Screwed again: Proposed THF job adjustments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Draylo

Bind, Gravity, Break SLeep don't work on most End game NMs. Stun, I will give you that. The point I am making is THF does have more than one role available besides TH whore, if you don't use that secondary role it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I never use BLM to enfeeble when I have a RDM.

---

What everyone seems to have missed here are the 6 words: Burn, Choke, Frost, Drown, Rasp and Shock. Maybe because none of you are Taru, idk, but at level 75 I had a 150 INT build on my BLM which gave -13 to enemy's stat, and 5 hp/tick DoT damage, and you can stack 3 of them (sometimes only 2, depending on enemy's resistant elements). Now at 90 and inside abyssea I hit 250 INT (without food or buffs from any other players). I haven't seen any evidence of there being higher tiers of these spells, but if there are... I'm there.

THAT is a primary example of using a BLM to both nuke AND enfeeble, where a RDM, WHM, BRD, DRK etc don't get the same ability. 2 pages of arguing this, and everyone missed this?!

Sorry to bring it up again, it was 3-5 pages ago, but I was at work for that argument.

Also at Draylo - I really don't care about anything that you say in this thread after reading the comment "I haven't read this whole thread, deal with it".
If I come in to a thread on page ~12 or whatever, I'll at least read the first 2 and last 2 pages. Then, when I comment, I'll start with "I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but it's a long thread and it would take me forever to read it all".
Your comment was just rude, and insulting to everyone who posted here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tokiro

True enough. I wasn't trying to show you up, just summarize comments. What I meant to say was they weren't all out on increasing the direct damage stats on daggers. Most people seemed to want increases through abilities and conditions that make THF fun to play. Just turning it into "SuperThief - The Revenge" was not on their list of priorities.

---

Toriko, there's a Com.Rep. reply on the JP THF thread. If you could translate that for us it would be super amazing.

Howdy! We spoke to the development team about your feedback on thief and they provided some commentary. The below is a compilation of responses to both the English and Japanese suggestions/feedback. Hopefully it will give you a better idea of what is planned for thief in the future.

With the large amount of job adjustment discussion going on we have A LOT of feedback to sort through, so while this might not answer every single thing being discussed at the moment, we will try our best to update when we can. Likewise, we will be making our rounds to other job related threads as well!

So, without further ado…

Quote:

---

Instead of increasing the chances of successfully executing Steal and Despoil, can you actually add some attractive items to monsters for us to target?

---

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

Quote:

---

Steal has no effect on notorious monsters…

---

That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.

Quote:

---

Make Aura Steal its own ability.

---

We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.

Quote:

---

Add Aura Steal to Despoil as well.

---

Though we haven’t decided if it will be Aura Steal or not, we do have some rough plans for adding some kind of additional effect to Despoil.

Quote:

---

Split up the recast timers for Steal and Despoil.

---

We are looking into separating the two. However, we are close to reaching a point where there are too many recast timers going on simultaneously, so this isn't something we can implement right away.

Quote:

---

With ranger getting Treasure Hunter, dancer getting Triple Attack, and warrior having critical hits, I feel like all of thief’s big selling points have been taken away by other jobs.

---

While thieves possess superior stats for all of the above, we do understand your concerns. I apologize that I can’t go into detail about specific abilities, but we are planning to make adjustments so that thieves are really able to shine.

Quote:

---

Add Subtle Blow to thief.

---

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.

Quote:

---

I really hope that the new ability that complements Sneak Attack and Trick Attack is not on a shared recast timer with one of the two abilities.

---

Don’t worry, it will be separate!

Thank you for the translation, Camate! And thank you for stopping by the thread.

Is it bad that I reread that, then reread it again, then checked to see if it was in a job forum, THEN got hit with shock?

I believe most players disagree with the idea that a dispel/low chance buff-steal on a 5 minute timer would be broken, but even if aura steal was a seperate ability on a 1 minute timer, it's not like it would fix us.

Otherwise vague, but way more specific than I had hoped.

I understand you guys can't give an exact "New JA/JT/etc" layout because stuff changes, hasn't been fully thought through yet, etc. However, I believe I can say without a doubt every THF that plays THF for anything more than "Tag TH, go read a book." thanks you immensely for at least acknowledging our feedback.

I want to thank you, Camate, and the development team for taking the time to attempt to address our concerns.

I am really at a loss for words on some of these responses. I am very sorry that this is going to sound disrespectful because this is most certainly not my intention.

But it really does feel that the developement team is very out of touch with the difficulties that the job faces and the actual utility of the unique abilities that THF has left.

Quote:

---

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.

---

This, specifically, worries me greatly. What the treasure hunter melee update has done is create a situation where the mechanics of how the THF job functions are in direct contradiction.

We are supposed to be engaging the monster to enhance treasure hunter? OK. But with A) the extremely low proc rate on Treasure Hunter for melee swings, and B) the sheer amount of TP we feed to high level Notorious Monsters, this has simply created a situation where THF will not be allowed to engage and forced simply to Sneak Attack and Trick Attack the Monster as timers allow while disengaged. Even with subtle blow gear, it is not worth it for a THF to engage for the purpose of Treasure hunter procs on normal attacks.

And quite honestly....I can see no visible difference between treasure hunter effectiveness level 6 and treasure hunter effectiveness level 13. How about throw us a bone and actually TELL us what it does? (I know, I know....what a crazy idea.)

Quote:

---

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

---

This kind of reply makes me think that no one on the Dev Team has ever tested or played THF to know why this won;t work. The dev team removed the possibility for this tactic to work a very long time ago. For 1) Hide doesn't work on much of anything at all (thanks for that btw). 2) After this adjustment, you can only steal from a monster once and then you need to kill and respawn it to be able to steal again.

You must understand the frustration here. The developement team has taken so much from us in this area without giving anything to fill that void. The adjustment to steal to address the gold coin situation, the removal of valuable items from treasure coffers, the phasing out of Mug by refusing to give any new monsters any gil to steal, etc.

I understand this is a difficult issue, but the idea that seperating aurasteal from steal would be overpowered? Especially given that they are tied to a (needlessly long)5 minute recast timer? I don't understand that logic. They are completely seperate abilities with completely seperate functions that, because of the way they were combined, are often in contradiction with each other.

Seperating Aurasteal would not make it overpowered. The fact that it is tied to a 5 minute recast timer AND combined with Steal make it severely underpowered as a 75+ job ability. What seperating them would do is give us our very first steal ability that was acutally useful for its function.

I don't understand this need for the development team to sort of, kind of, almost give THF something that is useful. And then completely kill its relevance with either a needlessly long/shared recast timer or really messed up functionality. There is nothing about THF right now that is even remotely close to thinking about the possibility of being overpowered. Really? REALLY? It would be Overpowered!? THAT is your reason? Are you kidding me with this?

Quote:

---

Though we haven’t decided if it will be Aura Steal or not, we do have some rough plans for adding some kind of additional effect to Despoil.

---

Adding things to Despoil is not going to fix Despoil. The ability itself really needs to be taken a look at and reconsidered. The items that despoil steals are of no use to anyone at this point in the game's lifespan. Adding Despoil as a post-75 level cap ability really accentuates the serious disconnect between the playerbase and the Developement team. I really don't think they understand how taxed our inventory is....that aurasteal and despoil both require you to have inventory space to even attempt to take advantage of their effects

But even the fact that Despoil attempts to steal an item as a requsite for its enfeebling effect to occur is useless at this stage in FFXI's lifespan. The variability of that enfeebling effect, should the steal be a success, is useless in any situation you would want to enfeeble any enemy. A variable enfeebling effect on a 5 minute timer is really quite useless. But most importantly, the fact that it takes away the ability to (aura)steal (the ONLY remotely useful steal we have) makes it exceptionally useless.

Again, I am sorry to sound disrespectful. I know what I knightmare it must be to address agnry and whiny players demading changes for their job.

But the disconnect between the playerbase and the Dev Team on these key issues really worries me. After seeing their vision for the job and hearing these responses, I find myself very discouraged for the future of my beloved THF.

You are so worried about making us "over powered" that almost everything you have given us has been "under powered" to the point of functional uselessness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

---

1. hide only works on mobs that are sight only tracking
2. Instead of steal giving actual items, make it steal AoE based temp items that can benefit the pt as a whole. you know? like the abyssea temp items. makes the above concerns invalid.
3. for the love of all that is good and holy.... 1... min... recast..........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered. If we did do this, it’s likely that its use on notorious monsters would be removed and it would have even less of an effect than it does now.

---

the fact that any mage job can cast dispel makes this point invalid, making this a separate ability on a 1 min timer as well wouldn't break the job or be overpowered. if anything it'd go a long way towards helping fix the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.

---

i personally would rather have native subtle blow than a +.000000001% increase on an item that has a 5% drop rate. wonder if anyone else playing thf feels the same? (for the record yes i know that's not the actual % at which TH increases drop rates, but tell me it don't feel that way sometimes....)

I know your just relaying the information Camate, but i cant help but feel deeply disapointed... the information you have relayed has left me feeling that the dev team has no clue... this both deeply disturbs and sadens me.

honestly, since your worried about game balance in terms of steal/aura steal/despoil why are you so intent on improving upon it? your not going to add anything to make these abilities worth using, or increase their utility to a player, beyond the fact that these abilities are damn near useless, adjusting them will do nothing for a thief main.

the last good DD'esc buff you gave us was Assassin, a good 5? 6? years ago... thats just sad, when half our main DD ability is wrought with difficulty to utilize (sneak attack), you tell us to beat on mobs for TH but say no to subtle blow, you out source the abilities that make our job unique whats left?

If you want to take this back in the right direction keep the TH system as it is and start giving us abilities that encourage/enhance our DD capabilities, like subtle blow.

So you don't want to add items worth stealing because then people might want to steal them?

When you put it like that it sounds silly.

Quote:

---

We believe making Aura Steal a separate ability would be over-powered.

...

Due to the fact that normal attacks now increase the effects of Treasure Hunter, we chose to forgo the addition of Subtle Blow as a trade off.

---

Neither of these abilities have any direct combat function whatsoever, so I don't see how adding effects to them that do have a combat function would be overpowered.

Thief needs to have more attraction to it than just a boost to drops.

You've added NMs to the game that set every single magic spell and ability to full recast, which means that giving us more recast timers has nothing to do with server load and all to do with player ability. We are the players and we're telling you we WANT our recast timers to be separate for steal and despoil.

Along with making them separate recast timers, reduce the cooldown on them to 1-2 minutes. (At the very least reduce steal to 1-2 minutes if you don't want to reduce both.)

Furthermore, aura steal requires you to put many merits into if if you want to steal the buff. If you're going to say that aura steal is for NMs and that's why they don't have steal pools then you have to make aura steal not a merit or at least change the way the merits work. (IE: 0/5 is just dispell, 1/5 is 50% steal, 2/5 is 100% steal, 3/5 4/5 5/5 is increased buff duration.)

You say you don't want thieves just hide+stealing again, but we can't do that anyway. Did you forget that the mobs steal pool doesn't refresh until we kill it? If abyssea depop respawn is different from aggro depop it's still okay because we can't hide from many of the mobs in that zone. We can't hide from any of the new NMs because they're all true sight/sound. And last but not least hide will still be 5 minutes long meaning we can't just hide+steal every 1-2 minutes.

Also, it seems apparent that you've completely forgotten about the existence of mug. Mug is on a fifteen minute cooldown and does absolutely nothing. Reduce it's cooldown, and make it do something.

I have to wonder if negative feedback is filtered?

Coming from the marketing world, I know how easy it can be to want to view negative feedback as not constructive or just internet nerds raging...and there is some of that here for sure...

...but the Dev team really needs to know, and if they are smart,PAY ATTENTION to how negative this feedback is. It is the most valuable feedback you will recieve.

To seemingly ignore a playerbase that is literally begging you to give them more reasons to keep giving you their money is probably the reason FFXI has never been as successful as it could have been. As it SHOULD have been.

"It will be too difficult to do this" and "PS2 limitations" that is getting very, very, very old.

It has taken you this long to engage us in conversation...

...why are you still not listening? It's bad for business. I can't speak for everyone, but it will most certainly lose you mine.

So, Camate's post honestly, left two routes open:
1) Nonspecific DD buffs
2) TH whore for life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

I can't speak for everyone, but it will most certainly lose you mine.

---

I doubt that lol...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Babekeke

What everyone seems to have missed here are the 6 words: Burn, Choke, Frost, Drown, Rasp and Shock. Maybe because none of you are Taru, idk, but at level 75 I had a 150 INT build on my BLM which gave -13 to enemy's stat, and 5 hp/tick DoT damage, and you can stack 3 of them (sometimes only 2, depending on enemy's resistant elements). Now at 90 and inside abyssea I hit 250 INT (without food or buffs from any other players). I haven't seen any evidence of there being higher tiers of these spells, but if there are... I'm there.

THAT is a primary example of using a BLM to both nuke AND enfeeble, where a RDM, WHM, BRD, DRK etc don't get the same ability. 2 pages of arguing this, and everyone missed this?!

Sorry to bring it up again, it was 3-5 pages ago, but I was at work for that argument.

Also at Draylo - I really don't care about anything that you say in this thread after reading the comment "I haven't read this whole thread, deal with it".
If I come in to a thread on page ~12 or whatever, I'll at least read the first 2 and last 2 pages. Then, when I comment, I'll start with "I'm sorry if this has already been covered, but it's a long thread and it would take me forever to read it all".
Your comment was just rude, and insulting to everyone who posted here.

---

Oh boo hoo, I'm not reading 17 pages just to post my opinion and respond to someone who is responding to me. I could care less if they said it once before, if they don't wanna say it again then don't. You don't *have* to post and respond.

@the THF stuff, I think it sucks they feel players would actually wanna use steal more often... In past FF games (yes I keep referencing them because they are important) there were tons of battle where you wanted to steal items all the time, most important was FF9 boss battles. THF should be able to steal more items, useful items. I haven't used steal to get an items in over 2 years, almost certainly... I use it exclusively to claim or aura steal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

So, Camate's post honestly, left two routes open:
1) Nonspecific DD buffs
2) TH whore for life.

---

Called it before the reply.

Perhaps give THF the ability to choose whether they would want to increase TH potency or subtle blow.

You could make it where a THF's TH potency increase is always active however you could create a JA that increases subtle blow potency but negates the TH effect from going off.

What would be nice about this is there are mobs where at times TH isn't useful so it would be nice to give THF the ability to enhance their abilities by other means when TH is deemed useless to them.

In terms of steal and balancing it out. You could possibly do this. I think it would be very simple to code but basically create this code.

When you steal from x mob type you are unable to steal anything from that mob until you kill that mob type.

So basically the idea of a person stealing then running from a mob would be invalid since they would need to kill said mob type in order for them to even have a chance of stealing from them again. From what you've said your main concern about steal is the fact that a person would steal then make the mob despawn rinse repeat. If you setup a code that prevents said player from stealing unless that mob is killed by them or in the same party then I think it would be possible to add more items to steal.

However as another suggestion granted it's far away from now but I believe it would be possible to give THF a boost in dungeons and make steal potent within dungeons to make things easier. While most all other jobs would have to find keys and such within a dungeon the THF would be able to lockpick it.

Anyways while I can sort of understand the caution of adding certain abilities, the main issue THF's have is they feel SE has delegated them to TH onry. But ya I'd be curious to see another response from the devs as to a more detailed idea of what kind of abilities they wish to give THF's if perhaps we could have a taste or idea of actual abilities and traits it may help to ease peoples worries of the future of THF.

Quote:

---

Also, it seems apparent that you've completely forgotten about the existence of mug. Mug is on a fifteen minute cooldown and does absolutely nothing. Reduce it's cooldown, and make it do something.

---

Somewhat incorrect. Mug only works on mobs that actually carries gil (IE, if they drop it upon defeat, you can mug it.) I did made quite a bit of money mugging NMs in sky, and occasionally running by shadow dragon every time I go to Dynamis - Xarcabard.

I do agree with one thing, 15 minutes is kind of too long for mug, but eh.

Quote:

---

By adding attractive items to monsters, we fear that it would be re-creating the scenario from the past regarding beastcoins (stealing and then hiding right after), making this pretty difficult to implement. If there were a good countermeasure for this it could work, but currently revamping or adding items to monsters is quite difficult.

---

This generally only works on mobs that only track (and aggro) by sight. IE: Goblins and Yagudos for the most part, when it comes to the said issue in question. Not to mention, once you steal from a mob, you can't steal again til they are killed. So to be honest, I really don't see how this is an issue.

There is nothing wrong with THF and the role it is played. Get a grip of yourselves. If you don't like it, level another job.

THF has TH - Yes you will be a TH whore but get a WHM & Tank that doesnt suck so you call full-time it, not pull hate and not die.

SA & TA vs. the new WAR JA - If I am reading it correctly, a JA to force the next melee hit to crit is nothing too special on WAR. The reason SA & TA is so powerful is because of their DEX / AGI mods, which I am guessing WAR won't get. This JA will only be useful outside abyssea as crit hit rate is usually capped in abyssea apart from some of the higher level nm's.

If you think THF is in the class of a heavy-DD, you are insanely wrong. Yes they deal more damage now that crit hit rate can be capped easily with atmas & buffs, however THF was never designed to deal heavy damage. It will never deal heavy damage in comparison to jobs designed for this so stop trying to moan about DD's getting job abilities that will let them do their jobs better - and that is Damage Dealing.

Before you start the /emorage, no I do not have a level 90 WAR, yes I do have a level 90 THF and I think it is stupid to think that THF will ever be more then hate control & TH.

A useful update? Perhaps a JA that forces a TH build proc with a recast of 1 or 2 mins would be nice. Apart from that THF has all the tools it needs in order to do it's job - and that is to get gear / items to drop.

So uh...What is the intended use of "Steal" then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alderin

There is nothing wrong with THF and the role it is played. Get a grip of yourselves. If you don't like it, level another job.

---

Riiiiight. This is clearly the answer to the problem. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

SA & TA vs. the new WAR JA - If I am reading it correctly, a JA to force the next melee hit to crit is nothing too special on WAR. The reason SA & TA is so powerful is because of their DEX / AGI mods, which I am guessing WAR won't get. This JA will only be useful outside abyssea as crit hit rate is usually capped in abyssea apart from some of the higher level nm's.

---

No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS. If they get the ability to force Crits outside on non-empyrean WS that can't crit naturally...WITHOUT the retarded positional restrictions...seriously, gtfo with that bs.

Quote:

---

If you think THF is in the class of a heavy-DD, you are insanely wrong.

---

Seriously, why does every herp a derp come in here after not reading the thread, or the concerns mentioned and throw this retarded statement around. NO ONE in this thread has asked for this.....or said THF should be this.

Quote:

---

Before you start the /emorage, no I do not have a level 90 WAR, yes I do have a level 90 THF and I think it is stupid to think that THF will ever be more then hate control & TH.

---

I think it is pretty stupid to think that a THF can "control" hate in any endgame situation....at all. Trick attack is dependant on *GASP* DAMAGE.....like nowai. And Accomplorator timers are too long/shared (not to mention party only) to be able to control....anything.

I think maybe....juuust maybe, you just don't know what you are talking about.

Quote:

---

THF has all the tools it needs in order to do it's job - and that is to get gear / items to drop.

---

See above.

or how about, being a TH whore only is just about as fun as watching paint dry? we were one of the original 6 jobs, and originally we were a DD.

just because you only care to TH whore doesn't mean that the rest of us want that to be our ONLY role in anything, i dont want to be the top DD in the game, hell i dont care if they even give us some kind of weak buff, but at this point any augment to our damage capabilities would be nice (DW1 aside... though that can hardly be called a buff)

and as the previous post states, war getting the ability to force crit outside abyssea without a positional restriction is just wrong, yeah yeah we get DEX mods, when the NM's in the middle of doing the normal whirlwind hate dance when are we suposed to sneak attack? oh wait lets hid... opps that doesnt work on NM's hmmm.... i got it control hate with accomplise!! nvm i have hate now.

i've been a thief since day one of my time playing this game, and ive waited, very patiently, for 4/7ish years ive been playing very patiently for any life signs on the matter on hand, this manifesto has crushed any hope i had that they may ever do anything for thief besides forcing the job into a TH only role. This is a game after all, i play to have fun, fun isn't running in and getting scolded for feeding tp, or trying to chase an NM's back for sneak attack, fun isn't tickling mobs outside abyssea.

For those of you who would argue go level another job, well what if im told to come to an event on thief what then? your argument fails, im now without choice on the matter.

As a closing statment its not just in the NA forums that DD augments are being requested, so if you want to jump in here and go LOLTHFDD LEVELAREALJOBNOOB, GTFO not only are you a minority in this matter but you're a damn retard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

That’s what Aura Steal is for! The effects stolen by Aura Steal are essentially the raw stats that the monster possesses.

---

Aura Steal should not be required to make Steal useful. If the Dev Team is saying this, then it needs to be a natural Job Trait or even it's on Job Ability on a 1 minute timer to be useful like other forms of Dispel since none of them come even close to a 5 minute timer.

The same can and should be said about Shellra V/Protectra V, Dia III, Bio III, Paralyze II, Slow II, Blind II, and Phalanx II, as well as all the SMN Group 2 merits.

None of these things should be required, and if the Dev team starts saying they are required to make something useful, then they need to make them available naturally to jobs and fix the merits completely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

I want to thank you, Camate, and the development team for taking the time to attempt to address our concerns.

I am really at a loss for words on some of these responses. I am very sorry that this is going to sound disrespectful because this is most certainly not my intention.

But it really does feel that the developement team is very out of touch with the difficulties that the job faces and the actual utility of the unique abilities that THF has left.



This, specifically, worries me greatly. What the treasure update has done is create a situation where the mechanics of how the THF job functions are in direct contradiction.

We are supposed to be engaging the monster to enhance treasure hunter? OK. But with A) the extremely low proc rate on Treasure Hunter for melee swings, and B) the sheer amount of TP we feed to high level Notorious Monsters, this has simply created a situation where THF will not be allowed to engage and forced simply to Sneak Attack and Trick Attack the Monster as timers allow while disengaged. Even with subtle blow gear, it would not be worth it for Treasure hunter procs.



You must understand the frustration here. The developement team has taken so much from us in this area without anything in its place. The fabled gold coin adjustment, the removal of valuable items from treasure coffers, the phasing out of Mug by failing to give any new monsters anything to mug, etc.

I understand this is a difficult issue, but the idea that seperating aurasteal from steal would be overpowered? Especially given that they are tied to a (needlessly long)5 minute recast timer? I don't understand that logic. They are completely seperate abilities with completely seperate functions that, because of the way they were combined, are often in contradiction with each other.

Seperating Aurasteal would not make it overpowered. The fact that it is tied to a 5 minute recast timer AND combined with Steal make it severely underpowered as a 75+ job ability. What seperating them would do is give us our very first steal ability that was acutally useful for its function.

I don't understand this need for the development team to sort of, kind of, almost give THF something that is useful. And then completely kill its relevance with either a needlessly long or shared recast timer. There is nothing about THF right now that is overpowered.



Adding things to Despoil is not going to fix it. The ability itself really needs to be taken a look at and reconsidered. The items that despoil steals are of no use to anyone at this point in the game's lifespan. Adding Despoil as a post-75 level cap ability shows a serious disconnect between the playerbase and the Developement team. I really don't think they understand how taxed our inventory is....that aurasteal and despoil both require you to have inventory space to even attempt to take advantage of their effects

But even the fact that Despoil attempts to steal an item as a requsite for its enfeebling effect to occur is useless at this stage in FFXI's lifespan. The variability of that enfeebling effect, should the steal be a success, is useless in any situation you would want to enfeeble any enemy. A variable enfeebling effect on a 5 minute timer is really quite useless. But most importantly, the fact that it takes away the ability to (aura)steal (the ONLY remotely useful steal we have) makes it exceptionally useless.

Again, I am sorry to sound disrespectful. I know what I knightmare it must be to address agnry and whiny players demading changes for their job.

But the disconnect between the playerbase and the Dev Team on these key issues really worries me. After seeing their vision for the job and hearing these responses, I find myself very discouraged for the future of my beloved THF.

---

^ Pretty much this. These days I use Steal only to dispel something but:
a) Orthrus puts on his Blaze spikes back 15 seconds later anyway (now when I think about it, how about making it so that monster is unable to regain the Aura Stolen effect for the next 5min? one can only dream...)
b) my memory fails here, but there are effects on new NMs that can not be dispelled with Aura Steal, so... where's that overpowerness of the ability you're talking about? (hmm, Pantokrator's shock spikes maybe? anyone got better fail examples?).
To me it looks like Aura Steal has no effect on Notorious Monsters either.

The last thing I'm confident to reliably use Steal for it's actual purpose is Mythril Beastcoins in Sea Serpent Grotto. Any higher level content after that is not worth the trouble. Completing a stack of Gold Beastcoins takes like how long; 2-3 hours if lucky? And it doesn't even buy you 12 Shihei toolbags. Who'd call that overpowered?

Despoiling Ladybug Wings, Goblin Chocolates, Murex Spicules... if I got free space to spare, they feed closest NPC for 30gil or so, if I can't afford having junk in inventory, the ability is never even used. Where's it's utility for anything other than amusement for a laugh? Anyone got any example of lv77 THF job ability contributing to the success of you or your party's battle?

No Subtle Blow (and probably lame Dual Wield) due to chance of upgrading TH effect. Personally I have never seen TH upgrade to more than 11, and that was with me and my friend THF+THF using hand-to-hand on Behemoth and SA/TA each other for 20-25min, at which point it has almost no HP left and we are few minutes away from raging it. Each time we reached TH10, few times 11. And guess what? Out of all the battles only 1 Savoury Shank. Doesn't bump from 8% droprate established in the other thread anyway from what I saw. I want my 99 Kindred Seals back.

Does SE really envision parties and alliances staggering battles in future endgame content for 20-30min+ so that TH goes up to 10-11? Tell me the last time you got that shining Voidwatch body armor thanks to THF efforts. As soon as healers cap their hate outside Abyssea, the battle ends. And please don't bring up the idea of PLD holding hate at that point. If I'm standing with mages to Collaborator them, it has no visible impact aside from me capping hate before them and everyone eating Thundaga III (or Thundaja, the new buzzword) anyway. It is not possible to SA/TA for TH and Collaborator mages in the same time either due to lame range of Collaborator. That is, if you can actually approach AoE spamming monster in content designed so that PLD does not look like a wasted party slot anymore.

As for that third ability, I hope it's something else than Side Attack (hit monster from the side to score critical hit! modificator: Charisma!).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

While thieves possess superior stats for all of the above, we do understand your concerns. I apologize that I can’t go into detail about specific abilities, but we are planning to make adjustments so that thieves are really able to shine.

---

No disrespect Camate, but I saw example of THF adjustments in the latest version update (extended Collaborator/Accomplice range not being even noticable; DNC Climatic Flourish, DRK Last Resort in comparison etc.), so at the moment I'm under the impression THF is not being taken seriously. Right now, from what Devs said about THF's future, it looks very bleak to me (and many others, as you've probably seen).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nala

or how about, being a TH whore only is just about as fun as watching paint dry? we were one of the original 6 jobs, and originally we were a DD.

---

I'll tell you what. I would be perfectly happy (really happy actually) being a loot whore job if being a Treasure Hunter had anything at all to do with the skill of the THF. Or if vastly superior DD jobs with "!!" weakness triggers couldn't increase drop rates better than I could ever hope to.

When a naked, subjobless mule account with only 3 pieces of gear can do the exact same job that a near-decade career THF can....there is really something wrong.

I'm going to link to a post that I think sums up my feelings on this pretty well. Banalaty over on Allakhazam had this to say about THF:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...2&h=50&p=5#210

Quote:

---

What Im gettin at is that all the other jobs are chosen based on what player PLAYS their niche the best. If you have 2 whms and you want 1, you pick the one who heals better/more efficiently. Everyone knows the difference between having the 4th string benchwarmer whm in your party instead of your LS A-Team whm. One always seems to have MP and everyone alive. The other is out of MP in 15 seconds and everyone is dead. Everyone knows the difference between a crappy war and a good war they know. When you go through your linkshell/friendlist to fill a job role you try to get the GOOD one 1st.

THe definition of a 'good' whm vs a 'bad' whm is a skill based distinction. One sucks, the other doesnt. There are good wars that rape face and bad ones that just cant ever seem to do any damage. There are plds that cant hold hate for crap and die to 'easy' mobs. There are good ones that can seem invincible. My point is that for virtually every job, when filling a role, the 1st thing you look for is who is better at the job and that difference is skill based. For thf, you ask "Who has TH6?".

Thf is the only job that when choosing one, the priority is made exclusivly by 3 pieces of gear. Hands, Weapon, Feet. It isnt who plays it well unlike, say a whm. If thf is forced into a nich (which every job is more or less) then the difference between a good and bad thf should be skill based (like every other job) and not the aquisition of 3 pieces of gear. (see my example a few posts up about being the 'best' thf in LS but not having TH6). The 'skill' of a thf is rated second to their TH level. The skill should be the most important thing just like every other job.

Nothing wrong with filling a specific niche. Nothing at all. The difference is TH niche has nothing to do with the player and everything to do with 3 pieces of gear, and that is the ONLY niche thf fills. Thus I would propose either: Make TH somehow skill-based (dont know how that would be implemented well) or give them a new niche (tons of way to implement). Id rather not compete in the flooded DD 'niche' so to speak.

There are still times that you dont need a super leet whm, and really any whm will do. This is true for thf as well. SOemtimes you JUST need TH and really any thf will do, but there is not really any time that you NEED a skilled thf, but you do need a skilled (tank, healer, support, DD etc). Something like expanding the hate manipulation or some other 'niche' would mean there ARE times that you would specifically seek out a 'skilled' thf over anyone with TH6. That is the distinction that I would like to see come to thf. A point where it matters at all what you do besides have TH6.

---

People look at anything other than the general section?

Not to mention that the dev's answer questions from places other than the general section?

what is this

I'm awake, I'm awake D:!

First Off i'd like to deeply thank you Camate for coming here and speaking to us, and further thank you for speaking to the Dev team on our behalf. I'd like to ask 1 question!

Do you relay any Job Ability/Job Trait Suggestions to them? By their responses it feels like "We already have a plan for THF and aren't taking any advice", to the point i ask, Why bother with these forums?

Maybe I'm reading them wrong but it really feels like these job forums are a charade and any input we have is ignored. I'm not saying you don't deliver the messages, I'm saying it feels like you deliver them into a paper shredder so to speak. Am i the only one who read that and got the feeling they had THF planned out for 91-99 already and had no intention to change or deviate from the plan at all?

Anyway, I'm probably being paranoid, But moving on :X

On the topic of balance, The problem that has occurred many times in trying to "not make a job too powerful" has been inevitably that job will becoming realistically worthless with a slew of worthless abilities. I Admit TH is the one only thing keeping the job afloat, and its a wonderful thing, But as the Subtle Blow comment depicted, THF, and the Devs, Sacrifice far to much for TH...

Examples of jobs becoming worthless because of "Fear" Of overpowering them. - RDM, DRK(Souleater nerfs on everything), RNG... THF now.

After seeing where and why the Devs are concerned about timers. Perhaps i can make just a few more suggestions? Maybe address some of their concerns...

*Still like the idea of reducing Steal/Mug/Despoil Timers.
**Reduce Steal to 1min, Despoil to 2, and Mug to 3.
**Make them, as in some past games, deal Damage, and grant TP. This will give THFs a strong use for them even during Endgame events where you cannot steal from a NM (outside of a Merited job trait). The DMG doesn't have to be Lavish, but i suggest a DEX mod similar to jumps VIT mod, and it giving a wee bit more TP than a normal hit.

*On Stealing "Pricy" Items.
**I think i read one suggestion asking to be able to Steal/Despoil these "Rare items" From NMs. You cannot hide from NMs. (Well, Abyssea/Voidwatch, true endgame content). Further more mob can only be stolen from once as far as i know. We're asking for something like... If you're fighting Hahava, you have a small chance to steal a Hahava's Mail. This can only happen once per fight, and given the low rate of success steal has (like all over THF abilities), It would not be as broken as you fear.

*On Despoil, The problem with Despoil is it only works on Garbage mobs (I.E non-NMs), Most of which die in a matter of seconds, ergo this ability is functionally useless in a party. I think Despoil's "Effect" Should be 100% chance to proc, regardless of item stolen. Its not really that broken, We're level 90, Soon to be 99, Why is SE afraid to give THF a chance to Slow a mob every 5 minutes?
**Some way to target the effect from Despoil. Not specifically, but narrow it down. (I suggest a way to do this a while back in this thread, through head/body/legs targeting). RDM can chose to cast Gravity, BLM can chose to cast Choke. Why is THF Stuck like a bad AI? "Oh, you silenced the Crabs, thanks THF!" type of situation. Whats even worse is that not only is despoil 5 minute restricted and sharing a timer, its not even 100%, So like most of THF's abilities, you can use it and...... nothing happens, congrats go wait 5 minutes.

*Someone mentioned Stealing Temp items. This is a brilliant idea and would work nicely in Voidwatch and the like. But the Temp items should go to everyone too.

If the Dev team is absolutely dead-set on keeping us a master of Gimmicks, could the Gimmicks at least be useful... Its not like we're asking Despoil to inflict Death on a 30 second recast, Just that the timers are lowered to accommodate the 99 cap. When it comes to end-game events, 5 minutes is an excruciatingly long time.

One last thing, on Aura Steal being too powerful.

PUP has a Dispel Attachment. short timer
Every Mage can get dispel, its like 10 second recast.
BLU gets like 5 forms of dispel, one AoE, and 2 including a dispel that absorbs the buff, 56 second recast (Voracious Trunk), and Osmosis, drains HP AND Absorbs a buff. 90 second recast.

THF gets Aura Steal, 5 minute timer, does not always drain the buff, can miss. Has to be merited.

Tell me again, How exactly is balance an Issue when every single job can dispel, and BLU can basically Aura Steal multiple times in a much shorter period of time?

Someone on BG Said it better than i could

Quote:

---

I understand that they have a vision of how it should be played, but how can they not realize that NOBODY DOES IT THAT WAY. Instead of trying to cram useless adjustments that are aligned with their own views of how the game should be played, why not make adjustments that are in line with how people actually DO play the game. .

---

Quote:

---

One last thing, on Aura Steal being too powerful.

PUP has a Dispel Attachment. short timer
Every Mage can get dispel, its like 10 second recast.
BLU gets like 3 dispels including a dispel that absorbs the buff, 56 second recast (Voracious Trunk)
BLU gets a second dispel that drains HP AND Absorbs a buff. 90 second recast (Osmosis)

THF gets Aura Steal, 5 minute timer, does not always drain the buff, can miss. Has to be merited.

Tell me again, How exactly is balance an Issue when every single job can dispel, and BLU can basically Aura Steal multiple times in a much shorter period of time?

---

Because you have treasure hunter. Now kindly shut up, stop complaining, tag the HNM with Treasure Hunter like you used to and go sit in a corner.

Actually, scratch that. Switch to BRD or BLM please, because my level 90 THF mule with only 3 pieces of gear and no merits whatsoever can replace you...... <.< lolcareerTHF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

Because you have treasure hunter. Now kindly shut up, stop complaining, tag the HNM with TH like you used to and go sit in a corner.

---

That is pretty much exactly what i think the DEVs are thinking when they're presented with our complaints.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyla420

1. hide only works on mobs that are sight only tracking

---

Something I just wanted to mention really quick because most people, even life-long thieves, don't seem to understand that there are other situations in which you can make hide work. Skeletons are one of the best examples; they detect by sound and HP, yet you can hide from them as long as your HP is above 75%. There are other more annoying ways to hide from other creatures, such as popping a deodorizer before using hide to successfully hide from certain scent-tracking enemies. This is all mostly a moot point though seeing as how hide is largely an underpowered ability. My opinion is that it should automatically succeed on anything that isn't an NM, and on NMs it should still be an automatic hate reset on the thf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Something I just wanted to mention really quick because most people, even life-long thieves, don't seem to understand that there are other situations in which you can make hide work. Skeletons are one of the best examples; they detect by sound and HP, yet you can hide from them as long as your HP is above 75%. There are other more annoying ways to hide from other creatures, such as popping a deodorizer before using hide to successfully hide from certain scent-tracking enemies. This is all mostly a moot point though seeing as how hide is largely an underpowered ability. My opinion is that it should automatically succeed on anything that isn't an NM, and on NMs it should still be an automatic hate reset on the thf.

---

The major limiting factor with Hide is whether or not the monster tracks by smell. If it doesn't track by scent, or doesn't have True sight/true hearing you can hide from it.

The problem is there aren't very many worthwhile things at all that meet those requirements.

In the case of mobs like Skeletons that detect sound, if you don't run away with the quickness imediately after you hide, they will just reaggro you again because hide doesn't give sneak.

Because THF gets TH, they ALWAYS have a spot in a group.

Salvage.
Nyzul.
HNM.
Sky.
Limbus.
Dynamis.
Abyssea.

Everything.

I think this should be very highly noted. I don't think it should make them gimp in every other situation, but I also don't think that THF, which is also, in a way, a high survivability job, needs too much else.

However their "Enmity Control" aspect is completely useless to a point (at least at the moment). If they could shed their accumulated hate onto someone else, it'd be an even more highly desired job.

It seems that SE's "vision" is to have all jobs equally desired, and THF just doesn't have that problem.

Personally I think they should go back to enmity control and spike damage (along with TH), but maybe that's just me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

Riiiiight. This is clearly the answer to the problem. :rolleyes:

---

Yep. If you don't like it, do something else.

Quote:

---

No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS. If they get the ability to force Crits outside on non-empyrean WS that can't crit naturally...WITHOUT the retarded positional restrictions...seriously, gtfo with that bs.

---

And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's. So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively, and yet you are whinging that you don't have Dual Wield II+ natively unless you /NIN or /DNC? Same concept here... "Other jobs should stop stealing our unique traits and abilities. Yet I think we need dual wield from NIN & DNC". Q.Q more.

Besides, if you can't land a SA you have a crap tank and should get a better one. If you can't land a TA then you should change jobs. The "positional restrictions" are fine as they are. Lets run upto a mob's face, and "Sneak Attack" his eyeballs..

Quote:

---

Seriously, why does every herp a derp come in here after not reading the thread, or the concerns mentioned and throw this retarded statement around. NO ONE in this thread has asked for this.....or said THF should be this.

---

I would requote what you wrote but ironically it's in the same post. Hell I will do it: "No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS."...

Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.

Quote:

---

I think it is pretty stupid to think that a THF can "control" hate in any endgame situation....at all. Trick attack is dependant on *GASP* DAMAGE.....like nowai. And Accomplorator timers are too long/shared (not to mention party only) to be able to control....anything.

---

Tanks are the hate control, THF is the backup. Always has been like this, always will. If a tank is struggling to hold hate, then the THF is there to support them. A little bit less relevant in Abyssea as the tanks are usually the main DD in the party, however if you do anything outside Abyssea, THF still plays a role in hate control.

As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch.

Quote:

---

I think maybe....juuust maybe, you just don't know what you are talking about.

---

Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..

What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!

If you want to play a different role we come back to the original point here - level a different job!

Disclaimer: My THF was the 3rd job I ever had at lvl 90 (Grinded from 1-75 without abyssea of course). It is what I consider quite well geared, and I am not a complete dumbarse because I know the only use for THF's for end-game events is and will always be TH. Apart from TH & the occasional pull - THF will never be able to do anything better then other jobs.

Peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alderin

Yep. If you don't like it, do something else.

---

I don't agree with this. We love the job, and we have the right to ask for improvements. Helping THF isn't going to nerf other jobs.

Quote:

---

And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's. So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively, and yet you are whinging that you don't have Dual Wield II+ natively unless you /NIN or /DNC? Same concept here... "Other jobs should stop stealing our unique traits and abilities. Yet I think we need dual wield from NIN & DNC". Q.Q more.

---

THF Was originally intended to be a DD. I don't know if you've noticed Job traits like Assassin, and Triple Attack, or Abilities like Sneak Attack, and Trick attack, or Massive boosts to Haste/DD stats on our Empyrean. THF from the beginning was a DPS/DD job. The problem is since level 75 the gap between THF and other DD has widened substantionally. We're asking the gap be lessened a bit.

Secondly, We do have Dual Wield II.

Quote:

---

Besides, if you can't land a SA you have a crap tank and should get a better one. If you can't land a TA then you should change jobs. The "positional restrictions" are fine as they are. Lets run upto a mob's face, and "Sneak Attack" his eyeballs..

---

"I have no idea how Enmity works"?

I'm sorry but even the best tank hits an Enmity cap. While I'm not arguing its easy to land SA or TA as long as you're not Solo or the only Tank, It does not make your response any less uninformed.

I don't deny SA and TA do not need their position restrictions removed, but acting like all you need is a good tank is incorrect. Trick Attack is always easy enough to land, SA is generally the problem if you're getting to hate cap. This is only a big problem in Abyssea, So i don't really even consider it a big issue. Because Abyssea is ending.

Quote:

---

I would requote what you wrote but ironically it's in the same post. Hell I will do it: "No, this JA is retarded. Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS."...

---

Theoretically SE gave us SA and TA to help our WS. I direct your attention to Mercy Stroke, Shark Bite, Mandalic Stab, Viper bite, and Rudra's Storm. all terrible Ws's unless paired with SA or TA. it stands to reason when paired with SA or TA we should do similar damage? Well on somethings we do, So i can't complain too much about this.

Regardless of the fact it all comes back to the fact THF Was originally intended to take a DD's spot, Do you think we had TH for Exp parties? lol... no. We were there for Damage, and Trick Attack. We're not asking to transcend gods, we're asking for the ever larger gap in our power to be shorted a little. if you read the thread, You'd understand that.

Quote:

---

Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.

---

No ones QQ'ing to that? We're QQ'ing our damage is awful. We compare it to WAR/MNK/SAM because those are easily identified as the top-tier DD (In/out Abyssea). We never wanted our DD to compare to a WARs, We're asking that the large gap between our powered be filled slightly.

Thats originally all i wanted. I'm leaning more toward party/support utility at this point, But I don't think we'll even see that if the DEV team thinks Despoil is too overpowered.

Quote:

---

Tanks are the hate control, THF is the backup. Always has been like this, always will. If a tank is struggling to hold hate, then the THF is there to support them. A little bit less relevant in Abyssea as the tanks are usually the main DD in the party, however if you do anything outside Abyssea, THF still plays a role in hate control.

---

It has never "Always been like this". THF has never been needed for Hate control short of Exp parties, even then You can make an exp party without a THF, its not required in any way. To be frank, its a useless role.

Beyond that, not a single Endgame event required a THF For Enmity control in the history of the entire game. Ever. Because no one needed it.

Same goes for right now. No endgame event needs a THF for back-up Enmity control, Because if your group has IQ higher than "potato" they can kill an NM just fine without "Enmity control", because everyone there knows how to do that already. Including tanks.

Quote:

---

As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch.

---

Point is the "DAMAGE" through "TRICK ATTACK" and its "MODS" is terrible. Even Stacking full AGI/ATK like you're suppose too if you're not meleeing, (Because not meleeing you disregard haste factors into DPS for SA/TA), The Damage is barely a noticeable increase. Ever fought Voidwrought? Go check your Average TA numbers. They're about the same as a Great Axe Critical hit you can do once per minute.

AGI adds 1 base damage to your weapon with TA. Even a MIthran THF in full TA gear outside Abyssea will likely just reach ~180 Base Damage weapon, thats just about 50 away from a normal Great axe.Toss in the fact WARs have much higher attack and buffs than us, including more STR, the damage isn't very far. So when you take into account how little damage trick attack does, you see how its not really great as Enmity control

It doesn't do NOTHING, But its not needed at all.

Quote:

---

Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..

What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!

---

No one has debated that Ever? We know all we're good for is TH. We're asking our role extend beyond that. for instance, WHM is also a great Buffer, and Decent Enfeebler, BLM is a good Enfeebler as well, RDM can Cure, Buff, Enfeebled, etc. PLD can Tank and Cure, as well as provide minimal buffs and Support.

THF right now is TH, and very very limited Enmity abilities. If you read my posts you see im moving slightly away from damage and more toward Utility gains.

Quote:

---

Disclaimer: My THF was the 3rd job I ever had at lvl 90 (Grinded from 1-75 without abyssea of course). It is what I consider quite well geared, and I am not a complete dumbarse because I know the only use for THF's for end-game events is and will always be TH. Apart from TH & the occasional pull - THF will never be able to do anything better then other jobs.

---

The problem is THF was never really prepared for its "Endgame role" early on. Back when i first played FFXI, before CoP release, THF was a DD, SATA>Viper Bite to distortion combo was epic. I leveled the job expecting to be a DD at endgame.

I was wrong, We were TH's. You can't blame THF's for wanting back a little of what they had leveling up, power. Our Party-play is so vastly different than our endgame. Seriously what other job is like that? As a THF in an exp party your job is to kick ass and take names, you did decent damage.

Endgame, You hit the mob and Afk No other job has this massive shift i job role based on exp situation or endgame. It doesn't prepare the job for it.

Party Situations:

WHM - Healer, Buffer, Make-shift Enfeebler.
RDM - enfeebler, Healing, Refresh, Buffing.
BLM - Nuker, Limited Enfeebles, Can Cure.
THF - DD, Limited Enmity control (Trick Attack). Puller.

Endgame
Same roles for WHM, RDM, and BLM.

THF? Treasure Hunter. We're not needed for Enmity control, TA is useless as a tool for that in endgame content, Collab/accomp work well, but with no means to dump said Enmity it adds up on the THF, eventually killing it or giving the THF hate, our Damage is crap so we're not considered a DD anymore either.

I don't know where to go from here, Sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Because THF gets TH, they ALWAYS have a spot in a group.

Salvage.
Nyzul.
HNM.
Sky.
Limbus.
Dynamis.
Abyssea.

Everything.

---

THF does not have a spot in: any mission fight, any add on fight, any KSNM, BCNM, ENM, ANNM, Voidwatch (that little light fix they added did functionally squat), non-abyssean exp party, etc.

Quote:

---

I also don't think that THF, which is also, in a way, a high survivability job, needs too much else.

---

I disagree:

MNK + Ridiclous Counter rates

DNC + Crazy insane survivability

NIN + Way more survivabiliy options than THF could ever dream of

WAR + PDT/MDT sets

etc.

Quote:

---

It seems that SE's "vision" is to have all jobs equally desired, and THF just doesn't have that problem.

---

Yes it does. When you do abyssea (farming emp weapons items aside), you make sure you have your proc jobs first, and then if you have a slot left over, you get TH6. TH6 is an icing on the cake afterthought, not a prerequisit. You would never sacrafice your weakness triggers to bring TH.

This is what baffles me, TH was never a crazy, OMG WTFBBQ increase to good drops because it scaled right down with those single digit drop rates. With the addition of weakness triggers dramatically increasing drop rates on quality items, it has allowed groups to get better drop rates now than they could could ever get with a THF alone, without a THF in the party at all if need be.

Yes, they stack but if your group is ready to go with everything but yellow triggers....guess who is going BLM/BRD and not THF?

How am I the loot whore specialst when BLM/BRD is better at making empyrean upgrade seals/+2 items drop?

How am I the loot whore specialist when VASTLY superior DD's with way more blue trigger procs can make armor drop better than I can?

How am I the loot whore specialist when a NIN can make Key Items drop much much better than I can?

How am I the Treasure Hunter Specialist when my Treasure Hunter means jack squat for voidwatch events?

I have always felt like the stagger system should have been given to THF in some way and not spread out across all jobs. A good THF would be able to stagger well and consistantly, increasing drop rates for his group. A pink bandwagon abyssea THF, not so good. Now a days...if you have staggers, you really don't even need a THF for drops. Yeah, they stack, but if Yellow can get you 3 of a +2 item, and the mob can't drop more than 3....yeah.

THF is not the go-to "We need you for loot" guy any more. We're 3rd string even for that. As if that wasn't enoough, they gave away the almighty Treasure Hunter itself to two other jobs!

I am sick to death of hearing "You have TH, stop QQ and be happy herp a derp derp."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alderin

Yep. If you don't like it, do something else.

---

This just so happens to be a negative feedback thread about SE's vision for THF. If you don't like it, post somewhere else....wait a minute, that logic doesn't work does it?

Quote:

---

And they arent meant to be. You are comparing a heavy DD to a single-handed dagger wielding job. Of course stacked WS's arent going to compare with WAR ws's.

---

Yes, I think that with the mechanics, positional restrictions and recast timers of SA/TA, your average stacked weaponskill should be stronger than or at least similar to a comparable WS from a comparably geared WAR.

I don't think you realise just how wide this gap is now. Since we are using WAR as an example, WAR with Haste/buffs/Atma/Retaliation or Counterstance/Hasso/whateverbuffs can literaly spam immensely powerful WS without concern for recast timers or positional restrictions as their TP races up to 100.

If a THF does not stack WS, they are comparatively garbage. So we become limited to 2 Job abilities, dependant on difficult to fulfil positional restrictions at times, that can only be used once per minute to even DREAM of putting out a WS that is on a respectable level. This creates a very serious gap between other DD's and THF, which widens exponentially at higher levels of haste.

So yes, I happen to think that these spike damage abilities should give just that. Spike damage.

Quote:

---

So your having a Q.Q that WAR are getting a JA that they would get with /THF natively

---

Well, first off, not having to sub THF to get it is pretty absurd, since that was the trade off. You sacrafice a sub with obviously superior damage output potential, but you get a 100% acc forced crit WS once a minute, with a hate transfer option.

Second, this is better than /TH becuase there are no positional restrictions attatched to it. Meaning that no matter what is going on, whether you are tanking or not, whether you are pulling hate or not, you can ride the timer for this JA. That. Shit. Is. Busted.

Quote:

---

Comments like that is where I was getting my aforementioned statement from. People Q.Q'ing that their damage does not compare to a WAR.

---

Ah...I see the misunderstanding here. You are mistaking what I think spike damage should be for these 60 second cooldown job abilities for thinking that my Damage should compare to a WAR. These are very different ideas.

Quote:

---

THF still plays a role in hate control.

---

No it doesn't

Quote:

---

As for TA & hate control - Yes of course it has to do with DAMAGE as you put. Learn to increase that damage with modifiers. As mentioned above - has a much less of a point in Abyssea but can still be used efficiently in areas like Voidwatch

---

.

No it can't

Quote:

---

Hmmm, I think I seem to be missing something here, what is WHM a specialist for? Healing. What is a BLM a specialist for? Nuking. PLD? Tanking..

What about THF? oh yes right... to get our loot to drop! TREASURE HUNTER!

If you want to play a different role we come back to the original point here - level a different job!

---

Well, I want seals to drop, I can perform that role better on BLM/BRD. If I want Armor, I can change to a job with more Blue Triggers and perfrom that role better. If I want Key Items, I can chance to NIN and do that better. I can go to voidwatch with better trigger jobs and not use a THF at all...I probably won't either because that TH boost to lights was a joke.

Treasure Hunter is third string. They added weakness triggers to abyssea, then voidwatch, and then dynamis. Does it seem to you like this is going away? Because it seems to me like TH becomes less and less relevant with each new endgame content they roll out as long as you have your weakness trigger jobs in place.

Quote:

---

My point is that for virtually every job, when filling a role, the 1st thing you look for is who is better at the job and that difference is skill based. For thf, you ask "Who has TH6?".

---

What kind of retards are you guys using to support your argument? Melee is even more gear dependent and less skill dependent than THF. Lack of difference between two people with TH6 is a fault of the TH augment system more than THF's general melee capabilities.

When you ask who is better at melee, it's not just SAM1 v SAM2. It's WAR v SAM v DRG v DRK v RNG v MNK v PUP? v BST. Furthermore, when you do get an equal comparison, it's who has better gear. Sound familiar?!

Oddly enough, if you turn that same question into "better at making normal items drop outside proc!! areas", THF monopolizes this position even more than WAR monopolizes the melee position because a melee with decent gear will usurp the position of a terribly geared WAR. Conversely no amount of gear will place my DRG or any other melee ahead of THF for drops where proc!! are irrelevant. Even then, the situations where this is true are dwindling rapidly. Even when at their peak, it just meant THF was no longer supreme in all aspects (Though still monopolizing the "TH maker" role in some situations).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nebo

WAR + PDT/MDT sets

---

You heard it here folks! Only WAR can use PDT+MDT sets even though THF has better access to MDT than WAR. The only point you got correct in that post was the proc!! system undermining TH for VW, but most complaints in this thread don't echo that as much as they complain about WAR (Which is a problem of WAR, not a fault of THF since almost every class can point to WAR at this point and scream overpowered).

Also, as it currently stands, the utility of blue!! is diminishing without a means of returning (Unless SE brings us back to Abyssea). Meanwhile, the value of TH increases as Empyreans become the standard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

THF Was originally intended to be a DD. I don't know if you've noticed Job traits like Assassin, and Triple Attack, or Abilities like Sneak Attack, and Trick attack, or Massive boosts to Haste/DD stats on our Empyrean. THF from the beginning was a DPS/DD job. The problem is since level 75 the gap between THF and other DD has widened substantionally. We're asking the gap be lessened a bit.

---

Going by the original traits, THF was actually designed to collect items and escape more than DD.

JA
Sneak Attack <=> Steal
Trick Attack <=> Mug
Pick Treasure Coffers
Hide + Flee + Perfect Dodge => Escape mechanisms used in conjunction with Steal/Mug

Traits
Gilfinder <=> Triple Attack
TH1 <=> Assassin (Wasn't even an original trait; was added later)
TH2
A total of 8 Evasion Bonus/Resist Gravity Traits

So no, THF was actually skewed towards obtaining items and escaping (Often times, stuff that went hand-in-hand). Even more evident by the level on Striders.

Quote:

---

Going by the original traits, THF was actually designed to collect items and escape more than DD.

JA
Sneak Attack <=> Steal
Trick Attack <=> Mug
Pick Treasure Coffers
Hide + Flee + Perfect Dodge => Escape mechanisms used in conjunction with Steal/Mug

Traits
Gilfinder <=> Triple Attack
TH1 <=> Assassin (Wasn't even an original trait; was added later)
TH2
A total of 8 Evasion Bonus/Resist Gravity Traits

So no, THF was actually skewed towards obtaining items and escaping (Often times, stuff that went hand-in-hand). Even more evident by the level on Striders.

---

The Existence of Non-DD abilities does not denote the Idea is was intended to be a DD.

Yes, we had abilities designed to Steal/escape, But they weren't what we were designed to do in parties. I'm quite sure SE didn't intend for THFs to use Flee and hide during a exp party and run in circles, right?

Gilfinder/TH can arguably help an exp party in some small way if you're fighting beastmen or mobs that drop decent items, But its clear these traits were designed for big game.

Also, Hide actually allows you to Sneak Attack from any direction, that had DD implications too. The existence of traits that fit classic THF (Steal, Mug) does not mean its role was not suppose to be a DD. I don't deny SE had other plans for THF than simply a DD, But a DD they were.

Its just today the gap between a Good THF and a Good WAR has widened to a point where the THF is largely undermined as a DD and defaults to TH whore. Closing the gap a tad won't nerf other jobs or make them less desirable.

my point being, THF in a party situation was designed as a DD, with implications toward Enmity control (TA). Their JT obviously role-play the job, but i don't think they were what SE intended the job to do in parties or endgame. I think their role was originally a DD, in fact i think their old Manifesto said that, to the point they were thinking of buffing Perfect Dodge to, when active, your attacks would do more damage from behind.

Their plans changed clearly, But it doesn't change the point at one point, earlier in the games life, We were designed as a DD, and a TH whore, where as today its just TH whore.

We're only asking for the gap in DD to be closed a little. That and if you read my other posts I'm leaning more towards useful utility anyway, Already plenty of DD..

Also

Quote:

---

What kind of retards are you guys using to support your argument?

---

One bad egg on either side of the argument does not invalidate the argument itself. Most of us here know that each job is judged by their gear.

however, I'd be lying if, back in the day when i had TH3 only, that i wasn't asked to switch jobs because i didnt have TH4.

I'd be asked to change jobs to WAR or something so the TH4 THF in denali Bonnet and DEX rings could be on THF, despite my THF having far superior DD gear and would help us kill quicker. So a far inferior THF whos only marketable skill was owning 2 pieces of Armor and being completely gimp and useless in every other field was desired over a THF with TH3 even if that THF was perfect in every other field.

You could be a Mandau THF with perfect HQ Gear, and if you didn't have TH4? you were switching jobs to let a TH4 THF take your place.

I know his point, Even though its worded wrongly, It still a little F*cked up.

Edit:

Also i feel i should once again bring up that I've accepted our role as a DD will remain mediocre, and have come to terms with it. Despite still deep down wanting our power to be a little higher than it is.

I think giving THF some real uses/Utility that actually contribute to a fight isn't that big of a Catastrophe is it? Will the GD game shut down the second a THF can do something meaningful in a fight outside of hitting it and going AFK?

All i want is a reason to be in a party outside of TH. You and everyone else reading knows a THF's place in FFXI. We hit the mob, and we go the Fk away. Its how it was at 75, its how it is now (out of Abyssea), and on our current "Vision" Path, Its how it will be at 99.

We are useless in a Endgame situation outside of Loot, and perhaps Killing ourselves (A.K.A Saccing).

When a job has no uses outside of TH, and the only other thing your party can think of having you do is killing yourself again and again *sac pulls* than theres something wrong with the job. I don't feel I'm asking too much. Give us some abilities that really make us contribute.

This all seems rather meaningless when the Devs think Aura Steal on anything lower than 5 minutes would break the game, if they feel something like that is too powerful for THF we're all fked and we may as well just switch jobs like its been suggested, because this job is going nowhere and you may as well leave the "FFXI TH-Whore" to the Linkshell Mules like it was at 75.