Paladin: Possibilities

One thing that they could do is like someone else mention making shields a offensive Weapon as well as a def one. This could be done with a stance like hasso with the same cooldown and duration. When in offensive you give up all the defense for it to act as a weapon where a block would do dmg to the mob on par with a sword attack. Remove the effect it goes back to what we have now. This would also effect Ochain plds by were the trade off would be to great but with a shield that good it would be worth it. Not a great idea but it would be a start and do less damage to the game then messing with the dmg calculations.

They could remove the atonement damage reduction that Abyssea NMs have and not give it to new NMs.

As is the case with White Mages needing to be THE best healer in the game, Paladins need to be THE best tanks in the game. No two ways about it. This requires some extensive changes and, no, Almace and Ochain are not solutions but window dressing covering up serious flaws.

So far the only person I've read actually putting useful ideas out here has been Zyeriis. Most of the rest of this thread has been from sabermetric geeks who probably wouldn't care if Paladin existed or not or AllaGartr elitists who think the only solution is to kiss enough endgamer rear end to get an Almace & Ochain (90).

I've offered some solutions somewhere else but I'll list them here:

*Raise enmity cap by 100%, accelerate enmity gain, decelerate enmity loss. Make these part of an exclusive 4-tier Job Trait for Paladins (i.e. not applicable to /PLD nor available to any other job).

*Make Double Attack, Fencer, and 2 tiers of Attack Bonus native to Paladin.

*Give Paladins a Provoke-type ability that earns twice as much enmity as Provoke.

*Add a haste/counter effect to Reprisal or make them part of a new JA like Hasso/Seigan.

*change Defense Bonuses from a fixed number to a reduced percentage of overall damage taken, increasing with each tier (example: -2% (Lv. 10), -3% (Lv. 30), -5% (Lv. 50), -10% (Lv. 70), -15% (lv. 76), for a total of -35% DT; also preventing the abuse of /PLD that has been the case for /NIN for so long).

@Bryth and GG
No, I understand how Retaliation works, I'm just forgetting that Ochain stops so much damage. Even with full on tanking gear (-50%) and good buffs a WAR is going to fall far behind on mitigation. I hadn't really thought about how much of a game changer Ochain was until now.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

All or most of your posts just consist of a simple formula: You're wrong. This is how you are wrong. I'm right. This is how I'm right. Completely leaving out the point or subject matter the OP was trying to portray.

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Nevermind actually. This is $%#@'ed up because I was drunk while writing this... But just goes to show you that posting on these forums is so depressing, it resulted in my having to drink just to bring my consciousness down to the same level...-_-...

So I take back some of what I said, but not the points about RPG's or whatever...

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Originally Posted by Hayward

As is the case with White Mages needing to be THE best healer in the game, Paladins need to be THE best tanks in the game. No two ways about it. This requires some extensive changes and, no, Almace and Ochain are not solutions but window dressing covering up serious flaws.

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What pld should be is irrelevant. It's not the best tank it never was and it never will be get over it you can't always get what you want.

@Mrbeansman:

I'd say from past history, it is absurd to say that Paladin's identity to S-E is irrelevant. I would guess you are the very type of sabermetrics geek who cares little about the things that make each job different--in other words, only numbers matter in the game. S-E, given past actions, appears to disagree or it would not have made such extensive efforts to return White Mage to the top of the healing order. What many of us are saying is that S-E needs to follow suit in the case of Paladin where tanking is concerned. Evasion tanking has its place, but that's called soloing in most cases. Counter-tanking by Monks can hardly be considered tanking in the sense of reducing one's own damage. If not for an alert White Mage, that Monk would not be long for the world no matter how much HP it has.

I stand by my post and repeat that it is necessary for S-E to return Paladins to the top of the tanking order with the same energy as they have done so with White Mage and healing.

Here are a few suggestions.

Enmity Cap (possible fix)
New Ability Champion
While under this effect (equal to composure in recast and duration) each JA ability, attack or spell directly targeted on a claimed enemy reduces hate pool of others on it's hate list except the player with champion active. If multiple champions are active then the effects are multiplied but each paladin reduces the hate of each other equally in the enemies hate pool as well as others.

Tank damage mitigation and effectiveness.
May add effect counterbash to shield blocking (instead of successful block a counterbash may activate instead) or fix reprisal to be equivalent to counterstance in duration allowing reflected damage for longer.

I like the idea for cover like the OP mentioned but instead of making it a trait increase durations or decrease recast to make it user applied. To avoid balance issues this should overwrite shadows because while under this effect the player uncovers their real position to cover others.

Added durability from cheap shot attacks.
New Trait Safeguard, Divine Intervention, Lifeguard or Second Chance,
If total hp is over 50% deathblows from critical damage and instant death can result in HP dropping to 1 instead of a K.O.

That about sums it up..

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Originally Posted by Hayward

@Mrbeansman:

I'd say from past history, it is absurd to say that Paladin's identity to S-E is irrelevant. I would guess you are the very type of sabermetrics geek who cares little about the things that make each job different--in other words, only numbers matter in the game. S-E, given past actions, appears to disagree or it would not have made such extensive efforts to return White Mage to the top of the healing order. What many of us are saying is that S-E needs to follow suit in the case of Paladin where tanking is concerned. Evasion tanking has its place, but that's called soloing in most cases. Counter-tanking by Monks can hardly be considered tanking in the sense of reducing one's own damage. If not for an alert White Mage, that Monk would not be long for the world no matter how much HP it has.

I stand by my post and repeat that it is necessary for S-E to return Paladins to the top of the tanking order with the same energy as they have done so with White Mage and healing.

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Nothing was done that made whm the best the only thing that changed is that we got more hp so cure IV wasn't cutting it anymore. Can you give me on reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want? The numbers are all that matters because the numbers are what makes the game go round. Sorry if you don't like it that's just how it is.

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Originally Posted by Mrbeansman

Can you give me one reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want?

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"Paladin" is a Tank Class (or has the ability to become one) in nearly every single RPG out there.

At this current moment, PLD fails in all 3 aspects: As a Tank as a Healer or as a Melee. Face the facts.

It's not what I want, it just common sense.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'll post the same idea for the 3rd-ish time this thread: Native Fencer, Impetus, Berserk, or some other form of damage buff to Paladin to make them less of a waste of space.

Just because you skim my posts doesn't mean I don't mention constructive things. I simply don't repeat them over and over.

Also what Byrth said.

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This was the nineteenth post you made in this thread.

Let's track down where you ever said anything about adding anything, especially anything about native fencer, impetus, or berserk. Oh, if you want to "tl:dr" I can assure you, you never posted about a single one of those things in this entire thread. *Begins copying and pasting*

First Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Eh, it's arguable that a MNK, DRK, or WAR at the least could still tank better than/as well as PLD even on harder mobs outside Abyssea since they were doing so at 75 anyways. Shields aren't really anything special.

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Doesn't add anything.

Second Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

D'oh, yes. Ochain is most definitely the exception to the rule. I'm trying to block it out of my memory right now because T2 VNM upgrade rates make me want to put my head through a wall.

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Third post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It is if you have an Ochain, which definitely does have to be kept in mind since it's really not a "rare" or "difficult to acquire" shield. Also, Shields block TP moves and grant TP where Counters do not, and Counter hard caps at 75% where Ochain blocks at 90%+. Buffing shield in general is a poor choice when Ochain is already god-mode overpowered. Anything they give Shield as a whole has the potential to make Ochain PLD literally invincible.

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Not a bad post but it still lacks any form of contribution or idea forming.

Fourth post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Only among low/mid-tier linkshells and players who generally did not know better. This has not been the case in the Endgame scene for the better part of half a decade now (2007-ish?). Half a dozen jobs all tanked better than Paladin before Abyssea, and still tank better than Paladin now.



Melee could always take hits. Like, seriously, this has never been a problem for melees. The only reason DD jobs got a bad rap for "Dying easily" is because most DDs sucked and didn't carry PDT/MDT sets. A Monk with 40 Def and -50% PDT in gear is going to take way less damage than a "Typical/Classic" Paladin in 600 Defense and 0 PDT.



Paladin is a sword wielding Melee job with access to White Magic, Shield bonuses, and some Defensive traits/JA. Whether or not that equates to being a tank is up to the players. As it stands, that particular combination is lackluster at best. Tanks do much better avoiding hits entirely than they would "Taking them for less damage". I had to put less damage in quotes because Paladin really doesn't take less damage than anyone else without an Ochain.

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Fifth post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Okay.



Until it is against the ToS to play jobs any way the players want, this will always be the case.



No. This is an incorrect analogy. The Developers build the maze. The Players then determine the fastest/best/most efficient course throughout the maze. When Route A takes twice as much time and energy to traverse as Route B, Route A will likely be discarded in favor of Route B.



White Mage doesn't have to be a healer. It is simply well equipped to be a healer. Whether or not it is efficient for White Mage to be a healer is left to the determination of the player base.

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Sixth post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I never assumed there were two routes. Would you rather I had included 3 routes in my expository? 4? There are an infinite number of routes in any given maze when the player is free to move in all four directions. Players will still find the fastest/most efficient route. Players can also eliminate a near infinite amount of routes via common sense. It would not be prudent to go forward and then immediately take a step backwards. Nor would it be at all smart to repeat the above process multiple times. I figured that was common sense.

As for twisting words, kindly refrain from projecting your angst onto me. I have not twisted anything. I have taken your words at face value. Do not blame me if you find yourself unable to properly convey what it is you are trying to say.

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Seventh post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The concept of Tanking, the Paladin job, and the desirability/love/adoration of Paladin pre-Abyssea are three different things. I will not address them together, as that would be a fallacy.

1) Desirability of Paladin pre-Abyssea:

As I already said, only mid/low-tier shells "Loved" Paladin as much as you claim it was loved. Good shells were already using Monk, Samurai, and Dark Knight tanks and killing things twice as fast. In these shells, the only Paladins were pretty much just the established oldies who loved their Aegis/Excal shinies. No Endgame Linkshell of any tier ever needed "More" Paladins. It was not in high demand. Either a shell had their tanks (whether they're Drks, Sams, Rdms, Mnks, or Plds), or they didn't and they weren't really a shell.

2) The Paladin Job:

I actually don't have anything more to say about Paladin. You haven't said anything about Paladin either. I'll leave this as is, as it is moot.

3) The concept of tanking:

It is always better to not get hit than to get hit. Period. Always. Every single time. Zero is always less than any positive number. That is all there is to it. As long as the option to not get hit exists, getting hit will never, ever be preferable, let alone ideal.

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Eighth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I can engage in combat and still not get hit. Two birds with one stone. Booyah.

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Doesn't add anything.

This is where I interject. 8 posts of non-contributions, I respond directly to you about how you're not contributing at all.

Ninth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

True enough, ha.



It has everything to do with the post I specifically replied to. Don't be mad just because two people chose to post about something aside from Paladin Modifications #9001. We were on topic, get over it.



This is because all jobs are fundamentally the same. Jobs do not define your character. Jobs augment your base character with Skills, Traits, Abilities, and Spells. It does not make them function any differently from one another. That is simply how the game was designed, how it works, and how it will always work. This cannot be changed.

What you seem to want is a different game. In all honesty, that may be the best option for you. I'm not trying to tell you to "gtfo", but there is a market for video games for a reason. You seem to dislike how FFXI works from its very core. Your adjustments practically ask for an entirely new game with the Ninja/Final Fantasy label on it. I honestly think you would be happier just trying out different games until you find one that suits you better.



I refuse to be told what I "Can" or "Cannot" do based on my job. The Developers have always supported the freedom to attempt as wide a variety of techniques as the playerbase wants to. Heck, we have surprised them with our ingenuity quite a few times now. It does not matter how a job is "Meant" to be played, or what role it's "Supposed" to have. We, the players, will find the role that is most effective for it, even if that role is benchwarming.

@Karinya:

Utsusemi's already been nerfed a couple times. I doubt the Devs are in any rush at all to nerf Utsusemi or Haste just because some Paladins complain. That is, more than they've already nerfed them.

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Tenth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I am a Paladin. An old one, and a good one. I've always considered it one of my favorite jobs. Unlike many other posters here, however, I'm in favor of realistic additions to the job rather than nonsense. You want a complete overhaul of the cRatio system. Arcon wants a complete overhaul of the Enmity system. As far as I'm concerned, both ideas are rubbish since you may as well rewrite the entire game from scratch if you want to fundamentally alter the core game mechanics in such a way.

I'm not sure you're understanding what I said earlier, either. Utsusemi and Haste have already been nerfed multiple times in the game's history. I simply find it unlikely that these core attributes are ever going to be considered for yet another nerf simply because a few people are upset that their job is not #1.

I never said that any amount of complaining would stop a nerf. I said that some paltry complaining is not going to cause one.

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Eleventh Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The system is what the system is. FFXI is a game, it has rules, it has a system in place. When the ideal playstyle in that system does not coincide with the style you want to play, you can either adjust yourself to match the game, or you attempt to adjust the game to match you.

I don't call every idea rubbish. I call rubbish ideas rubbish. I'm not sitting here insulting anyone. If someone considers being told they're wrong insulting, that's their own problem.

I believe calling the system broken is a matter of perspective. Is it working the way Tanaka-san and the Development Team envisioned it should over a decade ago? Probably not. Is the current system defunct in such a way that it prevents players from playing the game? No. The game can be played perfectly fine. People have been playing it fine for years now, with the same system intact.

Do I think the system is broken? Naw. People can play in this system just fine. The only ones who can't are those who insist that they should be able to play optimally while playing the game "The way they want".

Do I think Paladin could use some adjustments? Definitely. But anything involving Defense is a lost cause. CDC and Ochain were monumental steps in the right direction. Sure, it's a localized boost since it requires two Empyreans, but it's an incredibly solid boost. Paladin needs to not be a waste of a party slot in order for it to be useful, as right now plenty of other jobs can serve as a better tank that deals more damage and takes less.

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Twelfth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

They've been able to do that for ... years.

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Thirteenth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

I'm not trolling and it's not word play. DD jobs being able to survive while maintaining capped Enmity and dealing damage is nothing new and has been happening for years. I've seen people tank Khimaira on Corsair =/. It's not hard for anyone to stay alive against an NM, and if the Devs were to make it harder, Paladins would simply suffer too since they're not really much better at staying alive than some other jobs (and some are just plain better than Paladin at staying alive).

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Fourteenth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

How is saying that other jobs can hit capped PDT with damage-mitigating abilities of equal or greater strength than a shield "Basing things on personal experience"? It has nothing to do with personal experience. It is simply how the game works. Paladin does not really have anything so unique in the damage mitigation department that other jobs are unable to reach the same defensive peaks while maintaining a stronger offense. Obviously, this excludes Ochain.

I never called you rubbish. I called ideas rubbish, whether they're yours or not. You take things too personally. I'm the only one being personally "attacked" in this thread, and I'm not even getting mad about it. I've already mentioned once or twice (honestly, why repeat myself 5 dozen times?), as have plenty of other posters of a similar mindset, that Paladin only really needs a proper offensive buff to make it relevant enough that it wouldn't be a complete and utter waste of a slot.

I mean, as far as Abyssea is concerned Paladin will always be a waste of a slot, but who cares? Abyssea is midgame content in a niche environment. Making Paladin interchangeable or even occasionally viable among DD tanks is more than sufficient for overworld content, and the way to do that is to give Paladin more of a punch. Considering the premise of the job, it's unlikely Paladin will ever really be "Top Dog" or "Absolutely Vital" in FFXI.

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All that is said is that you want an offensive buff, while giving no ideas. Thus, doesn't add anything.

Up to 15 posts already?

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If an idea here had potential I'd run with it. All I see in your post is:

"I want to play Dungeons and Dragons Online. I do not care that this is Final Fantasy XI, and is its own Entity with its own rules and mechanics. If Class A and Class B do not do what they do in other games, then the rules and mechanics are obviously flawed."

If you want to play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI, play a game that is not Final Fantasy XI. Meanwhile, those of us who can cope with the fact that there are certain fundamental things about the game that will always remain the same will be brainstorming ideas for the advancement of the Paladin job that are feasible to implement and actually address the problems Paladin has.

And for what it's worth, Byrth's post was directed at Zy, not me.

@Zy: I never said Paladin has never been the best at anything. I said, for the past few years, other jobs have been able to tank better than Paladin on pretty much every NM in the game. From a purely defensive standpoint? RDM does it way better, Dark Knight does it just as well, Monk does it better, Samurai can do it just as well, and Ninja can do it just as well depending on the NM. From an Enmity standpoint? Pretty much every DD in the game does it as well or better. From a Damage standpoint? Again, most jobs do it better.

This has nothing to do with personal experience. This has nothing to do with some Paladins sucking or some DDs being amazing. I've had the privilege of playing with some absolutely amazing Paladins, and I'm not a huge slouch myself. Other jobs can simply mitigate damage more consistently while dealing more damage and, thus, maintaining equal/greater enmity values and ending fights sooner.

Edit2: As for Paladin being the best damage mitigation right now, blame that on Ochain. It's an incredibly powerful shield, and I've mentioned another half dozen times in this thread alone that I'm leaving it out of the picture for now.

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Sixteenth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Last I checked, you determined a game's genre based on what it is; you don't determine what it is based on the game's genre.

If it is so disturbing to call FFXI an MMORPG, call it something else. Or just call it FFXI. I thought you were the one telling me to think outside the box in your Shuriken thread. Now you want FFXI to conform to the box or else? Classy.

Finally, if I piss you off so much, you're welcome to vent about me on other sites where you're free to call me a doo doo head without fear of moderator reprisal. Link me for lulz please.

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Seventeenth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Adjusting fundamental mechanics formulas is like changing the rules of Monopoly 5 hours into the game because you don't think collecting $200 every time you pass go is enough for people who don't have Boardwalk and Park Place.

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Eighteenth Post

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If you can't tell the difference between adjusting fStr and cRatio/pDif calculations and adjusting the EXP loss curve then I just don't know what else to tell you.

Oh, and I'm not trolling. I'm simply putting up with your repeated personal attacks without retaliating or reporting you like a champ. Does that really hurt your feelings so much? You seem pretty mad.

Edit: Nvm, he's way more mad.

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Guess what post came next?

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Originally Posted by Sarick

Here are a few suggestions.

Enmity Cap (possible fix)
New Ability Champion
While under this effect (equal to composure in recast and duration) each JA ability, attack or spell directly targeted on a claimed enemy reduces hate pool of others on it's hate list except the player with champion active. If multiple champions are active then the effects are multiplied but each paladin reduces the hate of each other equally in the enemies hate pool as well as others.

Tank damage mitigation and effectiveness.
May add effect counterbash to shield blocking (instead of successful block a counterbash may activate instead) or fix reprisal to be equivalent to counterstance in duration allowing reflected damage for longer.

I like the idea for cover like the OP mentioned but instead of making it a trait increase durations or decrease recast to make it user applied. To avoid balance issues this should overwrite shadows because while under this effect the player uncovers their real position to cover others.

Added durability from cheap shot attacks.
New Trait Safeguard, Divine Intervention, Lifeguard or Second Chance,
If total hp is over 50% deathblows from critical damage and instant death can result in HP dropping to 1 instead of a K.O.

That about sums it up..

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I'll have to mull over most of this post but what caught my eye was the mention of making cover and utsusemi conflict. It's pretty interesting to say the least. Cover really shouldn't work with shadows because you, as the paladin, literally have to be between the enemy and the player as an actual physical block against the attack. Shadows taking the hit doesn't make sense as the attack is aimed at a different person, it just hits the paladin. Anyway, it gave me a few ideas to toy around with.

The counterstance thing gives me a bit to think about as well.

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Originally Posted by Mrbeansman

Can you give me on reason that pld should be the best tank that isn't based on what you want? The numbers are all that matters because the numbers are what makes the game go round. Sorry if you don't like it that's just how it is.

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That argument is tiring and oh so wrong. Yes, it's how it is. How is that an argument, for anything? Welcome to the tautology club. You just said what you said.

It's about what can be and what should be. Why shouldn't we ask for things to be how we want them? Isn't that the entire purpose of feedback? And SE acted on it too in the past, in fact quite a lot. If players never said anything, they wouldn't have adjusted anything at all. I dare you to point out one update in which they didn't add/fix anything suggested by players.

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?

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Anyone wanting to put up a "counter-argument" should please, please, PLEASE, read this paragraph over and over and over and over... and over and over... and over and over.

Thank you.

Just increasing the enmity cap won't do amything as long as they keep adding mobs that can reset hate a will. What they need is a way to keep emnity high be it though a dmg buff or adding pld only spells that have the same emnity as the old low recast high enmity spells that were nerfed from /rdm. That way plds could save the hate spike JAs for after a hate reset.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

"Paladin" is a Tank Class (or has the ability to become one) in nearly every single RPG out there.

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And what of it?

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At this current moment, PLD fails in all 3 aspects: As a Tank as a Healer or as a Melee. Face the facts.

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I am facing the facts I have been for a long time. You on the other hand need to learn how the game works.

Quote:

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It's not what I want, it just common sense.

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It is not common sense to completely overhaul how the game works cause you want an inferior job to be better.

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Originally Posted by Mrbeansman

And what of it?



I am facing the facts I have been for a long time. You on the other hand need to learn how the game works.



It is not common sense to completely overhaul how the game works cause you want an inferior job to be better.

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Do you intend to actually contribute something to this thread? You're typing an awful lot of words so far without saying a thing. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the BlueGartr forum where you can be a d-bag for the sake of being one. If you don't care for the solutions offered here, where are YOUR solutions? Don't bother answering, because you don't have any solutions. My suspicions are that you haven't ever unlocked Paladin and that you benefit from the job's exclusion (you're too much of a coward to list your jobs, so I cannot guess how you benefit).

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Originally Posted by Hayward

If you don't care for the solutions offered here, where are YOUR solutions? Don't bother answering, because you don't have any solutions. My suspicions are that you haven't ever unlocked Paladin and that you benefit from the job's exclusion (you're too much of a coward to list your jobs, so I cannot guess how you benefit).

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Can I get an "Amen" brotha.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

A reason that isn't based on what I want? Because from a role-playing aspect, a paladin is always a knight that focuses on defense more than offense. In fact, I'll go so far as to say PLD is the only (from a role-playing aspect) defensive class in the game, meant to be able to take damage. To a lesser degree, WAR and MNK would also qualify (not because of Counter or Evasion, but because of Defense/Defender and high HP/VIT/Chakra). And in addition to that, it has lots of native hate tools, even JAs that amplify enmity. Put both those things together and you see that PLD was clearly meant to be a tank. If those things don't make it a good tank, then it's a waste of a job, because that's what it was designed to do. Or do you think that's the intention of SE? To make PLD a town job, because of their shiny armor?

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I personally find this hilarious.

Red Mage has been using this argument for a long, long time, even longer than any other job and it has got them nowhere.

Summoner was in the same boat as Red Mage (and in a way still is until 75), and they clammored just as loudly (until 75).

Scholar, now that they're in full identity-crisis mode, are in the same boat as Red Mage since they are literally a White Mage and Black Mage wrapped into one and specifically meant to compete with the roles of those jobs instead of having it's own niche.

And now Paladins finally woke up and smelled the coffee, and want to use the same exact argument in that "this is what we're supposed to do"?

Allow me to be the first to say, this entire argument will collapse right on top of you. Red Mages and Summoners had to accept the reality that the game does not follow the history nor the lore behind them and Square will not take the steps to change that. So I have to say what literally thousands have said to them and say "deal with it".

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Do you intend to actually contribute something to this thread? You're typing an awful lot of words so far without saying a thing. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the BlueGartr forum where you can be a d-bag for the sake of being one. If you don't care for the solutions offered here, where are YOUR solutions? Don't bother answering, because you don't have any solutions. My suspicions are that you haven't ever unlocked Paladin and that you benefit from the job's exclusion (you're too much of a coward to list your jobs, so I cannot guess how you benefit).

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http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Quetzalcoatl/Mrbeansman

You seem to think I hate pld and never want it to be viable. If SE can make pld a good tank without breaking other aspects of the game I say go for it. That said the only options to fix pld atm require changing the game around it which should never be an option. A lot of people in this thread seem to feel entitled to take whatever they want from other jobs in the name of making pld "THE" tank job.

PS I'm not trying to be a d-bag I'm trying to be a realist.

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Originally Posted by Zyeriis

This was the nineteenth post you made in this thread.

Let's track down where you ever said anything about adding anything, especially anything about native fencer, impetus, or berserk. Oh, if you want to "tl:dr" I can assure you, you never posted about a single one of those things in this entire thread. *Begins copying and pasting*

First Post

Doesn't add anything.

Second Post

Doesn't add anything.

Third post

Not a bad post but it still lacks any form of contribution or idea forming.

Fourth post

Doesn't add anything.

Fifth post

Doesn't add anything

Sixth post

Doesn't add anything.

Seventh post

Doesn't add anything.

Eighth Post


Doesn't add anything.

This is where I interject. 8 posts of non-contributions, I respond directly to you about how you're not contributing at all.

Ninth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Tenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Eleventh Post

Doesn't add anything.

Twelfth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Thirteenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Fourteenth Post

All that is said is that you want an offensive buff, while giving no ideas. Thus, doesn't add anything.

Up to 15 posts already?

Doesn't add anything.

Sixteenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Seventeenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Eighteenth Post

Doesn't add anything.

Guess what post came next?

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Huh. I guess I confused this thread with one of the five freaking hundred (exaggeration) other threads on Paladin that I've responded to. After a while, it does get incredibly tiring of making what you deem "constructive" responses because people will just create a new thread the next day anyways and any effort I expended writing a nice, thoughtful suggestion would be for naught.

If it hasn't been made clear already, I can't stand repeating myself. With that said, I'm also not even required to post my own ideas for Paladin when discussing yours. I'll tell you the same thing I told Akujima in his thread. If you want to post a thesis, you have to be prepared to defend it from criticism. If your idea has holes, people will point out those holes. If your idea has flaws, people will take issue with the flaws. If your idea is closed minded (it is), people will be less likely to pay you an open mind when considering it.

A complete overhaul of the game's mechanics affects every single job in the game, not just Paladin. You say "Oh, well, it may be a slight DD nerf but really that's okay because they're too strong anyways". That doesn't mean it's right to ostracize each of the other 19 jobs in the game for the sake of buffing Paladin in such a way that, even then, only some of the game's Paladins would actually be happier.

You need to learn to take and respond to criticism. All I've seen from you is rage, "Where is your argument????", "Stop Flaming", and "You're not contributing anything". I don't need to present an alternative in order to dislike your idea and post contrary to it. If I say you're wrong, you need to either accept that and change your presentation or deny that and show me why you're right. That's how a discussion works.

And before I get called out for "Being happy that Paladin is excluded", Hayward should recognize my name. I am most definitely an old school Paladin, and I love the job. In fact, I love it so much that I actually care when people offer really freaking bad suggestions for it.

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Originally Posted by Carth

I personally find this hilarious.

Red Mage has been using this argument for a long, long time, even longer than any other job and it has got them nowhere.

Summoner was in the same boat as Red Mage (and in a way still is until 75), and they clammored just as loudly (until 75).

Scholar, now that they're in full identity-crisis mode, are in the same boat as Red Mage since they are literally a White Mage and Black Mage wrapped into one and specifically meant to compete with the roles of those jobs instead of having it's own niche.

And now Paladins finally woke up and smelled the coffee, and want to use the same exact argument in that "this is what we're supposed to do"?

Allow me to be the first to say, this entire argument will collapse right on top of you. Red Mages and Summoners had to accept the reality that the game does not follow the history nor the lore behind them and Square will not take the steps to change that. So I have to say what literally thousands have said to them and say "deal with it".

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I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere? Admitted, RDM isn't as useful as it used to be, it can still buff very well and almost heal as good as WHM. Maybe not on highest tier NMs, when high level cure spams would be required, but that, again, is kinda how it's supposed to be. White Mage should remain the best healer. Apart from that, lower tier cures, but still useful, almost the same buffs as WHM, at least the ones that matter, better enfeebling options, Refresh II, Phalanx II, Dia III, light nuking, etc. They may not be used for healing as much as they used to, but in my opinion, Lv75 was a bit unadjusted in that regard.

SMNs also are still SMNs, still useful, still good soloers (better than before), can be used to hold/kite/track mobs, magical/physical attacks, less MP worries, more avatars, more strategic uses, etc.

And all I hear SCH asking for is Cure V, which I can somewhat understand, but don't feel strongly either way (and I am a SCH as well). They can nuke on par with BLMs, have more strategic options, although most people are simply too lazy to utilize them.

Sorry, but I don't really see your argument at all. The game does follow the history and lore behind the job descriptions, and SE has repeatedly released updates to reflect that. The only exception I can think of is NIN. It took them years until they recognized NIN as a tank, because that's not what they wanted them to be, but what the players made them. And players held on to that idea so much, that they had no choice but to give in, and to this day NIN still retains its original qualities. All other jobs still retain their original ideas and qualities, SAM can tank decently with the right gear, DRG has utility functions, THF is a bit gimped in the Stealing/Mugging department, but that's it, they even got a huge TH boost now.

All in all, SE has done a nice job keeping the jobs at their respective duties. And as I said before, it's not even that PLD is inherently flawed, but the current game simply doesn't allow them to play their role as intended.

You haven't read any of the rdm melee threads? How bout jack of all trades yet SE decided out the blue to nerf rdm tanking after they used rdm/nin on JoL and AV in thier little vid.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere?

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It got them an Accuracy buff on Composure and a Sword WS that decreases Magic Evasion. As a RDM who isn't obsessed with melee for some godforsaken reason, these buffs are annoying at best. Why? Opportunity cost. The more tweaks added to a useless feature, the fewer tweaks left for a useful one. Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

And as I said before, it's not even that PLD is inherently flawed, but the current game simply doesn't allow them to play their role as intended.

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The idea of a Blood Tank in FFXI is inherently flawed. In that sense, "Pure" Paladin is most definitely flawed from the get-go. I'm having trouble determining the scale with which you're talking about the "current game" here though. If you mean "Post-Abyssea/ToAU where DDs are stronger and take as little damage", I agree it keeps Pld/Nin from keeping up properly. If you mean "Final Fantasy XI with its current pDif/cRatio/Enmity functions", then you're right that it does prevent bloodtanking Paladin from ever being useful but I don't think it warrants a change on the scale which you tend to propose.

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Originally Posted by Akujima

Anyone wanting to put up a "counter-argument" should please, please, PLEASE, read this paragraph over and over and over and over... and over and over... and over and over.

Thank you.

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Something to think about.

I once heard a saying that stated. "Sometimes the best defense is a good offense"

This is what makes monks counter tanking effective. With counterbash added or reprisal modified this might comply with the wise wisdom I quoted above. Even a job meant for taking damage and abuse should be allowed to utilize offensive damage mitigation. It's just common sense.

Take a for example, warships carry phalanx cannons to destroy incoming rockets before they hit. This is what phalanx really is as well but damage isn't reflected it's countered with a null effect. Reprisal in my book is just a form of a reactive armor added to the shield. To bad it doesn't last very long and has a relatively long recast.

I know some would say rl is not the same as the game but we already use our weapons as a defensive tool though parrying sucks and it not relieable. Thats still not a good reason why a shield couldn't be used as a in a simlier way for offense.

Sar though when you wrote reactive armor first thing I thought of was the M-1's armor and a pld getting a shoulder fired RPG throw at them. See if PLD can "Tank" that(ok that was a pretty bad pun) .

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Originally Posted by Hayward

You're typing an awful lot of words so far without saying a thing. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't the BlueGartr forum where you can be a d-bag for the sake of being one.

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For anyone making these kinds of post you do know that acting like this is a great way to get shit canned into the alligator fuck house by Isladar right?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I find that argument kinda groundless. How has it got them nowhere? Admitted, RDM isn't as useful as it used to be, it can still buff very well and almost heal as good as WHM. Maybe not on highest tier NMs, when high level cure spams would be required, but that, again, is kinda how it's supposed to be. White Mage should remain the best healer. Apart from that, lower tier cures, but still useful, almost the same buffs as WHM, at least the ones that matter, better enfeebling options, Refresh II, Phalanx II, Dia III, light nuking, etc. They may not be used for healing as much as they used to, but in my opinion, Lv75 was a bit unadjusted in that regard.

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Go on the RDM forums, because you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Seriously, go read it, because the above quote does not touch anything I have said.

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SMNs also are still SMNs, still useful, still good soloers (better than before), can be used to hold/kite/track mobs, magical/physical attacks, less MP worries, more avatars, more strategic uses, etc.

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Before 75. During the era when SMNs are just gimped WHMs because SE never bothered to fix the inherent flaw of SMN (their avatars suck without doing 1k+ blood pacts).

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And all I hear SCH asking for is Cure V, which I can somewhat understand, but don't feel strongly either way (and I am a SCH as well). They can nuke on par with BLMs, have more strategic options, although most people are simply too lazy to utilize them.

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No, SCH was better than BLM and right on par with WHM before Abyssea, because they were MP efficient. They casted more nukes and had similar methods of healing to a WHM. Now that they're second-rate to both jobs they finally realized who they were.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

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While I support melee buffs (because the job has no direction from what I've seen thus far), I personally don't care what RDM get as long as it's a good, or even just a decent update.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It got them an Accuracy buff on Composure and a Sword WS that decreases Magic Evasion. As a RDM who isn't obsessed with melee for some godforsaken reason, these buffs are annoying at best. Why? Opportunity cost. The more tweaks added to a useless feature, the fewer tweaks left for a useful one. Inb4 I get swarmed for this because all the Rdms who post on these forums are melee fanatics.

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Oh God, I couldn't agree with this more.

(Although I do really like Composure for the buff duration bonuses.)

I'm building a melee set just for goofing off solo on RDM/NIN or RDM/BLU, but any RDM should be able to recognize that RDM is a bottom-of-the-barrel DD. RDM's strength is in party play, and while RDM isn't a premiere healer as in the 75cap days (and it never should have been the most sought-after healer), it's still a strong support mage. RDM cripples mobs with enfeebles while curing and nuking as needed.

I don't know why so few RDMs in-game take meleeing seriously while forum RDMs (across several forums) harp on it endlessly. It's like they will not let go of a 7-year-old grudge. I'd take their complaints more seriously if players were limited to one leveled job per character.

RDM isn't the only mage that can wield weapons. All of them can.

RDM is plenty strong even in the age of Abyssea. If my LS/friends have all the required jobs covered for NM killing sprees, then the first thing that happens is that I'm asked to change to RDM. The added support, nukes, and especially enfeebles make a very noticeable difference. I enjoy the hell out of it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Huh. I guess I confused this thread with one of the five freaking hundred (exaggeration) other threads on Paladin that I've responded to. After a while, it does get incredibly tiring of making what you deem "constructive" responses because people will just create a new thread the next day anyways and any effort I expended writing a nice, thoughtful suggestion would be for naught.

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Can't say I didn't see that pathetic deflection coming: "i was wrong but i wasn't because I did what I said I did, just not here". Why'd you even bother posting? You know, aside from not actually contributing.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

If it hasn't been made clear already, I can't stand repeating myself. With that said, I'm also not even required to post my own ideas for Paladin when discussing yours. I'll tell you the same thing I told Akujima in his thread. If you want to post a thesis, you have to be prepared to defend it from criticism. If your idea has holes, people will point out those holes. If your idea has flaws, people will take issue with the flaws. If your idea is closed minded (it is), people will be less likely to pay you an open mind when considering it.

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If it hasn't been made clear yet, when I interjected, you had yet to say anything about anything. Do I need to go quote you again? If you want to post about a flaw in some one elses idea, you have to actually talk about one of those ideas. If you can't do that, and you weren't, then you're going to be called out on it.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

A complete overhaul of the game's mechanics affects every single job in the game, not just Paladin. You say "Oh, well, it may be a slight DD nerf but really that's okay because they're too strong anyways". That doesn't mean it's right to ostracize each of the other 19 jobs in the game for the sake of buffing Paladin in such a way that, even then, only some of the game's Paladins would actually be happier.

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Yes, because Paladin is the only job that would be positively affected by such a reconstruction of a system that you admit is flawed, and has been flawed from the beginning. Your opinion of whether or not it is necessary is irrelevant to it being a possible solution. It may not be a "necessary" tweak but, then again, there really isn't such a thing as a "necessary" tweak to anything in the game. They didn't "have" to "fix" hundreds of things over the years (such as having to "set" your mog-house) but they did.

Edit: You seem to fail to realize what revising the scale of str vs. vit would actually mean. You can call it a nerf all you want but you are only saying that because its a reduction. You also seem to think that it would only affect players but, here's the thing: it would affect enemies as well. It would make VIT/defense actually relevant, stat-wise and THAT's it. The entire game's damage would be scaled back, yes. So what? It would be the exact same thing, except everything and everyone would be tougher. From there, they could scale the enemies up to the already mentioned "level 110+" marks to make them challenging enough to warrant the use of PLD and blood tanking. Note that I'm stating both things as separate entities rather than just one (as you have done before). PLD wouldn't be the only blood tank but, you're right in regards to it being the best. I want to make blood tanking relevant, as it should be. "Evasion" tanking isn't actually "tanking", its contradictory to the term.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You need to learn to take and respond to criticism. All I've seen from you is rage, "Where is your argument????", "Stop Flaming", and "You're not contributing anything". I don't need to present an alternative in order to dislike your idea and post contrary to it. If I say you're wrong, you need to either accept that and change your presentation or deny that and show me why you're right. That's how a discussion works.

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And you need to learn how to give criticism. All I've seen from you is "This is WHY Paladin is flawed", "You're wrong because I said so", "U mad!". I don't need to defend against criticisms that aren't there.

There's a difference between "pointing out a flaw and trying to figure out a way to get rid of that flaw" (called being constructive) and just knocking an idea because you think it would be too much work (called being lazy) or just saying the idea is flawed and putting absolutely no effort into proposing an alternative. You can claim you're trying to "discuss" something but you offer nothing other than: "you're wrong". Discussions aren't: "Here's an idea" > "You're wrong" > "Here's an idea" > "You're wrong", and this is disregarding the spew of posts you made before even your ever-so-elegant "pointing out flaws" posts where you said a lot of words but, ultimately said nothing at all.