Einherjar / Limbus / Nyzul Isle / Salvage - No More Proc Systems!!

[Alhanelem]

Player Skill? Irrelevant. The issue is job potential, not whether or not one player can be a great PUP and then a crapass WAR.

Player skill is not irrelevant. You just massively discredited yourself. And where did I say anything about being a crapass WAR? I only said that player skill is more visible with some jobs (e.g. PUP) than others.

Like GG said if you use a Maneuver every 20 seconds, you take out 2 seconds of DPS from the ability delay. It has a huge effect on the scenario, since without Maneuvers your automaton sucks, and with them your DPS drops.

No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum- Using abilities adds the same amount of delay and thus the same amount of time doing no damage no matter how fast your attack speed is. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.

Edit: Point is, you lose much more DPS from a 20s cd JA than from a 5~4:10 minute cd JA, and it just adds to PUP's awfulness.

PUP is not "awful," especially in everyday situations with non-elitists. It needs improvement, I don't disagree at all. but you have no purpose to use extreme adjectives except in an effort to infuriate me for your own entertainment.

[FrankReynolds]

No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum- Using abilities adds the same amount of delay and thus the same amount of time doing no damage no matter how fast your attack speed is. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.

That is why its worse at higher haste. The faster you can hit, the more hits you miss during the 2 seconds.

[Alhanelem]

That is why its worse at higher haste. The faster you can hit, the more hits you miss during the 2 seconds.

I sir, am humbled by your wisdom and don't know why I failed to see that end of it.

I suppose this means that the no-haste situation is by far the most favorable one then.

The other parts of my last post stand, however.

[Greatguardian]

Player skill is not irrelevant. You just massively discredited yourself. And where did I say anything about being a crapass WAR? I only said that player skill is more visible with some jobs (e.g. PUP) than others.

Player skill is irrelevant because no one is making any claims about players (inb4 calling Analhelm overly defensive again). The only claims being made are about jobs. Not players. Jobs. Maximum potential, average performance, not some one-off challenge between individual people. People are a variable. They effect where a job's observed performance falls in relation to its expected performance. It does not change the job's expected or potential performance. A super great awesome tier PUP will never, ever break the world of math and do more than is mathematically possible for them to do on average.

If you don't have the ability to play any job but PUP or SMN at their maximum potential, that's your flaw and you can live with it. Some people actually do take the time to be the very best that they can be at every job they have. This is yet another reason why player skill is not a mathematically viable factor. A good player will be able to hit the maximum potential of their job no matter what job they're on. A bad player is just a bad player, and that doesn't change the fact that, if they're performing poorly, it's their own fault and not the fault of their job.

No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.

It removes a constant percentage of your damage (2.0 * D/S). It adds a static number to your damage (Pet attributes which are not changing based on Master haste). Therefore, the end result varies with total DPS (which varies with Haste).

Scenario: Adding a maneuver makes your Puppet do 500 more damage every usage

Formula becomes:

500 - 2(X) where X is your DPS.

Whenever X is greater than 250, you are losing overall damage by stopping and using Maneuvers instead of auto-attacking and WS'ing.

Edit: Christ, finally. At least it clicked.

[Alhanelem]

Player skill is irrelevant

Only irrelevant in the arguments about math. In real, live practice, player skill is not irrelevant, because different players have different skill levels and some people can and some people can't handle their jobs.

If you don't have the ability to play any job but PUP or SMN at their maximum potential, that's your flaw and you can live with it.

I take every job I play fairly seriously. Not just PUP, or SMN, but every one I play. So no, it's not my flaw.

[Greatguardian]

In real, live practice not everyone who plays not-PUP is complete and utter shit at their jobs. Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuous (That means Dishonest, by the way). Always.

If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobs - and thus not someone I want to work with at all.

[Alhanelem]

Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuous

You're implying such a comparison was made where none was made.

If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobs

That's a massive load of cockadookie.

Just because someone doesn't want to play "the big three" doesn't meant hey give half a damn about their other jobs. People play a given job because they WANT to play it. They min-max a particular job because they like playing that job- but it doesn't mean they "don't give half a damn about any of their other jobs." Not everyone is as obsest with perfecting the maximum possible performance party setup as you are. It's not necessary to easily and handily beat any monster in the game. The level of performance you demand as a player is not a level of performance that is required to beat ANYTHING in the game.

You've denied it before, but you are sitll displaying a demand for an unnecessary level of perfection. Very few groups will ever have completely optimal setups for everything they do. But they will still be able to accomplish their goals. It might take a few seconds to minutes longer to win a fight, but 99.9% of the population is okay with that. If it was as important as you like to think it is, everybody would use the same setup for everything, and at least a good third of the jobs could be removed from the game with no impact.

[Greatguardian]

Again, bad assumptions. I didn't talk about the group, or what the person wanted to play, or anything like that.

I simply said: if the best job they have for Voidwatch is PUP, then their other jobs must be shit. Follow this for a moment.

First, the antecedent: If the Best job they have for Voidwatch is PUP.

Note, this says nothing about what they want to come, or what they come, or what they like.

If the best job they have for Voidwatch, that is highest performing Voidwatch job, is PUP: Okay.

Now, the conclusion: Then their other jobs must suck.

Pretty straightforward. With a good player at the wheel, a good WAR will destroy a good PUP in an alliance. If their WAR is not destroying their PUP, then their WAR is not good. Ergo, it sucks.

Edit: lol assumptions about how I run my linkshell. Right on, bro. I never said I wouldn't work with PUPs. I simply wouldn't work with someone who didn't give half a flying frap about any job but PUP, which is what it would take for PUP to be their best job for Voidwatch.

[Alhanelem]

Now, the conclusion: Then their other jobs must suck.

This is a logically fallicious conclusion. baced on the antecedent. It's not even a complete argument. Your argument is:

A sucks.

If A is best, then B sucks.
Not a complete argument.

You've omitted your opinion about all other jobs being unequivocally superior for all reasons and situations;

What you really want to say is:

A= PUP. B= {The rest of the jobs.}
A sucks.

B doesn't.

Therefore, if A > subset of B reperesenting all available jobs to the player, then subset of B must suck more.

Which is nonsense, but at least it completes your argument

I simply wouldn't work with someone who didn't give half a flying frap about any job but PUP, which is what it would take for PUP to be their best job for Voidwatch.

Contradicts the preceeding sentence in your post, because if you would work with PUPs, you wouldn't work with them because they wouldn't be the best job for Voidwatch. You seem oblivious to the idea that having perfect geared Ukon WARs and whatever other perfect stuff you need for your perfect setup for a voidwatch NM isn't required to play and win that content.

I'm not talking about your linkshell- I don't know a thing about it. I'm talking about your attitude in regards how you feel people should play the game.

WANTING to use PUP to do <whatever> does not in any way imply anything about the condition of their other jobs. To assume this is nothing but folly.

I (currently) have four other jobs that I actively work to advance on. I can be competent with any of them. Just because I care about PUP more, it doesn't mean that my other jobs are crap.

(in before "using any job other than the most maximally optimal one is hurting everyone around you", which is ridiculous when you remember that you're playing this game for purposes of entertainment, which is what games are supposed to be for)

[Leonlionheart]

PUP is not "awful," especially in everyday situations with non-elitists. It needs improvement, I don't disagree at all. but you have no purpose to use extreme adjectives except in an effort to infuriate me for your own entertainment.

I'm not elitist, I'll play with a PUP if that person wants to come PUP (outside of Abyssea, don't be stupid) and the rest of the party setup is good enough depending on the event.

Doesn't make it any less awful.