You miss understand. I had a lot of friends I wanted to help level up, and a lot of players who I just enjoyed helping because I liked their playstyle. The Cap is nothing, just like your relics are nothing. Crying to the Dev team and suggesting that Relics should be the end all is exactly what you are describing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoko
Me? I've tried to desynth the damn thing more times than I can count. I treat it like the new mentor status, anyone wearing it I immediately assume is an idiot that has no idea what they are doing and will only spout misinformation.
EDIT: Also I have 90 Ukon, a 85 Masamune with 32 days of playtime, and a 85 Masamune with 17 days of playtime that is skilled and has already tanked most of t1-t2 abyssea.
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03-29-2011, 03:06 AMDidgist
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03-29-2011, 03:12 AMShokoYou also sound like a person with a lot time on his hands than the "average player". The average player will never see over 20~30 million gil without extending his/her play time in some manner, buying gil or cheating or a combination of the 3. However, some are willing to make the effort without doing the latter two options; there should be no reason why SE shouldn't alleviate some of the cost/requirements of Relic/Mythic when:Quote:
Originally Posted by Didgist
A) No one does Dynamis/Salvage anymore because Empyrean outright outclass Relic/Mythic.
or
B) No one can justify farming gil for a Relic/Mythic because of A).
Relics are easy to make indeed, but it's a huge waste of time at the moment. Mythics are just a grand waste of time overall (and I should know, I stopped midway on finishing mine because of the alexandrite cost vs just finishing an Almace, which I did). -
03-29-2011, 03:29 AMDidgistI agree completely with mythics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoko
ToAU has been abandoned and the variety of content you need to complete, while easy due to being level 90-99, is still a very large workload. Barring Yagrush or Andervlyneanchan whatevers 12 Ryunohiges it's not worth it.
However, it has never been difficult to farm gil in this game. A player with average gear could make 1 mil in 3-4 hours of playtime, give or take. Who doesn't have 3-6 x60 hours to invest that actually plays this game at endgame level?
The majority of whatever excessive playtime I must posses was used to help people exp because I simply enjoy a good party that works well and overcomes challenges. This is the point I was trying to make. I enjoyed exp'ing and made a lot of effort to be good at it, and I have a crappy piece that used to be 1% better in situations that I didn't even know or care about to show for it. Anything earned in this game that people actually enjoyed contributing to should have this attitude towards it.
Personally I love seeing pieces with 8 INT like Tungas hat, or pieces like Twilight helm that absolutely destroy Maat's Cap. It makes me laugh thinking about all the drama, stress, and bannings that happened in Korolokka because of poor idiots who (case in point) thought they should get it because it was 1% better.
EDIT: I forgot Kenkonken. What it does for PUP is comparable to an Amano that does 18k Kaitens under a 10 level penalty. -
03-29-2011, 03:50 AMShokoI finally see where you're getting at now. Personally, I've never had a problem making gil because I always played my Alchemy and Leathercrafting up when it was beneficial to make gil after updates (then days where having an Ebisu was an amazing money maker). However, that can't be said for all others, esp those without LSes or non-social people that prefer to make gil on their own, but unable to find an effective gil maker for their time put in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Didgist
Look again as well; you find it hilarious that there is gear now that outclasses Maat's Cap in various ways, but what about early 2009?
I personally never would have thought the level cap would be raised past 75, much less even 80 or 85. Now everyone is rolling in multiple lvl 90 jobs, some with [multiple] emp weapons and everything is easy and cake (for the most part, for higher end players) Makes playing with the idea in mind that they have something big in store for making this portion of endgame just a bit easier, rather than worry about relics/mythics being easier to obtain. Actually if you think about it, as the level cap rises, you won't see many people with the higher level versions of the relic/mythic/emp weapon anyways, despite having the level 75/80/85 version (example, obtaining a level 90 weapon in a small task to overcome in itself, and many have simply stopped at the 85 version for the time being). I'm sure SE will make obtaining lvl 95~99 in your weapon(s) of choice a nice difficulty. -
03-29-2011, 04:08 AMDidgistQuote:
Originally Posted by Shoko
Yes, a million times what you first said. You found a niche, and instead of finding one that was an exploit (sup salvage bans) you found one that had a proactive impact on your character and the community itself. You inscreased the skill of your character and created things for people to buy, sell, and use for their own advancement.
One of the oldest and most endearing stories in Vana'diel lore is the story of the Tasaijin.
I will give you the short version. Someone discovers the first Refresh scroll by completing a newly implemented BC40
FAR before his peers. When people see him or try to buy the scroll from him, he tells them "I found it on a Taisai". People all across the game flood Ranguemont and fight bitterly for hours trying to claim Taisai that will never drop Refresh. This is why Taisaijin NM was added, and has a totally useless drop. That's the story anyways.
This is the whole point of new content. Real or Vana, the world changes quickly and it belongs to those who chose to suffer great losses and ridicule in the name of pioneering and discovering things for themselves. For a very short period of time this gives them a claim to fame but then are quickly outdated.
Maat's Cap was a joke before 60-75 exp was changed, and this was when Bibiki and Sky were the uber endgame content/leveling grounds and we still didn't know what Sea was or how to get enough people in to it to do anything. Relics became a joke as soon as people started buying them outright using illicit means, completely trivializing the whole process.
For years everything that was in the game, and even content being added now is trivial. My whole reason for posting originally was because players who spent way too long incorrectly obtaining a goal that is only marginally better at best do not need to be catered to and honestly represent a very small, confused, and disappointing group of players.
In 15 minutes, everybody will be famous. -
03-29-2011, 04:36 AMShoko
Hah, always love Tasaijin story, thanks for that. And it's unfortunate, but there will always be someone who will cheat for that marginal benefit, that's just human nature. You just have to learn to not worry about them, and do for you what makes you happy. I like to reminisce about those old sky days vs Aura Weapons just like you it seems. Days are no more, but we can hope for a challenging future in FFXI. :P
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03-29-2011, 05:00 AMDidgist
When Bibiki became the big 60+ leveling grounds I was a 63 RDM. I vaguely remember them giving me free exp up to capping the level I was at when they changed the amount from 60-75. My friend at the time Grimace had BLM and WHM to 75 at this point, and I view that accomplishment trumps anything I have done in this game. The people who were there at the time and make the initial breakthroughs are the only people who would reserve any right to have their accomplishments protected and they gladly understood that this is not how things work. At all.
No one was there when Magni finished Gjallyhorn and took a LS that only a handful of Japanese players on Fenrir remember to kill Vrtra for the first time. You were level 10 dying to Tremor Rams. Or hadn't even played. Or started at PS2 North American release and instantly complained about how the JP aren't automatically helping you get everything you want. While most of us were having our romantic first steps into the Vana' world, others were perched at the limits waiting to tackle new content immediately.
Everything the current community had as far as progression was done, overdone, and ridiculed by the time the majority of American posters even merited one job. This isn't an American VS EU VS JP comment either. There were players who flew through content so quickly that they monopolized endgame content before there was competition. I wouldn't doubt that a good portion of them were sitting right here in the states or anywhere in the world for that matter playing Japanese copies of the game.
What about their accomplishments? They killed everything in the game without wiki, haste caps, enmity discussions, or 8 years of the insane amount of knowledge players have compiled themselves about the game. This entire thread is about how people want already exploited trivialized and long long since proven minimal improvements to their characters to trump going out and completing new content. Content that is breathing new life into the game and utilizing every aspect of battle in an intelligent and fun way while offering more ways to help every player improve their character.
What's really funny is with Dynamis patches there will be no way to say your relic is so hard to make anymore. You won't be able to whine and have an argument that everyone should pity you for not having a top tier piece and condemn the dev team for doing something right for once. We will all make relics within 2-3 months and even though they are now more powerful than empyreans, they will be a joke to get and people will bash you and tell you to stop using old accomplishments to validate you being a top tier player. Everyone will have it and you will be jealous and feel forsaken by your god, the Sqaure...Enix..Dev..I mean come on.
Thankfully I know better. -
03-29-2011, 05:01 AMMcFlurry
Without reading 17+ pages of the merits of relics/mythics/empyreans, this is my take. (caveat: I have none of the above for any job.)
I started playing nearly two years ago. I got my first 75 about 3 months before the first level cap increase. I read about the relic weapons and drooled massively, before finding the requirements. I don't make a lot of gil, so I thought I'd concentrate on getting all the relic gear for DRG (which I did, bar the belt). I was in a gilshare Dynamis LS, with the option of getting currency. So I looked up how much currency was on bazaars and how many I needed, and I gave up hope there and then.
I've not even looked at Mythics, but I hear they take more effort than Relics.
Just now, I'm working on Empyrean, and as I write this I'm at 6/8 on Chesma, which is the last NM harvest before I choose whether to go WoE or Chloris buds etc.
My point is that everything should be attainable to all who play the game, not just those who have hours to play, and have shells that spend their lives in Abyssea/Dynamis/whatever. If the updates allow some people to get relics easier than before, then great - I suspect SE's focus currently is to try and retain players and attract new players on a game that can't have too many years left in it. This doesn't lessen the worth of any achievements that long time players have obtained - there's pride that can't be replaced there. For my money, I did about half of CoP before the level cap was lifted for those missions, yet now I can solo the Promyvions - I don't mind in the slightest. CoP was damn hard and took a long time to get to where I did, but I know and cherish the memory that I was among those who did at least some of it when it required a lot of work.
If I get a relic from Dynamis fully upgraded, it will still be an achievement for me, even if I do achieve an Empyrean, and at the end of the day, whatever is done in game makes up your level of personal satisfaction. If you're not satisfied with what you've achieved/will achieve, what's the point in playing?
/ramble off -
03-29-2011, 05:18 AMDidgistI agree with you and a lot of players with your mindset go unaccounted for. It's unfortunate that people who are confused are feeding the dev team misinformation about what players want. Most of us like the simple pleasures and aren't in a hurry. Everyone who wants to swing a stick is swinging a very old and used one.Quote:
Originally Posted by McFlurry
People will whine and tell you that it was their right and only their right to have a _________ because they did __________ with __________ and only had __________ and _________ was ___________ cause they were in the same LS and __________ was _______ about ________ qq. It's cute. -
03-30-2011, 12:01 AMTempo
Two of my weapons are very happy with this news about time aswell :D
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03-31-2011, 12:34 AMDrStrangeloveNope, that's not what this thread is about. Although you'd like it to be about that since it would make it easy for you to argue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Didgist
1) relics and mythics were not obtained through exploitation. Although how AMAZING it is that you use that word when people are soloing drop mobs in abyssea to complete their empyrean.
2) relics and mythics weren't trivialized until SE chose to introduce weapons that could be obtained with 1/50th effort while doing 35%+ more damage.
3) people with relics and mythics are doing new content. Although it might work for your argument if empyrean weapons were the ONLY things added since March, 2010, let me share this with you: it wasn't. We're all getting new gear!
Let me help you with another weak point you've made in several posts. Maats cap is a great achievement (although easier than relics as evidenced that 10x as many people have it as opposed to a relic, and clearly much easier than mythics, but a grand achievement nonetheless.) However, Maats cap was obtained by leveling jobs that are still leveled. It's value to some jobs is what it was before: it's still the best in some circumstances.
The effort to obtain relics an mythics is gone. No one has their currency still to buy more weapons. No one who did 6,500 kill shots before has those given back to them as credit for other weapons. Moreover for most if not all relics they were but are no longer the best weapon.
Sorry your Maats cap example is not where near correct, so drop that one. The investment in Maats cap is still there; the value is still there. The investment of effort for relics and mythics is gone. In it's place people have a weapon that is easily outclassed by weapons people are getting in a week which devalues it further.
Now, you should realize this thread is about the loss of a tremendous amount of effort that individuals invested due to a decision to make superior content available at a fraction of the effort. -
03-31-2011, 12:43 AMDrStrangeloveReally?Quote:
Originally Posted by McFlurry
1) everyone should have 20 level 90's even if they are unwilling or unable to level?
2) everyone should have 50 million gil even if they don't feel like working for it?
3) everyone should have 8 million cruor and a full set of +2 gear for all their jobs even if they don't have time?
If you feel that way, shouldn't you just start a thread asking SE to create an NPC that will insta raise your jobs to 90, give you 8 mm cruor and 50 million gil and all the completed relics, mythics and empyreans you can carry?
Do you also believe people who want to be doctors should get that title without studying or practicing medicine? Do you think people who come to work late, miss deadlines and put out reports with typos and math errors should get top bonuses and promoted to president?
I don't. Almost no one does. But a lot of people who don't want to make any effort would like to open up a game, have a character just as good as everyone else with all the same gear and be able to play from time to time. They have games like that called first person shooters (FPS.) It's probably what some people should play instead of an MMO. -
03-31-2011, 02:04 AMUnctgtgIts actually 9500 killshotsQuote:
Originally Posted by DrStrangelove
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03-31-2011, 02:32 AMRambus
give you an idea, with new count, it took me 3 RL days ( not 3 days of consistent playing) to do first one at 75 to being done at 85, how long did your 9500 total you?
then again sam/war with a SCH alt would do it pretty fast.
just be carful not to solo sc killshot mob -.- -
03-31-2011, 07:20 AMMcFlurryAnd this is the problem with a lot of people on the game. Because yes, this is a game. To address your numbered points, I said attainable, not handed out for free. Yes, an MMO requires effort and some hard work, and such hard work shouldn't go unrewarded. However, there has to be a balance offered for players of all ability and commitment. If someone wants to start playing the game then they can almost go ahead and do what you've suggested - that's what Abyssea is for. We all know a char can be leeched up to 90 in a couple of days - but how does that undermine anything that you've done? You know you achieved your level 90 through traditional parties or soloing, and that gives you some pride, but what right does that give you to want to take away the new easier methods of levelling?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrStrangelove
The same argument can be applied to almost anything in the game. SE (or whoever) don't create games just for the hardcore MMO player with 100 hours a week or more to spend on a game. FFXI seems to have been like this for many a long year, and now that SE are coming up with new stuff that's more powerful than pre-existing items, yet takes a fraction of the time - so? If you treat this game like a job, then you're playing it for the wrong reasons. If you enjoyed the number of fights/length of time it took to get a relic, then great. Don't try and take pleasure away from new people who have achieved something in a fraction of the time it took you just because you're bitter.
I'll say again, this is a game. Games are for entertainment - not a job. And finally, stop being so elitist. -
03-31-2011, 07:35 AMUnctgtg
Actually took me awhile, as I went to school and worked full time as well.
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04-15-2011, 02:03 AMSama
Apoc90 [Do you need it?] [Sale] 100g pst
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04-15-2011, 05:45 AMDuzell
There is an exception to this rule, the DRG Polearm legendary weapons. the order for those goes Mythic > Relic > Empyrian, Calaman's Torment.... yea.... Drakesbane is still #1.
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04-15-2011, 08:50 PMUnctgtg
Hey SE, are we planning on seeing the Relic buff this update in a few weeks?
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04-16-2011, 04:01 AMZeroth
Well, SE tweeted:
We're planning to enhance Aegis in the next major version update in order to balance it with the new and powerful Ochain!
So leaves one to believe they would also be making the changes to relics and mythics as well? -
04-16-2011, 04:05 AMRambusI know how much time it can take to shuffle though all the pages, the thing with relic shield is that it needs more then MDT boosting (it caps, very easy to get, and that is why it is outclassed badly)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroth
but here is SE rep replay to this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildrein
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04-16-2011, 08:11 PMDreimar
Most relic weapons are worthless, they always be, exept 2-3 maybe ( Bow - Horn - Shield ? ) and already got some boost no?
Off course the effort getting one of those cant be compared to an Empyrean ( Dozens millions Gil - competition finding enough coins - months of shouting and such ). Solution : next version update all relics weapons will get a minimum of 200 Base damage ( including Horn!! )! Doing so i wish to not have to see again people quit 1 week after completing one of those. -
05-07-2011, 11:17 AMUnctgtg
Bump for SE to see this again for Monday and for Returner1 since he asked me to bump it
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05-10-2011, 02:19 AMUnctgtg
Guess SE forgot????
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05-10-2011, 02:36 AMSama
Down supporting this.
SE needs to give us an answer: either confirm we (the relic owners) are stupid losers or they will do something about it.
Or just say you won't do nothing that is all for relic then we know we are the big L. -
05-10-2011, 03:59 AMAtomic_Skull
Aegis and Burtgang were updated so that their -magic and -physical damage break the 50% cap. If they had updated any of the other relic or mythic weapons it would have been mentioned in the update notes along with this.
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05-10-2011, 04:04 AMFeliciaa
Figured it was too good to be true. Maybe they said they would make Relic and Mythic weapons stronger just to get people to stop talking about it. lol
Although... Changing Dynamis but still having Relics be very weak compared to an Emp. Weapon kind of makes the whole thing pointless, so maybe they just did not post any notes on it.... >.> -
05-10-2011, 04:21 AMVoldThey've already mentioned they are adjusting relics/mythics/empyreans in the future. What more do you want? They can't do everything by yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sama
Seriously people. You're starting to sound like a broken record. As if they are going to stop everything they are doing to make the FEW RELIC OWNERS THAT EXIST IN COMPARISON TO THE MASSES happy today instead of later. You waited so very long to obtain these weapons. Why is the wait so unbearable now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildrein
BTW lol at Burtgang adjustment out of all the possible choices that would have been better. The probable two people that own it are rejoicing on this day -.- -
05-10-2011, 04:55 AMFeliciaa
IF relic/mythic weapons are not buffed to compete with Emps this update lets hope that means the team is putting some serious thought on ways to even the playing field between all 3 weapons and the new relics created from Dynamis Reborn won't end up being just Trophy items.
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05-10-2011, 05:05 AMFutan
Based on the Goad items from the .DAT mines, it looks like there will be another trial. I very much doubt it will level the playing field, but it's wait-and-see for now.
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05-10-2011, 05:10 AMAtomic_Skullhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/goadQuote:
Originally Posted by Futan
Judging from the name those are probably just pop items for NMs. If a magian trial was involved then there would have been new .dats for them. None of the relic .dats were updated so any changes would have been made to existing weapons as was done with Burtgang and Aegis. And that would have been in the update notes along with the changes to Aegis and Burtgang. -
05-10-2011, 05:16 AMFutanOh yeah. Forgot they were making them pop NMs. :xQuote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
And about the relic .dats not changing, my line of thinking was that since the level cap isn't changing, they just put augments on them like they did the early trials. -
05-10-2011, 06:36 AMSamaEveryone saw that but nothing is firm; it has been sooooo long since aby out and people who started this game two weeks ago are now having a emp wpn which out dmg a fighter jet in real life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vold
Along with all other relic/mythic owners, i feel disappointingly upseting and stupid; except the 'indication of dedication'.
Of cause the moderator/dev knows that, regardless whether they are working on it or not, I just want to express our thoughts. -
05-11-2011, 08:53 PMUnctgtg
Hey SE, I love the increase in Aegis, I just hope you follow that up with some awesome new changes to relics. Can we get an idea when you plan on doing this.
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05-12-2011, 01:49 AMSama(J/K)Quote:
Originally Posted by Unctgtg
The plan will take place in the near future update and requirement is as follow:
Base Condition -
1. After everyone gets an empyrean weapon
2. After about 30% of total population get a relic weapon
Prerequisite -
Relic-reborn prerequisite quests:
1. 50 corresponding testy
2. 50 corresponding fragments
3. Defeat DL 16 times.
Upgrade Trials -
10 trials, 2000 kill-shot each on xp yielding monster WITHIN Dyna area.
After all trials have been completed players will be able to unleash equal amount of damage as of a empyrean weapon weapon-skill.
TYVM you will not have time to sleep or eat for the next 4-5 years. Cg obtaining your apoc.
(j/k) -
05-12-2011, 03:02 PMAtomic_Skull
I just noticed something about the mog bonanza.
Anyone notice that lvl 90 relics *and* 10k unit currencies are both on the prize list? I can't think of a logical reason for this unless...
What if they are planning on making the 90-99 upgrades for relics and empyreans require a 10k unit currency? -
05-12-2011, 05:54 PMAlukatthan they have to fix the droprate >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
before update it was like:
every 3rd day one dynamis with 150-400+ currencys in 3 1/2 hour (best i saw was 950 in a single run).
(based on a complete ls farming them)
now it is this way:
in 3 days roughly 150 currencys in 6 hours.
(if u have luck and 1 100 drops)
tbh i have no idea how this should make relics easier. -
05-12-2011, 06:03 PMAtomic_SkullI don't think it was meant to make them easier, I think it was meant to thwart people from buying their Relics with gil. Someone at SE apparently didn't like the idea of people upgrading a relic solo by making gil elsewhere and then buying all their currency from bazaars and only setting foot in Dynamis to merc the base weapon, Attestation and Fragment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukat
Before you could farm craft etc. and then buy currency from Dynamis LS's. Now you won't be able to do that, you'll have to farm with an alliance if you want to amass large amounts of currency.
I think that in the devs eyes, people had warped their concept of Relics where a group cooperates to make a single weapon. Instead you had a lot of people who were upgrading relics all by themselves by doing activities that had nothing to do with Relics or Dynamis and SE decided to put a stop to it. -
05-12-2011, 06:13 PMAlukat
well, i made an own ls to farm the currencys for mandau. took me 1 1/2 year. if that really should be their plan it would take almost 5-10 ,or even many more, years to get it done (except there are some things to make 100's drop what we don't know yet), with the same number of ppl.
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05-12-2011, 08:47 PMAtomic_SkullIf you get 1 100 per run it will take you 188 runs. You won't be lowmanning relics in a reasonable amount of time but a large LS can probably do one in about a year to a year and a half going 3 times a week assuming they get a couple 100's each time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukat
Assuming SE was serious about fixing relics *and* they make them actually worth the time invested then I don't have a problem with that. We don't need to turn every single thing in the game into something you can do in a week with a couple people.