Einherjar / Limbus / Nyzul Isle / Salvage - No More Proc Systems!!

[Unleashhell]

SE gives people a way to drastically increase payoff for a little bit of extra busy work, and people whine because they'd rather engage and watch netflix with autotarget on.

How is anyone whining? You think its fun waiting around for someone to proc yellow? People spend more time afk or watching TV waiting for procs then actually doing something productive and moving on to something else.

[FrankReynolds]

Without running the numbers, I would have to guess that while pup can be very competitive, The required skill becomes a much larger factor in a job as complex as pup. DD jobs like monk/war/sam are comparatively dummy-proof, making pup an unnecessary risk to bring to events, regardless of actual output. Basically, pup has a higher suck / kick-ass ratio due to the gearing / play style complexity, and the general oddball nature of the job.


EDIT: again though, I ran no numbers. This is just an educated guess.

[Greatguardian]

Well, you don't do that either, you even said you had parses but you didn't want to reveal them...

Anyway. Your contention is that effectively, PUP gains less from haste than other jobs because the automaton isn't affected, making it less able to make up the performance gap left by the master's lower base stats (and as a secondary effect, PUP is slowed down more by job ability use than most jobs). I assume I'm reading that right. I don't fully agree, but I want to make sure we're on the same page.

Throwing fully buffed PUPs and fully buffed MNKs at Qilin on Kine's spreadsheet, the MNK is doing 387 damage/second with Vereth 90, and the PUP is doing 253 damage/second with Vereth 90 - without pet and not using maneuvers, since those subtract from master damage. If you want to add pet's damage into the mix, I'll input that the PUP will use one maneuver every 20 seconds (that's reasonable, eh?), that drops their DPS down to 230.

When your puppet is able to do 160 damage/second to Qilin, let me know.

Now, this may be a silly line of discussion, but I would like to see this situation analyzed:

Let's just say for a moment, that all haste of every kind was removed from the game (martial arts and DW delay reductions remain in place). Would this significantly alter what jobs rank where in terms of DPS? Does this bring PUP/SMN/BST into contention? Or, flip it around: Let's just say that all of everyone has max haste and we add max haste to all pets. Are they now competitive?

Removing Haste increases the relative power of SAM and all 2-handers /SAM. Maxing Haste for pets increases the relative power of PUP and BST.

Who cares, though? That's a hypothetical, not where the game is now. Where the game is now, PUP sucks. There's some math. Go show me your puppet doing 160 damage/second to Qilin.

Edit:

Without running the numbers, I would have to guess that while pup can be very competitive, The required skill becomes a much larger factor in a job as complex as pup. DD jobs like monk/war/sam are comparatively dummy-proof, making pup an unnecessary risk to bring to events, regardless of actual output. Basically, pup has a higher suck / kick-ass ratio due to the gearing / play style complexity, and the general oddball nature of the job.


EDIT: again though, I ran no numbers. This is just an educated guess.

It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 seconds. The more complicated a PUP tries to play, the lower their personal damage output will be - and their personal damage output will always dwarf their puppet's damage output if they're in a group receiving buffs.

[Alhanelem]

Well I somewhat agree with your comments about keeping things simple; from a game play standpoint (and this is what makes PUP more enjoyable than a lot of jobs for me), PUP has a much higher skill ceiling (as you said). BST also, to a lesser degree (but I quit BST early on after trying it years ago because using charmed pets and not having the leave command made it frustrating )

I would (personally) rather play with the smart person who knows what he's doing than the guy who isn't so bright, but is playing an easy job so you wouldn't notice his suckage as easily. That's a good thing about PUP, not a weakness- it's doesn't take long to see if you're playing with someone who's mastered the job or if you're playing with someone with uh... not-so-much mastery.

Who cares, though? That's a hypothetical, not where the game is now. Where the game is now, PUP sucks. There's some math. Go show me your puppet doing 160 damage/second to Qilin.

That's not math. Don't respond if you can't make a meaningful comment. And why are we talking about Qilin, out of all the monsters in the game, just out of curiosity?

It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 seconds

It's not "the opposite." this has zero effect on the hypothetical scenarios because PUP needs to do those things regardless of how much or little haste it or its pet has. In fact, in the case of the pet having maximum haste, the impact of JA delay would be reduced because it only slows down you, not the master- and on top of that, if you didn't need a wind attachment to achieve that maximum haste (let's just say you don't), you woudn't need to use as many maneuvers, dropping the impact further.

The point of these situations is to find where things can/need to be adjusted to bring these where they should be. offering no constructive discussion, saying "You suck/Pup sucks", and offering challenges doesn't in any way contribute to this admittedly off topic discussion.

[FrankReynolds]

It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 seconds. The more complicated a PUP tries to play, the lower their personal damage output will be - and their personal damage output will always dwarf their puppet's damage output if they're in a group receiving buffs.

HAH! Guess I was way off. Glad I stopped that job at level 8.

Well I somewhat agree with your comments about keeping things simple; from a game play standpoint (and this is what makes PUP more enjoyable than a lot of jobs for me), PUP has a much higher skill ceiling (as you said). BST also, to a lesser degree (but I quit BST early on after trying it years ago because using charmed pets and not having the leave command made it frustrating )

I would (personally) rather play with the smart person who knows what he's doing than the guy who isn't so bright, but is playing an easy job so you wouldn't notice his suckage as easily. That's a good thing about PUP, not a weakness- it's doesn't take long to see if you're playing with someone who's mastered the job or if you're playing with someone with uh... not-so-much mastery.

Sort of, but if they are both geared the same, I'm probably still gonna want the skilled guy to come on a more "reliable" job for things that matter. Of course on less difficult things he can do what he wants.


BLAH DOUBLE EDIT: on topic. let's just all agree that the proc system is well intended but still somewhat messed up, and not fit for a lot of events. Lets leave it out of these.

[Alhanelem]

Sort of, but if they are both geared the same, I'm probably still gonna want the skilled guy to come on a more "reliable" job for things that matter.

if you already know the person's capabilities, then he can be just as reliable on whatever job.

HAH! Guess I was way off. Glad I stopped that job at level 8.

You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

[Greatguardian]

That's not math. Don't respond if you can't make a meaningful comment.

Yes. I don't feel like using half a page to outline basic damage formulas for you. Is there something wrong with using Kinematic's spreadsheets for average DPS now? It's not like anything in there is a big mystery. They're just a big calculator.

And why are we talking about Qilin, out of all the monsters in the game, just out of curiosity?

This was about leaving PUP out of a Voidwatch alliance after all, because it just can't keep up with the big 3 in a group setting. Qilin's a mob we have fairly close approximate stats for, so I threw those in. Do you want all the nitty gritty details? I sure as hell don't mind.

Edit:

You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

This is patently incorrect. It has quite a large effect on the scenario. Take it apart:

Maneuvers take a set amount of time (120 delay) on a set interval.

As damage per unit time increases, the damage lost in each set amount of time grows. Wherein doing 100 DPS and losing 2 S means a loss of 200 damage, doing 500 DPS and losing 2 S means a loss of 1000 damage.

The relative detrimental effect of using maneuvers/JAs increases as your haste value increases. This is why every good Monk knows not to use Boost if they're 2hr'ing or have Marches.

[Alhanelem]

This was about leaving PUP out of a Voidwatch alliance after all

Well, off on a tangent, you wouldn't have to worry about leaving any PUPs out of a voidwatch alliance, only because there is almost nothing of interest to the job in the event. In fact, the only job specific item I'm aware of off the top of my hand, the new animator, is inferior to the existing ones. There are a few other things, but must players of the job were pretty disappointed when they found this out.

//again, not important to the discussion, just an observation.

Yes. I don't feel like using half a page to outline basic damage formulas for you. Is there something wrong with using Kinematic's spreadsheets for average DPS now? It's not like anything in there is a big mystery.

This doesn't really help me calculate the automaton's capability because we don't know all of the fTP, modifiers and characteristics of the automaton's weapon skills. This is aside from punching numbers into a spreadsheet is not a thoroughly accurate predictor of exactly how well you will perform in the actual game.

[Greatguardian]

not important to the discussion

Sums up pretty much all of your past half dozen posts in this thread, even in the context of the PUP discussion.

Player Skill? Irrelevant. The issue is job potential, not whether or not one player can be a great PUP and then a crapass WAR.

Non-Voidwatch/Lowman/Unbuffed scenarios? Irrelevant. No one made any claims about these.

Hypotheticals where puppets can cap Haste? Irrelevant. It's not real.

PUP in Alliance-scale events where players are getting buffs? Shit. No one's claiming anything more or anything less than that. And it's damn true.

[Leonlionheart]

You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

Like GG said if you use a Maneuver every 20 seconds, you take out 2 seconds of DPS from the ability delay. It has a huge effect on the scenario, since without Maneuvers your automaton sucks, and with them your DPS drops.

This is relevant on all jobs, particularly why I try to use Retaliation and Hasso at the same time if I'm forced to use them mid battle (3 seconds instead of 2), or why I use Meditate immediately after Ukko's (3 seconds instead of 2), or why THFs should be using SA and then WS 1 second afterwards (3 seconds instead of 2). Same with Boost, and the stacking of Focus/Impetus/Berserk/Aggressor (if you choose to do it that way).

Edit: Point is, you lose much more DPS from a 20s cd JA than from a 5~4:10 minute cd JA, and it just adds to PUP's awfulness.