If RDM and SCH can't have Cure 5, give us Afflatus Misery/Solace

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I don't think that would make it a viable sub job

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Yeah, you're probably right. On the plus side when level cap hits 99, SMN subjob will have access to hastega. That's a huge deal considering SCH already can do aoe stone skin and phalanx.... well would be a huge deal if people cared for aoe haste still.

SMN Hastega lasts too short at subjob level ;( Waste of MP.

If RDM got Cure V I'd relevel my WHM mules so they were useful again.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

And if you do get your ass handed to you, those two strats will help you raise an entire party solo without having to wait for recasts.

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when did this happen? i never got that memo...

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Originally Posted by Sama

Would RDM + Cure V make WHM unemployed?

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Less vital, I'm sure, but I think White Mage would retain a place in the imaginary community of imaginary jobs that make up Vana'diel's imaginary monster-slaying workforce.

Assuming all jobs can cap eventually Cure Potency (seems like a safe assumption) and thus ideal equipment (although I'm low-balling a bit on the end result, because I don't know the exact number for all jobs and for the point I want to make it's fine if White Mage's extra 50 to 100-ish HP healed is not included):

Red Mage - Cure V - 135 MP - 1050 HP restored

Scholar - Cure V - 121 MP (Light Arts) - 1189 HP restored (Light Weather)

White Mage - Cure V - 83 MP (if the full amount of HP is restored) - 1050 HP restored - 367 Stoneskin

There's a lot of stuff that affects casting time and recast, so I'll just say that all three of these jobs are really good at reducing casting time in their own ways and that's the reason Blue Mage isn't in this running. White Mage probably has the longest recasts by a small amount, and Scholar would have a miserable cast time if Rapture were to be included.

This doesn't take things like the jobs subbing each other, Light Weather being usable on other folks, or MP recovery abilities into account, but on paper White Mage is clearly ahead when repeatedly curing people in Voidwatch and similarly difficult content.

I'll readily admit that all three would be pretty much the same for marathon content like NeoDynamis, with Red Mage winning out against the fodder, White Mage winning out against the few challenging things that pop up, and Scholar being better at neither yet somehow inspiring complaints from everybody because Scholar produces the highest numbers in the chat log.

For Abyssea, I don't know. There's such a variance in content and buffs there that I can't even guess. MP recovery is as irrelevant there as anything else. Really, the only thing that would make you run out of MP is going on Red Mage to repeatedly cast Cure V while also casting Blizzard IV at every opportunity.

As for my personal feelers:

A big part of it is that I see most not-Voidwatch content as something a bro or bro-ette should be able to grab a smattering of friends and do as long as basic roles are filled, and that's currently true in all aspects except for healing. Healing in new content is often White Mage or bust. Abyssea is a glaring example of this at work.

In my ideal world, though, White Mage would have gotten meaningful healing growth along with a useful Cure VI and everyone with Cure progression would have Cure V or some unique healing spell that fits each job. I'd rather everybody have something good than one bro have something of dubious use and everyone else have nothing.

after seeing that i realize it would be kind of ridiculous to have c5 on sch with rapture and light weather going

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Originally Posted by Sira

after seeing that i realize it would be kind of ridiculous to have c5 on sch with rapture and light weather going

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Yeah, the ability to cure more HP than someone has through cumbersome spells and abilities rather than providing a Stoneskin effect by clicking one button every half-hour or so is pretty epic.

could still cure more than whm with just rapture, which with how we are borderlined forced to use now, wouldnt change much with the addition of cure 5, we've been using rapture and we will continue using rapture (when needed) if sch were to get cure 5.

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Originally Posted by Soranika

Yeah, you're probably right. On the plus side when level cap hits 99, SMN subjob will have access to hastega. That's a huge deal considering SCH already can do aoe stone skin and phalanx.... well would be a huge deal if people cared for aoe haste still.

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LOL why in gods name would anyone sub /smn for sch, that has got to be the dumbest thing ever, no matter what /smn gets subed nothing can ever make it appealing. they are fine as /rdm and in some sitations /blm even /whm has uses if you are purely support/healing only for haste mainly. it's bad enough whms sub rdm.

But back on topic this crap will never end,

WHM's primary job is to HEAL AND SUPPORT why the hell do people keep trying to make it useless by asking for their traits if you want cure 5 PLAY WHITE MAGE for crying out loud, rdm is not ment to fully keep everyone cured, neither is SCH they are made to be hybrids how many times do we have to keep going to this "waaa i want cure 5 because i want my hybrid job to be better then the jobs that are meant to do it mainly"

its not only just the potency of the spell, its the hate values that are tagged on cure 4

and by that knowledge of what you are saying, sch should stop curing, and hell nuking since they are evidently inferior to blm as well, and if we wanted to nuke we should be playing blm. i love your logic.

We're still at square 1 with this discussion.
I don't think anybody denies the fact that (especially by the time level 99 will be out) RDM and SCH need something stronger than Cure IV to add to their arsenal, for several reasons which have all been explained in this thread.

At the same time though, giving them Cure V might be "a bit too much", and that's because there's too wide of a gap between CIV and CV.



There aren't many solutions here. Either they create a new spell especially for RDM or SCH (which is unlikely imho) or they give them a gimped CV, similar to what happens to some JAs that get gimped when used by other jobs/subs.

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Originally Posted by Sira

and hell nuking since they are evidently inferior to blm as well

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It's situational to what you have to do (SCH has issues with AoE spells etc) but altough it requires much more effort in skills and gear compared to BLM, SCH can actually be as good or even better than BLM if we're talking about damage throughput and mana spent.

Or at least things used to be that way at level 75, you can find many competent player in both jobs saying it. Doubt things have changed that much at 90, aside from obvious differences in JAs (mana wall for example) and AoE spells.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

It's situational to what you have to do (SCH has issues with AoE spells etc) but altough it requires much more effort in skills and gear compared to BLM, SCH can actually be as good or even better than BLM if we're talking about damage throughput and mana spent.

Or at least things used to be that way at level 75, you can find many competent player in both jobs saying it. Doubt things have changed that much at 90, aside from obvious differences in JAs (mana wall for example) and AoE spells.

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Thing you have to understand is that people don't like jobs that require to much thinking, they want the one macro solves all jobs in order to function is this game, which is why people keep crying over cure 5, it's the same problem with sch vs blm, sch actually does MORE damage then blm with exact same nukes but they need to prep the spell which requires thinking, all people want is every thing handed to them, but every so often there will always be some person whining that things are not easy enough for them.

Yes but aside from discussions concerning who's stronger between SCH and BLM, the thing is that either way they're pretty close, even if SCH were a bit worse, the difference wouldn't be huge.
Can the same be said for WHM and SCH? And the answer is no of course, and it's the point of what people have been saying in this thread so far.

I think it's easy to understand the concerns of who doesn't want to see C5 given to other classes, but at the same time it should be easy for the other side of the fence to understand that C4 is not enough, period. And we go back to my previous post on page 18 :D

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Yes but aside from discussions concerning who's stronger between SCH and BLM, the thing is that either way they're pretty close, even if SCH were a bit worse, the difference wouldn't be huge.
Can the same be said for WHM and SCH? And the answer is no of course, and it's the point of what people have been saying in this thread so far.

I think it's easy to understand the concerns of who doesn't want to see C5 given to other classes, but at the same time it should be easy for the other side of the fence to understand that C4 is not enough, period. And we go back to my previous post on page 18 :D

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Well i agree that cure IV is not enough most of the time, but giving them cure 5 is redundent they already said they would look into giving them a "stronger" cure, but not exactly cure 5 maybe this is one of those things that should just be waited out, as a Main whm, i absolutly disped the 75 days where peopel were saying whm was useless etc because all you needed was a rdm/whm to solve everything, i am GLAD they fixed that issue and now we have the rdm whining that they want that over powerdness back, well to bad.

The only thing that bothers me about sch is stratagems not having aoe options for elemental magic ( i mean come on, the guy in the AF hat fight can do them). i imagine the MP cost with be absurd but i think it would work.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

This is a massive matter of opinion. Considering that /SCH is better for MP usage for any job, the only people that would be hurt by losing /RDM convert would be Black Mages trying to keep Manawall up, not White Mages that everyone seems to love to hate on the forums.

I know that it isn't sub usable because of job restrictions, not because of other restrictions, but Composure is a much more useful ability then Convert, but it isn't subable because it is at the just out of reach level 50.

If you don't want Convert to be sub usable, I suggest we switch the levels at which Red Mage gets Composure and Convert. I'll take Composure from /RDM any day over Convert. If you think this is a horrible idea and a bad trade, that's because it is - Composure is Red Mage's non-sub usable ability.

All that said, I think that Convert is due for a buff - a 10-20% bonus of HP/MP converted would be a nice job trait for Red Mage to get at higher levels, but wouldn't replace the effect on the Red Mage Mythic.

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Hmm. You DON'T need to have at least one JA from each job, the proof is in NIN and WHM who give you no real JA's and if you want to compare Divine Seal with Convert it's lacklustre at best.

Fact of the matter is Convert was one of RDM's biggest buffs outside of Composure, and I'm fine with subjobs getting it, but they should NOT have got it at the same potency. It's a subjob so it should have been half the potency like with most the JA's.

Soul Eater - Half the potency, full cost.
Accession - 3x the recast duration

and so on.

Instead pretty much everything that RDM had as unique was passed on, and will continue to be passed on until lvl. 99 and to counteract this all they got was Refresh II.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

like with most the JA's.

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Most?
I would have wrote "some" rather than "most".

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Most?
I would have wrote "some" rather than "most".

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The only ones that were not gimped were the ones that are not all that impressive.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

The only ones that were not gimped were the ones that are not all that impressive.

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I kinda agree. Those that weren't nerfed is mostly because 1) they aren't impressing, 2) They need JSE/Merits to be good.
But still, they are the great majority of JAs. Just a few ones have been gimped.
So I stand by my previous statement of "some" being better than "most" :p

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Originally Posted by Vortex

LOL why in gods name would anyone sub /smn for sch, that has got to be the dumbest thing ever, no matter what /smn gets subed nothing can ever make it appealing. they are fine as /rdm and in some sitations /blm even /whm has uses if you are purely support/healing only for haste mainly. it's bad enough whms sub rdm.

But back on topic this crap will never end,

WHM's primary job is to HEAL AND SUPPORT why the hell do people keep trying to make it useless by asking for their traits if you want cure 5 PLAY WHITE MAGE for crying out loud, rdm is not ment to fully keep everyone cured, neither is SCH they are made to be hybrids how many times do we have to keep going to this "waaa i want cure 5 because i want my hybrid job to be better then the jobs that are meant to do it mainly"

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lol it was a joke. /smn use to be the big thing years ago before WoTG because of the Boost MP trait. Surely you remember that... No?

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Originally Posted by Sira

could still cure more than whm with just rapture, which with how we are borderlined forced to use now, wouldnt change much with the addition of cure 5, we've been using rapture and we will continue using rapture (when needed) if sch were to get cure 5.

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I agree with the statement that it would cure a vast amount of HP. I guess this might make some people feel weird on an aesthetic level?

I just wonder when restoring that much HP would actually be useful, excluding Abyssea. Especially accounting for the time required to use a job ability when someone is missing 1500-2000 HP. Maybe combining it with Ascension for something that uses 10,000 needles-type attacks regularly or a similar situation, but that seems pretty niche.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

Maybe combining it with Ascension

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This isn't something I commonly think of... If Scholar gets Cure V, they'll probably get Accession for it, won't they? I don't even want to think about the balance implications around this.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Hmm. You DON'T need to have at least one JA from each job, the proof is in NIN and WHM who give you no real JA's and if you want to compare Divine Seal with Convert it's lacklustre at best.

Fact of the matter is Convert was one of RDM's biggest buffs outside of Composure, and I'm fine with subjobs getting it, but they should NOT have got it at the same potency. It's a subjob so it should have been half the potency like with most the JA's.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

The only ones that were not gimped were the ones that are not all that impressive.

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Convert is not that impressive. As it has been said by many intelligent people here, in some depth, subbing Scholar is generally a bit more impressive then Convert AND self Refresh. Nerfing this unnecessarily makes Red Mage a weaker sub, which is also a major part of balance.

Ninja has other things it gives that aren't job abilities. So does White Mage. But Divine Seal is pretty useful, considering that many of the other buffs White Mage gives as a sub aren't things Red Mage can generally make use of (ignoring White Mage's substantial spell list). Of course, White Mage gets buffs to it at higher levels that make it more useful to cast.

But, like I said in the comment you quoted, I believe that like stuff like Divine Seal, Red Mage should get a buff to Convert. This retains the incentives to sub Red Mage - particularly for Black Mage which gets the most usage out of subbing Red Mage for Convert, while giving Red Mage a very fair buff to Convert.

If you still think that Red Mage getting a buff to Convert is an unacceptable better solution (you don't necessarily have to agree with the numbers I provided earlier) then gimping everyone who subs Red Mage, I think there may be more problems here then an issue with other people getting the same strength Convert that Red Mages main jobbing the ability get.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

This isn't something I commonly think of... If Scholar gets Cure V, they'll probably get Accession for it, won't they? I don't even want to think about the balance implications around this.

Convert is not that impressive. As it has been said by many intelligent people here, in some depth, subbing Scholar is generally a bit more impressive then Convert AND self Refresh. Nerfing this unnecessarily makes Red Mage a weaker sub, which is also a major part of balance.

Ninja has other things it gives that aren't job abilities. So does White Mage. But Divine Seal is pretty useful, considering that many of the other buffs White Mage gives as a sub aren't things Red Mage can generally make use of (ignoring White Mage's substantial spell list). Of course, White Mage gets buffs to it at higher levels that make it more useful to cast.

But, like I said in the comment you quoted, I believe that like stuff like Divine Seal, Red Mage should get a buff to Convert. This retains the incentives to sub Red Mage - particularly for Black Mage which gets the most usage out of subbing Red Mage for Convert, while giving Red Mage a very fair buff to Convert.

If you still think that Red Mage getting a buff to Convert is an unacceptable better solution (you don't necessarily have to agree with the numbers I provided earlier) then gimping everyone who subs Red Mage, I think there may be more problems here then an issue with other people getting the same strength Convert that Red Mages main jobbing the ability get.

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I'm fine with a buff for RDM main, I'll ignore the insult you threw in your comment.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

This isn't something I commonly think of... If Scholar gets Cure V, they'll probably get Accession for it, won't they? I don't even want to think about the balance implications around this.

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We can more or less do this already with acession+rapture cure4.

If you have a decent enmity set and tanks that dont suck enmity is rarely a problem either.

SE could always just make cure5 not stack with accession, but then WHM/SCH wouldnt be able to do it either. how does that sit with you?

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Originally Posted by Economizer

This isn't something I commonly think of... If Scholar gets Cure V, they'll probably get Accession for it, won't they? I don't even want to think about the balance implications around this.

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That also means White Mage would be able to use Ascension with Cure V, most likely, so balance between jobs probably wouldn't change too much.

I shudder to think what Tier III of Voidwatch would be like to compensate for this level of healing ability, though. There's already a monster that uses straight-up Area of Effect death on the test server. No damage. No timer. Just enough time to stun, then BAM! DEATH! I think it's the praying mantis.

Could just give it to RDM at 99 that way SCH wouldn't get it until 106.

(Just joking)

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

BRD/WHM has 5% less cure potency than RDM, better buffs, more refresh, better debuffs.

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More refresh isn't really an issue. Best possible refresh a bard can get for himself is 14 without Empyrean Harp or Gjallerhorn. Best Rdm can get is 13.

And actually that 5% Cure potency will outweigh the 1% refresh. It'll take 88 ticks to get an extra cure spell off, of 264 seconds. And if you're spamming Cure4 during that time, the one extra C4 you get for free at the end (assuming you run out of mp at the same time) wont be enough to out-cure the rdm's higher potency ones.
Furthermore, if spamming C4 like that you will run of MP first due to a lower MP pool and no Convert.
And on top of that you're never cure spamming in that situation anyway and MP wont be an issue on either job so potency wins.

And then we get onto the other aspects. Brd is a better buffer, well no shit. It was designed as a party support job. Bard is not a better debuffer than Red Mage. Elegy is 50% Slow. AF3+2 body Slow II caps at 49%. Saboteur AF3+2 body Slow II with AF3+2 hands caps at 108% Slow and it's duration is longer unresisted than the Saboteur recast.

Even if you only have 3/5 Slow II merits (Low 25~%, Caps 37%~, let's average 30% against a hard NM), with Saboteur and AF3+2 hands/body that's still 90% Slow against a NM, which is significantly higher than Carnage Elegy.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

We can more or less do this already with acession+rapture cure4.

If you have a decent enmity set and tanks that dont suck enmity is rarely a problem either.

SE could always just make cure5 not stack with accession, but then WHM/SCH wouldnt be able to do it either. how does that sit with you?

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Aside from the bit about enmity - which I also totally didn't think about - these are all reasons I didn't really want to think about it over half an hour ago. I probably overreacted a bit too over all the brain hurt. Definitely probably.

Generally, I think that a) If Scholar gets Cure V, it should be able to Accession it and b) Accession probably is the reason at the very, very bottom of the list to give or not give Scholar the spell.

I don't think that WHM/SCH being able to Accession Cure V would be that big a deal, since White Mage has Curaga IV already. Accession is more of an issue for Scholar which can use it more, but just like Curaga for White Mage, I don't really expect Accession cures to be used much.

The main thing Accession has going for it is alliance targeting though (to be honest, I wish Curaga could do more then just party target too, but that's because I want to nuke the everliving #̶̧̳ͪ̈̍ͭ̓ͣ̀ͭͣ͜$̷͍͖͖͖̊̏ͯ̑%͑̿̍̐ͫ̎͌͜͏̟̺̜̱̱̥*̗̼̖̯̤́̆ͩͣ͟ͅ out of undead mobs). This would be the big part where balance comes in I suppose?

Now if there was ever an argument for Scholar to get Cure V, it would probably be Campaign Battle. Divine Seal + AOE Cure V on everything ever? I just wish more NPCs would work like Campaign Battle NPCs do when it comes to getting Accession. Sure, you get massive amounts of enmity, but it feels good watching twenty or so things get hit by a cure.

ISTM that a big part of the resistance to giving other jobs cure 5 is that it's the best cure, period. It's not just better than the ones below it, it's *also* better than the one *above* it.

So my solution is simple: nerf cure 5. Not so much that it becomes worthless, but enough to make it a simple progression from existing cures and not the god of efficiency, hate avoidance, and everything else. Improve cure 6 so that it's not just the thing you might use while cure 5 is on recast (if cure 5 becomes smaller and also possibly cheaper, cure 6 could become cheaper without becoming smaller, for example).

Once cure 5 is just another cure, not the one perfect cure, then it's fine to give it to other jobs.

WHMs would have more than one cure they might *actually want* to use and RDM and SCH have at least one cure they *can* use for more than trivial amounts of healing.

In the meantime, since WHM keep Afflatus, they'd still be the best, but not the only (except for the hardest cutting-edge content where the best basically *is* the only, but RDM and SCH might have other uses in those fights).