Einherjar / Limbus / Nyzul Isle / Salvage - No More Proc Systems!!

[Leonlionheart]

In real, live practice not everyone who plays not-PUP is complete and utter shit at their jobs. Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuous (That means Dishonest, by the way). Always.

If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobs - and thus not someone I want to work with at all.

Quoted for epic truth

[Alhanelem]

Because quoting yourself and also posting twice in a row is cool.

It's also epic falsehood, not epic truth.

[Arcon]

Player skill is irrelevant in this discussion, because player skill is majorly relevant to someone's performance. Meaning, skill makes a good player. However, that means that jobs cannot be compared with player skill in mind, because player skill will always trump other factors. So, to reliably compare two jobs, you need to assume the same skill level for both jobs. You can either assume the worst, but then you'd have to define what the worst is, or you assume the best, meaning you compare the jobs' capabilities. This can be entirely defined by math, which is why it's used in these discussions. It also makes sense, because one can reasonably assume that players will always strive to do their best, instead of their worst, or deliberately trying to be average. So that's why player skill cannot be taken into account when comparing jobs, or you'll get meaningless results, because player skill will almost always trump a job's native capabilities in relevance, which makes it, for this discussion, irrelevant.

[SpankWustler]

It also makes sense, because one can reasonably assume that players will always strive to do their best, instead of their worst, or deliberately trying to be average. So that's why player skill cannot be taken into account when comparing jobs, or you'll get meaningless results, because player skill will almost always trump a job's native capabilities in relevance, which makes it, for this discussion, irrelevant.

I subscribe to a more negative and vaguely Hobbesian theory about player cognition, but arrive at the same conclusion.

The actions of most players are weird, dumb, and inexplicable. In fact, these actions are so weird, dumb, and inexplicable that no predictions or models can be made to account for the causes or effects of such actions.

Therefor, anyone attempting to make a prediction or model has no choice but to assume everyone does the most effective thing or at least a relatively effective thing.

[Greatguardian]

Because quoting yourself and also posting twice in a row is cool.

It's also epic falsehood, not epic truth.

He was quoting me. We just share the same superior character model so I can understand your confusion.

And nowhere in any of my posts have I talked about what people want to play. Merely what performs the best in an Alliance. Do you see the disconnect?

You seem to think I hate people who like PUP or something. You should see my friends. BLU main with Almace. PLD main with Almace. THF main with Mandau. PUP main with no Empy and we make fun of him all the time for it. The list goes on.

You see, I'm really an extremely nice guy and an extremely competent leader. I just ask one thing from my members, and that is that they give me their best no matter what job they're on. In turn, I give them my absolute best every single time. If a player enjoys PUP more, that's great for them and I always try to work with people's preferences when I have the option. But I have to keep the group's welfare in mind first and foremost, and if I ask them to come WAR and they consistently do less damage on their WAR than their own PUP, then it's obvious to me that they're not giving me their all when they aren't getting their way. That is one thing I will not work with.

[Alhanelem]

PUP main with no Empy and we make fun of him all the time for it.

I wouldn't want to be that "friend." (I realize it's probably "Just messing" but that sort of thing gets on my nerves if it goes on for too long)

I just ask one thing from my members, and that is that they give me their best no matter what job they're on. In turn, I give them my absolute best every single time. If a player enjoys PUP more, that's great for them and I always try to work with people's preferences when I have the option.

Seriously, that's good to hear, but nobody, and I mean nobody, could possibly gather that from any of your (or LL's, mostly LL's) posts on topics like this. You must be able to see how other people would perceive what you're saying as "I hate PUP, you can't use PUP, PUP is bad, go away." You and LL have very frequently posted with the same blunt, negative, arguably nonsconstructive nature every time this comes up. Which means that if you don't actually show that kind of disrespect to the job and its players in practice, then you and/or LL are posting that way purposely to troll me. In which case, I'd politely request to you that you stop trying to provoke me for entertainment purposes. I have an untamed passion for these jobs; you don't HAVE to exploit that and put me in "valiant defender" mode.

I ask them to come WAR and they consistently do less damage on their WAR than their own PUP, then it's obvious to me that they're not giving me their all when they aren't getting their way.

I don't have a problem with expecting people to do their best. I do have a problem, however, with the automatic association between having a strong PUP apparently automatically meaning that they must not try to do their best on any other job. That's not the case for me, and very likely not the case for any truly serious player of the job (or whatever job is their favorite for that matter).

[Unleashhell]

Can you guys go talk on the PUP board thanks... >.>

[Greatguardian]

See, I told you you were being overly defensive about the job.

Nowhere have I ever insulted anyone for liking jobs. I'm glad they have something they enjoy. That does not, however, make PUP good in an alliance setting. It just does not.

Likewise, liking a job doesn't mandate being blind to the job's weaknesses. Sure, I like RDM a lot, but that doesn't mean I think it's super awesome at Voidwatch and a great mage to bring to everything right now. Straight up, it's not. RDM is in a really shitty place right now.

[disclaimer; sucks+="in an alliance setting";]

Yeah. PUP sucks. Does that mean you suck? Nah. Well, not on its own, though you're certainly good at grating on nerves when you read past what people are saying and inferring things that just aren't there - That has nothing to do with PUP, though. Does that mean anyone who likes or plays PUP sucks? Nah.

Could PUP not suck if X, Y, or Z happened? Sure. Does that have any bearing on whether or not PUP sucks in this context right now? Nah. No matter what we brainstorm here, PUP sucks. The focus of the discussion wasn't even on PUP to begin with, but rather Voidwatch. Therefore, it's not worth wasting everyone's time talking about how/why PUP sucks or being constructive about fixing PUP because all that matters in the context of Voidwatch is that PUP sucks and has no place there.

[/disclaimer]

You seem to have problems differentiating between the job and the player behind it. As far as I'm concerned, these are two separate entities entirely and the flaws of one do not reflect flaws in the other. This is pretty much the crux of every single argument you've thrown us all into over all of your pet jobs for the past few months. You seem functionally incapable of not taking comments about PUP/SMN personally.

That can't be good for your blood pressure. Just chillax and realize that the best thing for you to do, if you like pet jobs, is to recognize that they really bloody suck and then work on figuring out ways to fix them rather than stuffing cotton in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA PUP IS FINE IF GOOD PLAYERS USE IT".

No. PUP's not fine. Denying it only makes the problem worse for all of them.

Edit: Don't look at me. We were originally talking about god damn Voidwatch

[Alhanelem]

You seem functionally incapable of not taking comments about PUP/SMN personally.

I don't take them personally. and I'm not "funcitonally incapable." But your posts are often offensive (meaning "on the attack", not "inappropriate") and being that I disagree with some of your points, I feel the need to speak up. That doesn't mean that I'm thinking "an attack on PUP is an attack on me" - it means I'm thinking "This guy doesn't seem to understand the job too well if he really thinks it's as bad as he says it is."

No. PUP's not fine. Denying it only makes the problem worse for all of them.

There's a difference between "not fine" and "terribad." It needs to be better than it is now, but that doesn't make it a "bad job." You need to be more direct and literal with your words if you wexpect me not to infer things you think I shouldn't.

"LA LA LA PUP IS FINE IF GOOD PLAYERS USE IT".

I never said this, now who's inferring things they shouldn't? You were the one who said player skill was irrelevant (which you qualified more specifically after I posted about it, but you should have done that to begin with). You need to be specific from the beginning, and not just assume that I or anyone else are going to read every word of yours exactly the way you intended.

I don't think PUP doesn't have issues but you often make posts that seem to attack or deride players of the job and you don't explain what you think the problems are until I press you for it. In order for things to get fixed, we have to understand what the problems are and how those problems can be addressed. We can't just go "Oh, SE isn't going to do anything about it, so we may as well not talk about it."

Therefore, it's not worth wasting everyone's time talking about how/why PUP sucks or being constructive about fixing PUP because all that matters in the context of Voidwatch is that PUP sucks and has no place there.

It is worth "wasting everyone's time" (It's not a waste) talking about PUP and being constructive about it, because if we don't then the problems will never be solved. As far as voidwatch, if PUP "sucks and has no place there" (which you'd be wrong by accounts of my friends having trouble capping lights because high quality triggers ended up being PUP WS) then in my opinion (I know you disagree) there is a problem that needs addressing.

[Greatguardian]

Unless every single proc ended up being Auto WS, any good shell would have no problem capping lights without a PUP. It's really not that hard, even without covering everything, especially when you can get 200% of one light from a single proc by interrupting a cast/action with an HQ proc.