Einherjar / Limbus / Nyzul Isle / Salvage - No More Proc Systems!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asymptotic

SE gives people a way to drastically increase payoff for a little bit of extra busy work, and people whine because they'd rather engage and watch netflix with autotarget on.

---

How is anyone whining? You think its fun waiting around for someone to proc yellow? People spend more time afk or watching TV waiting for procs then actually doing something productive and moving on to something else.

Without running the numbers, I would have to guess that while pup can be very competitive, The required skill becomes a much larger factor in a job as complex as pup. DD jobs like monk/war/sam are comparatively dummy-proof, making pup an unnecessary risk to bring to events, regardless of actual output. Basically, pup has a higher suck / kick-ass ratio due to the gearing / play style complexity, and the general oddball nature of the job.


EDIT: again though, I ran no numbers. This is just an educated guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Well, you don't do that either, you even said you had parses but you didn't want to reveal them...

Anyway. Your contention is that effectively, PUP gains less from haste than other jobs because the automaton isn't affected, making it less able to make up the performance gap left by the master's lower base stats (and as a secondary effect, PUP is slowed down more by job ability use than most jobs). I assume I'm reading that right. I don't fully agree, but I want to make sure we're on the same page.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Throwing fully buffed PUPs and fully buffed MNKs at Qilin on Kine's spreadsheet, the MNK is doing 387 damage/second with Vereth 90, and the PUP is doing 253 damage/second with Vereth 90 - without pet and not using maneuvers, since those subtract from master damage. If you want to add pet's damage into the mix, I'll input that the PUP will use one maneuver every 20 seconds (that's reasonable, eh?), that drops their DPS down to 230.

When your puppet is able to do 160 damage/second to Qilin, let me know.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Now, this may be a silly line of discussion, but I would like to see this situation analyzed:

Let's just say for a moment, that all haste of every kind was removed from the game (martial arts and DW delay reductions remain in place). Would this significantly alter what jobs rank where in terms of DPS? Does this bring PUP/SMN/BST into contention? Or, flip it around: Let's just say that all of everyone has max haste and we add max haste to all pets. Are they now competitive?

---

Removing Haste increases the relative power of SAM and all 2-handers /SAM. Maxing Haste for pets increases the relative power of PUP and BST.

Who cares, though? That's a hypothetical, not where the game is now. Where the game is now, PUP sucks. There's some math. Go show me your puppet doing 160 damage/second to Qilin.

Edit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Without running the numbers, I would have to guess that while pup can be very competitive, The required skill becomes a much larger factor in a job as complex as pup. DD jobs like monk/war/sam are comparatively dummy-proof, making pup an unnecessary risk to bring to events, regardless of actual output. Basically, pup has a higher suck / kick-ass ratio due to the gearing / play style complexity, and the general oddball nature of the job.


EDIT: again though, I ran no numbers. This is just an educated guess.

---

It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 seconds. The more complicated a PUP tries to play, the lower their personal damage output will be - and their personal damage output will always dwarf their puppet's damage output if they're in a group receiving buffs.

Well I somewhat agree with your comments about keeping things simple; from a game play standpoint (and this is what makes PUP more enjoyable than a lot of jobs for me), PUP has a much higher skill ceiling (as you said). BST also, to a lesser degree (but I quit BST early on after trying it years ago because using charmed pets and not having the leave command made it frustrating :p)

I would (personally) rather play with the smart person who knows what he's doing than the guy who isn't so bright, but is playing an easy job so you wouldn't notice his suckage as easily. That's a good thing about PUP, not a weakness- it's doesn't take long to see if you're playing with someone who's mastered the job or if you're playing with someone with uh... not-so-much mastery.

Quote:

---

Who cares, though? That's a hypothetical, not where the game is now. Where the game is now, PUP sucks. There's some math. Go show me your puppet doing 160 damage/second to Qilin.

---

That's not math. Don't respond if you can't make a meaningful comment. And why are we talking about Qilin, out of all the monsters in the game, just out of curiosity?

Quote:

---

It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 seconds

---

It's not "the opposite." this has zero effect on the hypothetical scenarios because PUP needs to do those things regardless of how much or little haste it or its pet has. In fact, in the case of the pet having maximum haste, the impact of JA delay would be reduced because it only slows down you, not the master- and on top of that, if you didn't need a wind attachment to achieve that maximum haste (let's just say you don't), you woudn't need to use as many maneuvers, dropping the impact further.

The point of these situations is to find where things can/need to be adjusted to bring these where they should be. offering no constructive discussion, saying "You suck/Pup sucks", and offering challenges doesn't in any way contribute to this admittedly off topic discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 seconds. The more complicated a PUP tries to play, the lower their personal damage output will be - and their personal damage output will always dwarf their puppet's damage output if they're in a group receiving buffs.

---

HAH! Guess I was way off. Glad I stopped that job at level 8.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Well I somewhat agree with your comments about keeping things simple; from a game play standpoint (and this is what makes PUP more enjoyable than a lot of jobs for me), PUP has a much higher skill ceiling (as you said). BST also, to a lesser degree (but I quit BST early on after trying it years ago because using charmed pets and not having the leave command made it frustrating :p)

I would (personally) rather play with the smart person who knows what he's doing than the guy who isn't so bright, but is playing an easy job so you wouldn't notice his suckage as easily. That's a good thing about PUP, not a weakness- it's doesn't take long to see if you're playing with someone who's mastered the job or if you're playing with someone with uh... not-so-much mastery.

---

Sort of, but if they are both geared the same, I'm probably still gonna want the skilled guy to come on a more "reliable" job for things that matter. Of course on less difficult things he can do what he wants.


BLAH DOUBLE EDIT: on topic. let's just all agree that the proc system is well intended but still somewhat messed up, and not fit for a lot of events. Lets leave it out of these.

Quote:

---

Sort of, but if they are both geared the same, I'm probably still gonna want the skilled guy to come on a more "reliable" job for things that matter.

---

if you already know the person's capabilities, then he can be just as reliable on whatever job.

Quote:

---

HAH! Guess I was way off. Glad I stopped that job at level 8.

---

You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's not math. Don't respond if you can't make a meaningful comment.

---

Yes. I don't feel like using half a page to outline basic damage formulas for you. Is there something wrong with using Kinematic's spreadsheets for average DPS now? It's not like anything in there is a big mystery. They're just a big calculator.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

And why are we talking about Qilin, out of all the monsters in the game, just out of curiosity?

---

This was about leaving PUP out of a Voidwatch alliance after all, because it just can't keep up with the big 3 in a group setting. Qilin's a mob we have fairly close approximate stats for, so I threw those in. Do you want all the nitty gritty details? I sure as hell don't mind.

Edit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

---

This is patently incorrect. It has quite a large effect on the scenario. Take it apart:

Maneuvers take a set amount of time (120 delay) on a set interval.

As damage per unit time increases, the damage lost in each set amount of time grows. Wherein doing 100 DPS and losing 2 S means a loss of 200 damage, doing 500 DPS and losing 2 S means a loss of 1000 damage.

The relative detrimental effect of using maneuvers/JAs increases as your haste value increases. This is why every good Monk knows not to use Boost if they're 2hr'ing or have Marches.

Quote:

---

This was about leaving PUP out of a Voidwatch alliance after all

---

Well, off on a tangent, you wouldn't have to worry about leaving any PUPs out of a voidwatch alliance, only because there is almost nothing of interest to the job in the event. In fact, the only job specific item I'm aware of off the top of my hand, the new animator, is inferior to the existing ones. There are a few other things, but must players of the job were pretty disappointed when they found this out.

//again, not important to the discussion, just an observation.

Quote:

---

Yes. I don't feel like using half a page to outline basic damage formulas for you. Is there something wrong with using Kinematic's spreadsheets for average DPS now? It's not like anything in there is a big mystery.

---

This doesn't really help me calculate the automaton's capability because we don't know all of the fTP, modifiers and characteristics of the automaton's weapon skills. This is aside from punching numbers into a spreadsheet is not a thoroughly accurate predictor of exactly how well you will perform in the actual game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

not important to the discussion

---

Sums up pretty much all of your past half dozen posts in this thread, even in the context of the PUP discussion.

Player Skill? Irrelevant. The issue is job potential, not whether or not one player can be a great PUP and then a crapass WAR.

Non-Voidwatch/Lowman/Unbuffed scenarios? Irrelevant. No one made any claims about these.

Hypotheticals where puppets can cap Haste? Irrelevant. It's not real.

PUP in Alliance-scale events where players are getting buffs? Shit. No one's claiming anything more or anything less than that. And it's damn true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

---

Like GG said if you use a Maneuver every 20 seconds, you take out 2 seconds of DPS from the ability delay. It has a huge effect on the scenario, since without Maneuvers your automaton sucks, and with them your DPS drops.

This is relevant on all jobs, particularly why I try to use Retaliation and Hasso at the same time if I'm forced to use them mid battle (3 seconds instead of 2), or why I use Meditate immediately after Ukko's (3 seconds instead of 2), or why THFs should be using SA and then WS 1 second afterwards (3 seconds instead of 2). Same with Boost, and the stacking of Focus/Impetus/Berserk/Aggressor (if you choose to do it that way).

Edit: Point is, you lose much more DPS from a 20s cd JA than from a 5~4:10 minute cd JA, and it just adds to PUP's awfulness.

Quote:

---

Player Skill? Irrelevant. The issue is job potential, not whether or not one player can be a great PUP and then a crapass WAR.

---

Player skill is not irrelevant. You just massively discredited yourself. And where did I say anything about being a crapass WAR? I only said that player skill is more visible with some jobs (e.g. PUP) than others.

Quote:

---

Like GG said if you use a Maneuver every 20 seconds, you take out 2 seconds of DPS from the ability delay. It has a huge effect on the scenario, since without Maneuvers your automaton sucks, and with them your DPS drops.

---

No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum- Using abilities adds the same amount of delay and thus the same amount of time doing no damage no matter how fast your attack speed is. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.

Quote:

---

Edit: Point is, you lose much more DPS from a 20s cd JA than from a 5~4:10 minute cd JA, and it just adds to PUP's awfulness.

---

PUP is not "awful," especially in everyday situations with non-elitists. It needs improvement, I don't disagree at all. but you have no purpose to use extreme adjectives except in an effort to infuriate me for your own entertainment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum- Using abilities adds the same amount of delay and thus the same amount of time doing no damage no matter how fast your attack speed is. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.

---

That is why its worse at higher haste. The faster you can hit, the more hits you miss during the 2 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

That is why its worse at higher haste. The faster you can hit, the more hits you miss during the 2 seconds.

---

I sir, am humbled by your wisdom and don't know why I failed to see that end of it.

I suppose this means that the no-haste situation is by far the most favorable one then.

The other parts of my last post stand, however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Player skill is not irrelevant. You just massively discredited yourself. And where did I say anything about being a crapass WAR? I only said that player skill is more visible with some jobs (e.g. PUP) than others.

---

Player skill is irrelevant because no one is making any claims about players (inb4 calling Analhelm overly defensive again). The only claims being made are about jobs. Not players. Jobs. Maximum potential, average performance, not some one-off challenge between individual people. People are a variable. They effect where a job's observed performance falls in relation to its expected performance. It does not change the job's expected or potential performance. A super great awesome tier PUP will never, ever break the world of math and do more than is mathematically possible for them to do on average.

If you don't have the ability to play any job but PUP or SMN at their maximum potential, that's your flaw and you can live with it. Some people actually do take the time to be the very best that they can be at every job they have. This is yet another reason why player skill is not a mathematically viable factor. A good player will be able to hit the maximum potential of their job no matter what job they're on. A bad player is just a bad player, and that doesn't change the fact that, if they're performing poorly, it's their own fault and not the fault of their job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.

---

It removes a constant percentage of your damage (2.0 * D/S). It adds a static number to your damage (Pet attributes which are not changing based on Master haste). Therefore, the end result varies with total DPS (which varies with Haste).

Scenario: Adding a maneuver makes your Puppet do 500 more damage every usage

Formula becomes:

500 - 2(X) where X is your DPS.

Whenever X is greater than 250, you are losing overall damage by stopping and using Maneuvers instead of auto-attacking and WS'ing.

Edit: Christ, finally. At least it clicked.

Quote:

---

Player skill is irrelevant

---

Only irrelevant in the arguments about math. In real, live practice, player skill is not irrelevant, because different players have different skill levels and some people can and some people can't handle their jobs.

Quote:

---

If you don't have the ability to play any job but PUP or SMN at their maximum potential, that's your flaw and you can live with it.

---

I take every job I play fairly seriously. Not just PUP, or SMN, but every one I play. So no, it's not my flaw.

In real, live practice not everyone who plays not-PUP is complete and utter shit at their jobs. Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuous (That means Dishonest, by the way). Always.

If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobs - and thus not someone I want to work with at all.

Quote:

---

Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuous

---

You're implying such a comparison was made where none was made.

Quote:

---

If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobs

---

That's a massive load of cockadookie.

Just because someone doesn't want to play "the big three" doesn't meant hey give half a damn about their other jobs. People play a given job because they WANT to play it. They min-max a particular job because they like playing that job- but it doesn't mean they "don't give half a damn about any of their other jobs." Not everyone is as obsest with perfecting the maximum possible performance party setup as you are. It's not necessary to easily and handily beat any monster in the game. The level of performance you demand as a player is not a level of performance that is required to beat ANYTHING in the game.

You've denied it before, but you are sitll displaying a demand for an unnecessary level of perfection. Very few groups will ever have completely optimal setups for everything they do. But they will still be able to accomplish their goals. It might take a few seconds to minutes longer to win a fight, but 99.9% of the population is okay with that. If it was as important as you like to think it is, everybody would use the same setup for everything, and at least a good third of the jobs could be removed from the game with no impact.

Again, bad assumptions. I didn't talk about the group, or what the person wanted to play, or anything like that.

I simply said: if the best job they have for Voidwatch is PUP, then their other jobs must be shit. Follow this for a moment.

First, the antecedent: If the Best job they have for Voidwatch is PUP.

Note, this says nothing about what they want to come, or what they come, or what they like.

If the best job they have for Voidwatch, that is highest performing Voidwatch job, is PUP: Okay.

Now, the conclusion: Then their other jobs must suck.

Pretty straightforward. With a good player at the wheel, a good WAR will destroy a good PUP in an alliance. If their WAR is not destroying their PUP, then their WAR is not good. Ergo, it sucks.

Edit: lol assumptions about how I run my linkshell. Right on, bro. I never said I wouldn't work with PUPs. I simply wouldn't work with someone who didn't give half a flying frap about any job but PUP, which is what it would take for PUP to be their best job for Voidwatch.

Quote:

---

Now, the conclusion: Then their other jobs must suck.

---

This is a logically fallicious conclusion. baced on the antecedent. It's not even a complete argument. Your argument is:

A sucks.

If A is best, then B sucks.
Not a complete argument.

You've omitted your opinion about all other jobs being unequivocally superior for all reasons and situations;

What you really want to say is:

A= PUP. B= {The rest of the jobs.}
A sucks.

B doesn't.

Therefore, if A > subset of B reperesenting all available jobs to the player, then subset of B must suck more.

Which is nonsense, but at least it completes your argument

Quote:

---

I simply wouldn't work with someone who didn't give half a flying frap about any job but PUP, which is what it would take for PUP to be their best job for Voidwatch.

---

Contradicts the preceeding sentence in your post, because if you would work with PUPs, you wouldn't work with them because they wouldn't be the best job for Voidwatch. You seem oblivious to the idea that having perfect geared Ukon WARs and whatever other perfect stuff you need for your perfect setup for a voidwatch NM isn't required to play and win that content.

I'm not talking about your linkshell- I don't know a thing about it. I'm talking about your attitude in regards how you feel people should play the game.

WANTING to use PUP to do <whatever> does not in any way imply anything about the condition of their other jobs. To assume this is nothing but folly.

I (currently) have four other jobs that I actively work to advance on. I can be competent with any of them. Just because I care about PUP more, it doesn't mean that my other jobs are crap.

(in before "using any job other than the most maximally optimal one is hurting everyone around you", which is ridiculous when you remember that you're playing this game for purposes of entertainment, which is what games are supposed to be for)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

PUP is not "awful," especially in everyday situations with non-elitists. It needs improvement, I don't disagree at all. but you have no purpose to use extreme adjectives except in an effort to infuriate me for your own entertainment.

---

I'm not elitist, I'll play with a PUP if that person wants to come PUP (outside of Abyssea, don't be stupid) and the rest of the party setup is good enough depending on the event.

Doesn't make it any less awful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

In real, live practice not everyone who plays not-PUP is complete and utter shit at their jobs. Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuous (That means Dishonest, by the way). Always.

If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobs - and thus not someone I want to work with at all.

---

Quoted for epic truth

Because quoting yourself and also posting twice in a row is cool.

It's also epic falsehood, not epic truth.

Player skill is irrelevant in this discussion, because player skill is majorly relevant to someone's performance. Meaning, skill makes a good player. However, that means that jobs cannot be compared with player skill in mind, because player skill will always trump other factors. So, to reliably compare two jobs, you need to assume the same skill level for both jobs. You can either assume the worst, but then you'd have to define what the worst is, or you assume the best, meaning you compare the jobs' capabilities. This can be entirely defined by math, which is why it's used in these discussions. It also makes sense, because one can reasonably assume that players will always strive to do their best, instead of their worst, or deliberately trying to be average. So that's why player skill cannot be taken into account when comparing jobs, or you'll get meaningless results, because player skill will almost always trump a job's native capabilities in relevance, which makes it, for this discussion, irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcon

It also makes sense, because one can reasonably assume that players will always strive to do their best, instead of their worst, or deliberately trying to be average. So that's why player skill cannot be taken into account when comparing jobs, or you'll get meaningless results, because player skill will almost always trump a job's native capabilities in relevance, which makes it, for this discussion, irrelevant.

---

I subscribe to a more negative and vaguely Hobbesian theory about player cognition, but arrive at the same conclusion.

The actions of most players are weird, dumb, and inexplicable. In fact, these actions are so weird, dumb, and inexplicable that no predictions or models can be made to account for the causes or effects of such actions.

Therefor, anyone attempting to make a prediction or model has no choice but to assume everyone does the most effective thing or at least a relatively effective thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Because quoting yourself and also posting twice in a row is cool.

It's also epic falsehood, not epic truth.

---

He was quoting me. We just share the same superior character model so I can understand your confusion.

And nowhere in any of my posts have I talked about what people want to play. Merely what performs the best in an Alliance. Do you see the disconnect?

You seem to think I hate people who like PUP or something. You should see my friends. BLU main with Almace. PLD main with Almace. THF main with Mandau. PUP main with no Empy and we make fun of him all the time for it. The list goes on.

You see, I'm really an extremely nice guy and an extremely competent leader. I just ask one thing from my members, and that is that they give me their best no matter what job they're on. In turn, I give them my absolute best every single time. If a player enjoys PUP more, that's great for them and I always try to work with people's preferences when I have the option. But I have to keep the group's welfare in mind first and foremost, and if I ask them to come WAR and they consistently do less damage on their WAR than their own PUP, then it's obvious to me that they're not giving me their all when they aren't getting their way. That is one thing I will not work with.

Quote:

---

PUP main with no Empy and we make fun of him all the time for it.

---

I wouldn't want to be that "friend." (I realize it's probably "Just messing" but that sort of thing gets on my nerves if it goes on for too long)

Quote:

---

I just ask one thing from my members, and that is that they give me their best no matter what job they're on. In turn, I give them my absolute best every single time. If a player enjoys PUP more, that's great for them and I always try to work with people's preferences when I have the option.

---

Seriously, that's good to hear, but nobody, and I mean nobody, could possibly gather that from any of your (or LL's, mostly LL's) posts on topics like this. You must be able to see how other people would perceive what you're saying as "I hate PUP, you can't use PUP, PUP is bad, go away." You and LL have very frequently posted with the same blunt, negative, arguably nonsconstructive nature every time this comes up. Which means that if you don't actually show that kind of disrespect to the job and its players in practice, then you and/or LL are posting that way purposely to troll me. In which case, I'd politely request to you that you stop trying to provoke me for entertainment purposes. I have an untamed passion for these jobs; you don't HAVE to exploit that and put me in "valiant defender" mode.

Quote:

---

I ask them to come WAR and they consistently do less damage on their WAR than their own PUP, then it's obvious to me that they're not giving me their all when they aren't getting their way.

---

I don't have a problem with expecting people to do their best. I do have a problem, however, with the automatic association between having a strong PUP apparently automatically meaning that they must not try to do their best on any other job. That's not the case for me, and very likely not the case for any truly serious player of the job (or whatever job is their favorite for that matter).

Can you guys go talk on the PUP board thanks... >.>

See, I told you you were being overly defensive about the job.

Nowhere have I ever insulted anyone for liking jobs. I'm glad they have something they enjoy. That does not, however, make PUP good in an alliance setting. It just does not.

Likewise, liking a job doesn't mandate being blind to the job's weaknesses. Sure, I like RDM a lot, but that doesn't mean I think it's super awesome at Voidwatch and a great mage to bring to everything right now. Straight up, it's not. RDM is in a really shitty place right now.

[disclaimer; sucks+="in an alliance setting";]

Yeah. PUP sucks. Does that mean you suck? Nah. Well, not on its own, though you're certainly good at grating on nerves when you read past what people are saying and inferring things that just aren't there - That has nothing to do with PUP, though. Does that mean anyone who likes or plays PUP sucks? Nah.

Could PUP not suck if X, Y, or Z happened? Sure. Does that have any bearing on whether or not PUP sucks in this context right now? Nah. No matter what we brainstorm here, PUP sucks. The focus of the discussion wasn't even on PUP to begin with, but rather Voidwatch. Therefore, it's not worth wasting everyone's time talking about how/why PUP sucks or being constructive about fixing PUP because all that matters in the context of Voidwatch is that PUP sucks and has no place there.

[/disclaimer]

You seem to have problems differentiating between the job and the player behind it. As far as I'm concerned, these are two separate entities entirely and the flaws of one do not reflect flaws in the other. This is pretty much the crux of every single argument you've thrown us all into over all of your pet jobs for the past few months. You seem functionally incapable of not taking comments about PUP/SMN personally.

That can't be good for your blood pressure. Just chillax and realize that the best thing for you to do, if you like pet jobs, is to recognize that they really bloody suck and then work on figuring out ways to fix them rather than stuffing cotton in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA PUP IS FINE IF GOOD PLAYERS USE IT".

No. PUP's not fine. Denying it only makes the problem worse for all of them.

Edit: Don't look at me. We were originally talking about god damn Voidwatch :(

Quote:

---

You seem functionally incapable of not taking comments about PUP/SMN personally.

---

I don't take them personally. and I'm not "funcitonally incapable." But your posts are often offensive (meaning "on the attack", not "inappropriate") and being that I disagree with some of your points, I feel the need to speak up. That doesn't mean that I'm thinking "an attack on PUP is an attack on me" - it means I'm thinking "This guy doesn't seem to understand the job too well if he really thinks it's as bad as he says it is."

Quote:

---

No. PUP's not fine. Denying it only makes the problem worse for all of them.

---

There's a difference between "not fine" and "terribad." It needs to be better than it is now, but that doesn't make it a "bad job." You need to be more direct and literal with your words if you wexpect me not to infer things you think I shouldn't.

Quote:

---

"LA LA LA PUP IS FINE IF GOOD PLAYERS USE IT".

---

I never said this, now who's inferring things they shouldn't? You were the one who said player skill was irrelevant (which you qualified more specifically after I posted about it, but you should have done that to begin with). You need to be specific from the beginning, and not just assume that I or anyone else are going to read every word of yours exactly the way you intended.

I don't think PUP doesn't have issues but you often make posts that seem to attack or deride players of the job and you don't explain what you think the problems are until I press you for it. In order for things to get fixed, we have to understand what the problems are and how those problems can be addressed. We can't just go "Oh, SE isn't going to do anything about it, so we may as well not talk about it."

Quote:

---

Therefore, it's not worth wasting everyone's time talking about how/why PUP sucks or being constructive about fixing PUP because all that matters in the context of Voidwatch is that PUP sucks and has no place there.

---

It is worth "wasting everyone's time" (It's not a waste) talking about PUP and being constructive about it, because if we don't then the problems will never be solved. As far as voidwatch, if PUP "sucks and has no place there" (which you'd be wrong by accounts of my friends having trouble capping lights because high quality triggers ended up being PUP WS) then in my opinion (I know you disagree) there is a problem that needs addressing.

Unless every single proc ended up being Auto WS, any good shell would have no problem capping lights without a PUP. It's really not that hard, even without covering everything, especially when you can get 200% of one light from a single proc by interrupting a cast/action with an HQ proc.

Quote:

---

Unless every single proc ended up being Auto WS, any good shell would have no problem capping lights without a PUP.

---

Well, that's basically what happened. It wouldn't necessarily kill you to have someone on standby for that purpose, no matter how useless you see the job being outside of that.

I'd love to have the free party slots to waste on a standby character like that =/.

Doesn't matter post-update anyways, considering you can discern white proc and it auto-caps all lights.

How the hell did this thread get hijacked by pup trolls?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rukkirii

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^

---

thank you, thank you SO much!


any chance of removing the stupid system from some of the places it is now?

debating what trolling is .... is trolling. Anyways..... The events named in the thread title are not good places for procs. Just make the drop rates better. 0/100+ on goliard boots. I am pretty pissed that I have to go try for them again now >.<. Please don't make matters worse by telling me I have to go blm/brd to every nyzul island run now. grrrrrr.........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Unless every single proc ended up being Auto WS, any good shell would have no problem capping lights without a PUP. It's really not that hard, even without covering everything, especially when you can get 200% of one light from a single proc by interrupting a cast/action with an HQ proc.

---

they added lights to Nyzul, limbus, Ein and salvage? I thought this was supposed to be about improving them, not wrecking them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glamdring

they added lights to Nyzul, limbus, Ein and salvage? I thought this was supposed to be about improving them, not wrecking them

---

We don't know. They said "not all". They didn't say which though, so as things stand, They may end up in some of these events (which would suck). The point of the thread is to petition against it (and argue about pup). I am against procs in these events. Nyzul and Salvage are already limited in what jobs are desired for them and or party size. Procs would make it worse. Einherjar used to have semi hard bosses. I don't want to be trying to proc in a event with short time limit. I like that Einherjar was all out fast paced and over fast. Limbus, I could see putting it on the bosses maybe. Coin drops are plenty as it is though.

I hate procs, I belive if one beats a mob that is called a win, not this do this and do that with a pop set or in an allowed amount of time and maybe you get what you weant. I dont have to fist**** a girl to get what I want so why should I need to do that for this game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by deces

I hate procs, I belive if one beats a mob that is called a win, not this do this and do that with a pop set or in an allowed amount of time and maybe you get what you weant. I dont have to fist**** a girl to get what I want so why should I need to do that for this game

---

I lol'ed. And then I agreed. They should make getting drops thief's job again. Staggers are cool, but getting loot is thief's bane. They keep saying they can't make thief better because it has lol treasure hunter, but they never go "hey black mage, we are gimping all your magic because you can make everything drop 200% better.".

Let's get back to letting people beat stuff up on whatever their best job is, instead of whatever job can proc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unleashhell

As the subject stats, renewel to these zones DO NOT NEED PROC SYSTEMS!!

• These events should be able to be done everyday just like the revamp of dynamis.

• Nyzul Isle and Einherjar should have Alexandrite and linen pouches available from those events.

• New Chambers should be added to Einherjar with a new Einherjar specific Abjuration set as well as upgrades to existing Einherjar specific gear (Valhalla, Fork etc)

• No single person treasure pools that can give an existing item a person already has.

Proc systems were fine in Abyssea, and we were forced to have them in the revamp of dynamis. Please do not force on us more proc systems in events that did not have them before.

---

To bring back up the point of this entire thread as apposed to whatever peope are droning on about now, you do realize that all of these addition proc systems are because people complained about "not being usefull."(I.e. abyssea.) So they were added in responce. It was brought upon yourselves.