FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

They should have just called the new /ja "Reprisal II" instead.

I'd say I was disappointed, but I would have had to have my hopes up to begin with.

Oh well.... Wasn't easy since they buffed melees.

so disappointed


scroll of Holy. PLD lv55 WHM lv50

will pld get Holy II at lv99? or never lol

Interesting.
Will wait to see how long the Job ability lasts and how much added block rate % it provides.
Unless its as good as Hasso/Seigan/Yonnin/Innin, then its just going to be another useless line of my JA list like sepluncher and Divine Emblem.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

But the point is why does what war gets affect pld at all? If se wants pld to have balls-to-the-wall defense and crappy offense and they want war to have balls-to-the-wall offense and some moderate defense then that's just how it is.
SE values defensive capability as more useful than offensive capability, and therefore considers a very defensive job having offensive capability to be overpowered, while the reverse case not overpowered.

Perhaps even SE wants some jobs to be better than others? Maybe they don't give 2 shits about balancing the love and attention they give to pld and war. The SE gods dribbled their joy juice on war, if you don't like that pld isn't getting any joy juice go play war instead.

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Because Defense is the only weapon Paladin has, and its about as appealing on its own as a root canal. If you enhance Warrior's defense, even at the cost of (some of) its offense, you've now reduced the demand for Paladin even further. Why take a Paladin if you can get similar survivability out of Warrior and far more potential offense? It's the exact situation we're in right now.

Can you honestly not see how this is a double standard? Doing anything to one job impacts every other job by virtue of competition. Enhancing the tanking ability of Warrior makes every other tank less attractive, and your proposed solution of "go play Warrior" is an obnoxiously ignorant statement.

The goal is (or should be...) to make every every job desirable. Even considering a buff to Warrior's defensive capability after flat out refusing to even consider any buff relating to Paladin's offense flies completely in the face of that goal.

As I said; Warrior and Paladin are polar opposites. If something is being investigated for one of them, the inverse should be applicable to the other.

Edit: It's not Reprisal II, because Reprisal reflects damage, and Paladin will get Holy II at 99.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

Why take a Paladin if you can get similar survivability out of Warrior and far more potential offense? It's the exact situation we're in right now.

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You're joking right

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

Edit: It's not Reprisal II, because Reprisal reflects damage, and Paladin will get Holy II at 99.

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Reprisal increases block rate in addition to the spike damage....

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

You're joking right

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If they gave WAR more defensive abilities as he said it would bleed into PLD territory even further making PLD even less desirable.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

If they gave WAR more defensive abilities as he said it would bleed into PLD territory even further making PLD even less desirable.

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Incorrect. They would have to do far more than as camate put it "some sort of attack/defense trade-off" to make war come close to pld's defensive capability.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Incorrect. They would have to do far more than as camate put it "some sort of attack/defense trade-off" to make war come close to pld's defensive capability.

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Outside of T4 Voidwatch WAR is already far ahead of PLD as a tank option... I understand the concept of the hardest content requiring a PLD at least until people figure out how to use a DD tank but T4 Voidwatch are going to become slightly easier with the cap raise, and more so once 99 is available which will help groups finding ways to use a DD tank effectively over PLD.

Giving WAR anything "Defensive" pushes it closer to PLD on harder stuff. And please don't think it will be ATK > DEF that's called Defender.... Highly doubt they'd do Defender 2.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Outside of T4 Voidwatch WAR is already far ahead of PLD as a tank option... I understand the concept of the hardest content requiring a PLD at least until people figure out how to use a DD tank but T4 Voidwatch are going to become slightly easier with the cap raise, and more so once 99 is available which will help groups finding ways to use a DD tank effectively over PLD.

Giving WAR anything "Defensive" pushes it closer to PLD on harder stuff. And please don't think it will be ATK > DEF that's called Defender.... Highly doubt they'd do Defender 2.

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Oh yeah I forgot that post where Camate said T4 voidwatch was going to be the last endgame content at 99.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Oh yeah I forgot that post where Camate said T4 voidwatch was going to be the last endgame content at 99.

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At 75 the "last" endgame with the exception of AV/PW was tanked by DDs so your point? And those now are Perfect Defense Zerged by DD?

The point was right now PLD has 1 use that it excels at and that's T4 Voidwatch which soon will more than likely change reducing PLD to 1 use of w/e the hardest "endgame" is until the next level cap. And once we hit 99 it will remain great at the hardest things until groups find ways to use a DD tank over PLD because if the job can do more damage and still tank it is a better tank than PLD and pushes PLD out.

Like I said PLD is great for new hard content until people figure out how to game it to use a DD tank and then it becomes as useless as it is now.

Is it just me, or would I take any sort of more than half hearted buff atm?
I just don't get why Reprisal can't be a full time spell, but Retribution is a full time ability, and far more useful/devastating. Maybe make Reprisal add Shield Mastery +5? Palisade... eh.. we'll see.
I find it offensive that we received no spells either.
I'd take some stupid ideas that enhance our magic at this point. 15s JA that allows you to convert TP into a Cure Potency effect. Half cost or double potency cures when the target is not yourself. Maybe an enmity gain JT that enhances PLD cures and reduces enmity of the target of your cures.
I dunno.
Just hate how many jobs are pretty much overpowering, and SE "doesn't want to disturb game balance" by adjusting PLD.

Had such a rant to post, but realized it's not going to make a difference. These devs are absurd. Instead, I'm going to go outside and get some sun on my pale pale nerd skin.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

At 75 the "last" endgame with the exception of AV/PW was tanked by DDs so your point? And those now are Perfect Defense Zerged by DD?

The point was right now PLD has 1 use that it excels at and that's T4 Voidwatch which soon will more than likely change reducing PLD to 1 use of w/e the hardest "endgame" is until the next level cap. And once we hit 99 it will remain great at the hardest things until groups find ways to use a DD tank over PLD because if the job can do more damage and still tank it is a better tank than PLD and pushes PLD out.

Like I said PLD is great for new hard content until people figure out how to game it to use a DD tank and then it becomes as useless as it is now.

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Well you'll probably get a year out of pld at least before it needs any fixing probably?

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Well you'll probably get a year out of pld at least before it needs any fixing probably?

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And I'm supposed to be happy with that as a player who likes the PLD job? Are you happy with that concept?

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SE you're scared about over powering PLD because it will potentially make it the "best" tank and what's so wrong about that? For years PLDs have learned to hold back or rush to hate cap as needed when co-tanking. Make PLD superior and nothing changes, when a PLD isn't available for most content other jobs can fill in. If PLD is the only tank/co-tank option for 1-2 events who gives a crap it takes a month if you're slower to get PLD up to speed level/gear/skills wise if a group doesn't have a PLD.

Do something about this, sitting back and doing nothing out of fear is not a "fix".

I agree that PLD gets put on the sidelines way too often once people figure out how to DD tank stuff. And its probably going to happen to Voidwatch too just like everything else. I don't think too many jobs get into this kind of situation except for those that don't seem like popular choices most of the time.

Also, the way S-E treats PLD compared to other jobs seems a bit off as well. With many other jobs, it seems to be easy for them to add power to already powerful jobs and its always PLD they seem to have to "balance". Its not like we need overpowering moves that take away any party dynamics. Maybe just stuff that will allow us to not be completely dependent on other jobs to fill our role and not be completely overshadowed by other jobs most of the time in that role.

On another not, I'm still not sure why native Fencer would be game-breaking on a PLD at all, especially since the job with the most tiers of it (WAR) has no real use for it right now. It does add a bit of damage but even if PLDs had the same tier as WAR natively, it would probably only bring the balance between PLD and DD closer together rather than break anything.

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Originally Posted by Orlind

On another not, I'm still not sure why native Fencer would be game-breaking on a PLD at all, especially since the job with the most tiers of it (WAR) has no real use for it right now. It does add a bit of damage but even if PLDs had the same tier as WAR natively, it would probably only bring the balance between PLD and DD closer together rather than break anything.

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Not saying this is a good reason but the only one I've come with and that is SE still believes PLD/WAR is the way to go... and giving PLD Fencer means no reason to /WAR, not that I'm saying that's reason enough to /WAR without an Ochain.

I like to categorize jobs into 4 tiers

1.Necessary - example WHM, THF
2.Helpful - COR, BRD, RDM, DNC Another couple of DD's (WAR/MNK/NIN)
3.Leech/"I will tolerate them because they're friends with the WHM" - PUP, DRG, BST, SMN, DNC.
4.and PLD.

hi,this is my first time posting to forums,ok first thing i have from rrelease wanted to be pld played my ass of to get the job and i loved it,after ToaU came out i was so excited for new things to do went to WG and got started,i soon found out i could not do any floor runs, reason? I WAS PLD from that time forward i was left out of all content up to this day,and SE will not do anything to get us back on track, why is this we will be over powered? no pld at this time takes so long to kill just an EP mob and whm can kill faster with no dmg done to it where pld is healing useing JA's the whole bit for one lil mob just how is the broken, PLD needs more raw power not def not shield blocks not one time blocks to party members we just want to beable to do what all others have been able to for along time now. the DEV's need to wake up pld has been shut out of all content but we are the broke class and from what i see we will remane there for alot longer

Hi again oh and dont tell me to play another job because i have sam nin war blu mnk bst pld all 90 all other close or at sub lvl so ya i have played other jobs pld however is my first and always will be my main.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

SE still believes PLD/WAR is the way to go...

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Paraphrasing what I said earlier, if all the defense traits/abilities they're piling onto PLD actually mattered in the grand scheme of things, WAR/PLD would be as useful/popular as PLD/WAR.

pld as a sub does not work maybe with a few jobs but not war/pld i know i have tryed.

That was sorta the point;p

I just don't get what SE is so afraid of, look at WAR, WHM, BLM. They're legitimately overpowered atm, and I do not mind. I don't want to nerf those jobs, I just want SE to throw some bones PLDs way. BLM gets a 5 minute -60% pdt (with shoes) on a 10 minute timer that sucks down your MP. What would be so bad about giving sentinel this for of timer? make it more than 1/4 or 1/8 of the time ability that you have to save for the eventual hate resets that mobs use.

Shoot, if you're afraid of making PLD a great tank, because then DDs would go hog wild... give PLD some form of support function... like Auras that when the PLDs engaged, party members within like 8 yalms get Regen IV, or reduced damage taken, or a redirection of like 10% damage onto the PLD.
Give us something neat rather than adjustments to 5 minute abilities with short durations...

Immunity to hate resets, or reduced effect or make Fealty go down to a 3 minute timer. Give us something that makes us the bricks that can take hits and keep trucking.

I really feel the dude who talked about WHM soloing faster/safer than PLD. That's just sad.

I don't understand why you are thinking pld is what needs adjusting. Pld is a great tank, it just isn't needed. Ask for harder content, not pld adjustments.

It's because we want to be generally useful, not just on "hard content." There's more to the game than just "hard content," and "hard" isn't hard forever.

Not "only if the party make-up is perfect," not "only if we actually need a tank," not "only if you already have the best possible gear in the game," but generally.

It's hard to have too many support jobs or damage-dealers. But PLD can only tank, and tanks are something you only need zero or one of (and it's "zero" more often than it's "one").

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Originally Posted by fernando

hi,this is my first time posting to forums,ok first thing i have from rrelease wanted to be pld played my ass of to get the job and i loved it,after ToaU came out i was so excited for new things to do went to WG and got started,i soon found out i could not do any floor runs, reason? I WAS PLD from that time forward i was left out of all content up to this day,and SE will not do anything to get us back on track, why is this we will be over powered? no pld at this time takes so long to kill just an EP mob and whm can kill faster with no dmg done to it where pld is healing useing JA's the whole bit for one lil mob just how is the broken, PLD needs more raw power not def not shield blocks not one time blocks to party members we just want to beable to do what all others have been able to for along time now. the DEV's need to wake up pld has been shut out of all content but we are the broke class and from what i see we will remane there for alot longer

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Your broken english aside, I see what you're saying.
However Paladin is not "Knight".

If you want to play a class that dishes out dmg, you have a lot of options. PLD was never meant to compete in that area of physicality. It is supposed to be on the front lines as a Hybrid holy Knight/healer that sustains a lot of dmg and makes sacrifices in exchange for increased survivability of the party/alliance/team mates. Its not the white version of dark knight, its not the mid-evil version of samurai, and it sure as hell isn't supposed to smash things.
Dress your war up in heavy outdated armor if that's the kind of thing you want PLD to be.

A lot of other PLDs are not happy with where the job is today, but anyone who any clue about the job is not asking for increased dmg output. With a good weapon and the right atmas, it is already a decent enough DD to get the job done.Its not in the top 5, but it doesn't suck when geared/atma'd right.

the problem is that there are at least 5 other jobs that will perform much better in the dmg output department. So why choose a PLD when MMO's are all about efficiency and optimization? *Its why we pay 10,000,000 gil for 2 more str on the ear slot*

Also, if PLD gains even a 5% increase in dmg output, that's enough to truly break the current fragile balance of the game.
As SE said, increasing PLD's dmg output would just make it a one man army. Something it already can be, under the right circumstances and with an Ochain/aegis/almace.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

It's because we want to be generally useful, not just on "hard content." There's more to the game than just "hard content," and "hard" isn't hard forever.

Not "only if the party make-up is perfect," not "only if we actually need a tank," not "only if you already have the best possible gear in the game," but generally.

It's hard to have too many support jobs or damage-dealers. But PLD can only tank, and tanks are something you only need zero or one of (and it's "zero" more often than it's "one").

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I'm sure PUP, SMN, Mythic-less DRGs would argue that regardless of content difficulty, they just want to be needed sometimes outside soloing, a Perfect defense/angon zerg.

Apples and oranges. A lot of the problem of pet jobs is that they're a little too versatile, to the point where people aren't sure where to put them. PLD has exactly the opposite problem: they have one role for which there is no use.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Apples and oranges. A lot of the problem of pet jobs is that they're a little too versatile, to the point where people aren't sure where to put them. PLD has exactly the opposite problem: they have one role for which there is no use.

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Not me. I know where to put pet jobs; receiving end of my boot.
Nothing more annoying than seeing a damn sheep, wyvren or automan's ass on my screen. And they cock block the shit out of you when you're trying to move around and shit.

Shush, the grown-ups are talking.

Th

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

It's because we want to be generally useful, not just on "hard content." There's more to the game than just "hard content," and "hard" isn't hard forever.

Not "only if the party make-up is perfect," not "only if we actually need a tank," not "only if you already have the best possible gear in the game," but generally.

It's hard to have too many support jobs or damage-dealers. But PLD can only tank, and tanks are something you only need zero or one of (and it's "zero" more often than it's "one").

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Then the majority of the game content needs the difficulty increased to where DD cannot tank it.

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

Then the majority of the game content needs the difficulty increased to where DD cannot tank it.

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That ain't happening. That would require rewriting the entire game from the ground up. It will be cheaper and easier to just write a whole new game.

It could have been possible to write all of the new content for new levels to need a tank, but that hasn't happened yet and probably won't be at this point.

So what PLD really needs is a new role to fill.

Besides, even if all the content was tailored to need a PLD, that would hardly be fair to the 19 other jobs. I want to see PLD be useful, not indispensable.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

That ain't happening. That would require rewriting the entire game from the ground up. It will be cheaper and easier to just write a whole new game.

It could have been possible to write all of the new content for new levels to need a tank, but that hasn't happened yet and probably won't be at this point.

So what PLD really needs is a new role to fill.

Besides, even if all the content was tailored to need a PLD, that would hardly be fair to the 19 other jobs. I want to see PLD be useful, not indispensable.

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A healing talent tree then

Can we increase atonement dmg cap when u level up past 75? for example at 90 its gona be 1200-1500dmg
just an idea

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Besides, even if all the content was tailored to need a PLD, that would hardly be fair to the 19 other jobs. I want to see PLD be useful, not indispensable.

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WHM says hello...

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

A healing talent tree then

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To edit my earlier post, or just level whm? What is the problem with just playing a different job if pld isn't needed. It's still your character

I think even WAR gets Shield Mastery.. The only thing WAR don't have is the magic spells that PLD have native to them. PLD magic is becoming boarder-line obsolete in terms of healing and offensive.

I find ways to forcefully Cure IV myself to gain enmity by switching in and out HP+ gears. I shouldn't have to be doing this.. Its like saying "Hey guys I'm going to hurt myself, so I can cast Cure IV on myself!"

I always thought PLD is the defenders of the defenseless. I hope SE wont let us down.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

"Hey guys I'm going to hurt myself(.)"

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Time to level dark knight instead!

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Originally Posted by DebbieGibson

To edit my earlier post, or just level whm? What is the problem with just playing a different job if pld isn't needed. It's still your character

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Because it should be useful or not exist. Telling me to play a different job does nothing to solve the problem of a class with no job to fill.

And I do play different jobs. I'd like to break out the heavy armor every once in a while. Paladin is easily the best-dressed job in the game, but there's no reason to pull any of my gear out of my locker. This is a problem.

You still don't seem to understand that "play a different job if pld isn't needed" means you'll never be on Paladin. There's no reason to play it, outside of unfamiliar T4 Voidwatch NMs. Once people figure out the gimmicks to those enemies, that too will be an event where Paladin is shelved in favor of SAM, WAR, DRK and MNK. This cycle of figuring out new content will continue until there is no more new content on the horizon, and then Paladin will be permanently out of a job. This is what needs addressing. All the short-sighted people on here barking about Voidwatch are obfuscating the underlying problem.

Agreed. I've got PLD, WAR, WHM, THF, BLU, SAM, RDM, COR, RNG, NIN levelled. I pride myself on versatility. For whatever event I go what's needed. The problem is, PLD is never really needed. PLD is the first job I levelled, it's the job I tanked gods with at 68 waaaaay baaaack in the day.
I love the job change function, it's what makes FFXI unique. But I would like for there to be a role PLD can fill in parties where I can be useful when the mob isn't spamming Tier VIII -ga spells and hate resets on a 5 minute timer and the only smart damage is an ally of BLMs. I don't want to go back to those days.
Other games allow tons of jobs to fill different roles with different specializations.
WHM unfortunately has stolen all the roles of healing (best single target healer, best AoE healer, best HoT healer, best pre-emptive/shield healer (Cureskin) along with with better buffs and with 95, can cover all RDMs enfeebles adequately.
SE has flatly stated that they will not increase PLDs offensive abilities.
So that leaves us with tank, which PLD does adequately, but due to the initial mechanics not planning for DDs dishing out 3-7k WS every 10-20s, we get dusted. And it's not like our mitigation abilites are the best, we're dusted by one of the DDs that can out damage us as well as out mitigate us.
Or support, which I'm sure RDM, SCH and COR would like to be buffed there first.
Can anyone else think of a role for PLD to play?

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Originally Posted by Darkwizardzin

...so in your eyes SE should buff plds attack and def so that it will be an unkillable god that puts all other jobs to shame? Job balance be damned let make pld overpowered so everyone will invite them!

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Wait, you mean like RDM was @75?