your pet. It's a shitty tool for anything anyone else would want Summoner for. I can't really knock people for making one, as I seriously considered Aymur when I reactivated a year ago and got stricken with BST-fever. They're useful in approximately the same situations as each other, though Aymur does have a few extra bonuses.



Re: Lollas
Why do you think that Hverg aftermath can be maintained but Nirvana's can't? Assuming you make moderately efficient Perp -> Refresh trades, which are plentiful these days, couldn't you expect to gain several MP/tick from TPing in the staff? Then 60% OAT helps you build TP, so you can use Spirit Taker a few times between 300TP Garlands.

I'm confused. Why in the world can't Nirvana Aftermath be maintained?

-Build TP to 300
-Get the only good aftermath
-Spam your real WS until it's time to build 300TP again
-Get 300 TP as Aftermath lv3 Wears, WS and get your aftermath back
-Go back to spamming whatever WS you want

Problem, broseph?

GG its obvious you are confused. Let me break it down.

For SMN, MP> everything else. There are two ways to get it. Refresh above and beyond perp, or through melee WS.

For Hver, the WS triggers aftermath.

For Nirvana, it does not.

Nirvana, poorly made, depends on Spirit Taker which can miss, or it depends on wasting every other slot and subjob and atma maintaining mp. Take your flavor of fail: 0 haste, 0 aftermath, or 0 avatar. Also, start playing SMN so you know what mp recovery means.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

For Nirvana, it does not.

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I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong in this case. Aftermath procs on Garland of Bliss, or do you mean that aftermath doesn't proc on Myrkr on Nirvana?

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Nirvana, poorly made, depends on Spirit Taker which can miss, or it depends on wasting every other slot and subjob and atma maintaining mp. Take your flavor of fail: 0 haste, 0 aftermath, or 0 avatar. Also, start playing SMN so you know what mp recovery means.

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Wait, you depend on atma as a melee than any other SMN. You have to have 3 regain atmas on, including the infamous slow+15% one, just to keep your MP up.

While every other SMN just needs Minkin, and that's it. 1 Refresh Atma > 3 Regain Atmas because you can put the other 2 Atmas to more damage capabilities. And outside Abyssea? Nirvana shines even better because you can have +7 mp per tick refresh with your avatar out, instead of having your avatars cost you 13 mp per tick just so you can have enough attack speed to wiff/whack a mob to get your 300% TP.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

GG its obvious you are confused. Let me break it down.

For SMN, MP> everything else. There are two ways to get it. Refresh above and beyond perp, or through melee WS.

For Hver, the WS triggers aftermath.

For Nirvana, it does not.

Nirvana, poorly made, depends on Spirit Taker which can miss, or it depends on wasting every other slot and subjob and atma maintaining mp. Take your flavor of fail: 0 haste, 0 aftermath, or 0 avatar. Also, start playing SMN so you know what mp recovery means.

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You don't understand anything about Mythic weapons.

You can use Spirit Taker multiple times between Garlands without ever sacrificing a second of your Aftermath on Mythics.

The more you know.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You don't understand anything about Mythic weapons.

You can use Spirit Taker multiple times between Garlands without ever sacrificing a second of your Aftermath on Mythics.

The more you know.

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I think he means that Myrkr doesn't work on a Nirvana though, since that is his defense in whacking on a mob and feeding it TP.

How would you even use Myrkr with Nirvana?

I would thank all the people who took the exhaustive time to reply to my thread, as expected the melee summoners showed out in force, I see next to no responses from backline players the scholars and blm's of ffxi of which I am part of their number.

Let me make my position known Relic weapons are worthless except to gilsellers and Epeen worshippers I pity you, Mythics are the same and SE's refusal to fix the requirements for them is infantile. Any attempt to make money off someone building a weapon is disgusting and you should be caned and boiled alive.

As for my staff, it's in storage, I'll slowly build it as a showpiece nothing more just to piss the melee summoners off because I like the taste of your tears. I've switched to a Masamune, it took me 3 days to get through the lottery pops and 1 day for the vnm stage. Thank you.

I find it amusing that for all the hemming and hawing I saw from summoners not a single career summoner I know or have ever met would ever seriously consider using the staff, but I know plenty of blm's and sch's who dearly wish they could make use of it. Way to go SE!

This post edited because I don't feel like being hunted down and burned.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

How would you even use Myrkr with Nirvana?

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That is the whole point. Dallas only thinks that one weaponskill for staff exists, because that is all he talks about. If you can't use Myrkr, there is no point in having the staff.

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Originally Posted by Soulrunner

I would thank all the people who took the exhaustive time to reply to my thread, as expected the worthless solo summoners dominated the discussion bragging about their pointless staff weaponskills, and micro achievements wearing cloth. I see next to no responses from backline players the scholars and blm's of ffxi of which I am part of their number. Let me make my position known Relic weapons are worthless except to gilsellers and Epeen worshippers I pity you, Mythics are the same and SE's refusal to fix the requirements for them is infantile. Any attempt to make money off someone building a weapon is disgusting and you should be caned and boiled alive. As for my weapon it's in storage, I'll slowly build it as a showpiece nothing more just to piss the melee summoners off because I like the taste of your tears. I've switched to a Masamune, it took me 3 days to get through the lottery pops and 1 day for the vnm stage. Thank you.

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So much winning.

Poor OP, thinks he's "Ukon war" cool now.

-edit- uhm, nevermind. :cool:

Question though: Why should "melee summoners" (as you put it) be Q.Qing over you building some weapon and not using it? I don't give a rat's behind what weapon you build. If you want to waste your time on something you're not going to use... ummmm, okay?

I might be missing some sort of meme or punchline here as I have a tenancy not to grasp them, buuuut....

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You don't understand anything about Mythic weapons.

You can use Spirit Taker multiple times between Garlands without ever sacrificing a second of your Aftermath on Mythics.

The more you know.

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You are the BG calculator zealot, put up or shut up. 900 mp every 3 minutes, never resummoning. Since you have NO margin for error, I fully expect you to assume no lost time to finding a second mob. It's OK, if you knew melee SMN at all, you'd remember who taught you.

I don't understand what in the world you're saying.

Are you seriously intimating that a Nirvana SMN can't regain 900MP over 3 minutes through Spirit Taker? Is that what you want me to prove?