FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

You don't have to like that it's nearly a requirement to own an Almace or Ochain... But when nearly every DD is striving for an empy or at least WoE weapon, there's no excuse for you not to as well.

And really... Almace is not hard. It didn't require kissing ass to get it, just having 2 or 3 friends really. You put the same amount of work into getting Atonement (assuming you did) as Almace requires.

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The difference here being that other jobs are clearly useful without Empyrean weapons, whereas Paladin requires them just to be serviceable. This is not a legitimate solution.

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Originally Posted by Linh

QFT

Quoted for Truth

Play a game to have fun. Not hold back and watch the other guys have fun

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Only problem is SE is trying to force us to remember the roots of the game, party style combat.

They want us to use a THF to control Enmity more, they want us to bring a BRD and SMN to help PLDs survive super-damaging attacks.

They want us to utilize every tool we can to make a fight go smoothly, which is why the Reward system in Voidwatch doesn't penalize large groups (in fact in a way in penalizes small ones). They want large alliance so we can bring all these excess jobs to make a party come together.

They seem to be trying not to make 1 job self reliant, they want a THF to be invited for loot and to make a Tanks job easier by helping DDs control their enmity. or a SMN For E.Armor, etc, Only problem is they don't seem to realize what tools we have now are simply not enough unless everyone in the fight holds back 99% of the time.

I just hope they realize/correct this as well.

All I've been able to glean from this thread is that Camate and the Devs know way more about Paladin than I think anyone, myself included, gave them credit for.

Thank you for not falling prey to some of the complete and utter crap that has been posted and suggested over the past year.

Thank you for recognizing and looking into Paladin's CE accumulation rather than giving in to the "Give us Provoke" tripe.

Thank you for acknowledging that Paladin is the single strongest offensive Sword wielder in the game from a pure melee perspective, and that neither Vorpal Blade nor Chant du Cygne are anything to wag a finger at.

Thank you for balancing future adjustments around Ochain rather than nerfing the Empyrean shield in order to buff shields in general.

Thank you for being you and being awesome.

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Originally Posted by Rorrick

The difference here being that other jobs are clearly useful without Empyrean weapons, whereas Paladin requires them just to be serviceable. This is not a legitimate solution.

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Say they give PLD an ability to increase dmg without needing CDC. A PLD specific berserk or some such thing. What happens when you put a powerful buff like that in the hands of someone who already has Almace or Excalibur paired with Ochain or Aegis? You just sidelined every DD in the game. PLD would rule both ends of the offensive and defensive spectrum.

I'd say the ends justify the means. If Almace/Ochain make the job even semi-optimal in game again... then it's something to strive for is it not? Giving PLD's a non-empyrean solution to dealing better dmg could very easily unbalance the game as is. The reason I was pushing for a dmg buff like Fencer for so long is because it definately helps, but it's not a boost in a "2 hander update" sense (that and in my opinion a job trait that was practically designed for PLD, should go to PLD.)

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

Say they give PLD an ability to increase dmg without needing CDC. A PLD specific berserk or some such thing. What happens when you put a powerful buff like that in the hands of someone who already has Almace or Excalibur paired with Ochain or Aegis? You just sidelined every DD in the game. PLD would rule both ends of the offensive and defensive spectrum.

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In almost all of the current content Almace and Ochain/Aegis make a PLD comparable to a non Emp/Relic DD in the tank slot... If they gave a buff to PLD's offense it would likely make an Almace and Ochain/Aegis PLD comparable to an Emp/Relic DD for the tank slot, how is that broken and not how is should be?

Edit: I can see the point SE is making about how a buff to offense would make PLD a superior soloer but honestly who cares? RDM has been soloing content that took a group by design for years it would be no different.

wow a lot of words that mean nothing. so they really think pld is nothing. so i dont expect anything ever to come good from pld at all. ever. just keep on giving to sams and nin eventually we wont need healers

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

Say they give PLD an ability to increase dmg without needing CDC. A PLD specific berserk or some such thing. What happens when you put a powerful buff like that in the hands of someone who already has Almace or Excalibur paired with Ochain or Aegis? You just sidelined every DD in the game. PLD would rule both ends of the offensive and defensive spectrum.

I'd say the ends justify the means. If Almace/Ochain make the job even semi-optimal in game again... then it's something to strive for is it not? Giving PLD's a non-empyrean solution to dealing better dmg could very easily unbalance the game as is. The reason I was pushing for a dmg buff like Fencer for so long is because it definately helps, but it's not a boost in a "2 hander update" sense (that and in my opinion a job trait that was practically designed for PLD, should go to PLD.)

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They should be items that increase utility, not create it.

Having said that, I'm not even arguing for an attack buff (although the fears of Paladin's supposed solo-prowess seem somewhat laughable given what Red Mage has been doing for years and years). I'm arguing for any buff. Giving us better enmity tools is parallel to the real problem; there's no reason for Paladin to be around to use them.

lol, we had a tarudin in our setup there helping out with orthrus the other day, damn dog. anyway, it was pretty funny cause when acheron flame got spammed like crazy after we finished procs, it was just crazy. While all the DD's were smoldering corpses on the ground, Babyfish, the tarudin in question, was just fighting it by himself laughing about the little scratch he just took. Needless to say, I was laughing pretty hard myself.

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Originally Posted by PandyTwi

lol, we had a tarudin in our setup there helping out with orthrus the other day, damn dog. anyway, it was pretty funny cause when acheron flame got spammed like crazy after we finished procs, it was just crazy. While all the DD's were smoldering corpses on the ground, Babyfish, the tarudin in question, was just fighting it by himself laughing about the little scratch he just took. Needless to say, I was laughing pretty hard myself.

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Odd because a WHM + MNK can kill that dog without any issues assuming your WHM doesn't suck at keeping up with buffs/cures.

No one had an MDT set on them? I've never even seen Acheron Flames break 1k =/

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Odd because a WHM + MNK can kill that dog without any issues assuming your WHM doesn't suck at keeping up with buffs/cures.

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yeah, a whm mnk can when you don't have like 30 DD's on it making it spam tp moves. =P

Should be fighting 10 different NMs with 3 people each then, 30 people on one is dumb every time and asking for trouble. And honestly, unless that Paladin had an Aegis, they would not have had any real advantage over the other melees assuming they were halfway competent and had an MDT set and Barfira/Shell anyways.

Though, considering there were so many, it's really no surprise that they didn't have any sort of MDT set. Hardly a case to be made for Paladin, really. All you're saying is that bad players are bad.

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Originally Posted by PandyTwi

yeah, a whm mnk can when you don't have like 30 DD's on it making it spam tp moves. =P

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As greatguardian said, sounds like bad players and leaders not how awesome PLD is over other jobs.

oh come on guys, I was just sharing a story for a cheap laugh, so laugh already, for god's sake xP

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Originally Posted by PandyTwi

oh come on guys, I was just sharing a story for a cheap laugh, so laugh already, for god's sake xP

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It was a sad story the weakest tanking job there was the best geared... I don't see how that's funny especially since you were a part of the event in some way.

thread derailed again?

C'mon guys give feed back and suggestions. lol


I for one want Cure V for PLD, with some merit tweaks, and a little larger MP pool. Just a little bit

Uncap Spirits Within damage. If Ark Angel EV can do it, why can't we?

That would make a dent in Abyssea.

an ability similar to 3rd Eye.

[JA name]: Granting the ability to completely deflect an attack. (would be as helpful as shadows but not overpowering. since pld is supposed to be a master of defense i would think he could dodge an attack ever now and again)

and the dual modes like NIN or SAM has.

Defense mode: increase spellcasting speed and chance to prevent [previous JA name] from wearing off.

Offensive mode: increased double attack rate and crit hit rate.

SE are never going to push jobs away from their traditional identities.
Quit asking for PLD to get a job ability like Berserker. Its not going to happen.
Quit asserting that PLDs are supposed to be great/uber/awesome sauce DD's. They're not. Go back to WoW. This is the Final Fantasy realm.
Quit asking for stupid new defensive traits to be introduced just for PLD. They already have Parry & shield block, PDT, MDT, and a lot of other ways of mitigating both physical and magic dmg. Increasing effectiveness of already existing defensive traits is ok, but introducing new defensive traits is just pointless.

Best Idea I have heard here is to grant PLD a job trait where his/her presence in party causes everyone else's enmity to decay.
They would have to tweek it so that the more effort a PLD put forth the faster the enmity decay of his/her party/alliance would be.

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Originally Posted by Cursed

....job trait where his/her presence in party causes everyone else's enmity to decay.
They would have to tweek it so that the more effort a PLD put forth the faster the enmity decay of his/her party/alliance would be.

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I like this a lot.

I don't. There are other jobs in the game that can co-tank with Paladin, and other jobs in the game that frankly should be having hate over a Paladin in some situations. It is absolutely not a good idea to forcefully limit the pool of working tanks to a single job. I love co-tanking with Dark Knights, Samurais, Monks, Ninjas, and Warriors. There is no need to nerf one of the only useful non-Abyssea aspects of these other jobs (Drk, Nin specifically) just because people don't know how to tank without being handed perma-max Enmity and -100DT.

Edit: To be clear: Job isn't broken. Players just suck at it.

it was just another useless suggestion tossed on the forums lol relax

just saying that the defensive abilities pld currently has are very minor in regards to options available to DD's.
this has been pointed out in a dozen different posts.
anything pdt or mdt is mute. many jobs can equip the same junk and achieve the same effect.
and besides.... a job should be able to perform its duty w/o gear. gear should only be enhancing the abilities further.

strip all jobs down to nekkid and a weapon. nin. dnc. thf. mnk. can all still tank. even mages can still nuke.
nekkid pld is only gonna survive as long as sentinel is active and they can get those 2-3 cure4's off.

and a 5%~ DA and crit rate is hardly game-breaking nor berserker level. neither is being able to dodge 1 swing and a ws every so often.

again just ideas SE wont use anyway so its all irrelevant.

I was talking about the Enmity Sap Aura idea that the couple posts above me were lauding.

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Originally Posted by Cursed

Best Idea I have heard here is to grant PLD a job trait where his/her presence in party causes everyone else's enmity to decay.

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While the general concept of a Paladin reducing another player's enmity makes enough sense, this would be an awful way to implement it. Such an addition would actually make Paladin worse in some situations, and for the rest, it would muck up any hopes a player on another job might have of co-tanking with a Paladin.

I wouldn't complain like this, but every time it comes up, it's mentioned as an always-on Job Trait intended to affect a whole alliance and people inexplicably love the idea.

This just isn't a good idea, and the fact that it recurs more often than my nightmare about having ferrets for hands really puzzles me. Not as puzzling as "How do I shave when this stupid ferret won't lay paws on the razor instead of biting my elbow?", but still...

A better way to reduce another player's enmity would be through Cover becoming able to target any alliance member, which the development team mentioned they're already mulling over. The addition should be single target, whatever it is, if there is such an addition.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

A better way to reduce another player's enmity would be through Cover becoming able to target any alliance member, which the development team mentioned they're already mulling over. The addition should be single target, whatever it is, if there is such an addition.

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That actually sounds pretty good. If this was implemented I see one fault, I find it often times players ignores Cover on them and don't bother to stay in position. If the after effect of Cover still works by lowering their enmity, then I see Cover as just another friendly target ability to use on a random party member.



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Of topic:
I know there is some individuals who might disagree. If you have to, at least leave a positive suggestion in return instead of arrogance.

People refusing to stay in position for Cover is a player issue. No amount of buffs will fix stupidity.

Edit: Surcoat's cover boost is still relevant outside Abyssea, and frankly should be used whenever the timer is up whether it's needed or not.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

People refusing to stay in position for Cover is a player issue. No amount of buffs will fix stupidity.

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The idea about Surcoat's Cover. I prefer not to waste it. When there is a time when its actually needed then I'll use it, it just seems worthless to cover someone when they don't even need it. The enmity boost is not noticeable imo.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

thread derailed again?

C'mon guys give feed back and suggestions. lol


I for one want Cure V for PLD, with some merit tweaks, and a little larger MP pool. Just a little bit

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dont want cure V, want a higher tier cure but with same (bigger) enmity/HP healed than cure IV

I agree with Cursed. A JT that causes party enmity to decay quickly enough to make it difficult to cap would serve exceptionally well for the job, not just those who know the right people.

I disagree with a Job trait that decays enmity of those around you, for pretty much all the reasons GG Listed.

It would really hurt dual tank situations (Which are there) to the point of nerf-level, especially if it was 2 PLD tanks, then both tanks would have their Enmity decaying. (unless it was specifically mentioned PLD's would not be effected, and im sorry if it was)

It would be more acceptable as a Job Ability, for instance give Rampart that effect? When Rampart is active party members hate decays at 2x the rate or just decays at all (CE?)?

However I can't say its a necessity, however it could not hurt. But it as a permanent job trait would be unacceptable to me :|, and it would hurt as much as it'd help to a lot of players.

Wouldn't a JA that can be switched off and on solve the issue of dual tanking instead of a Trait?

E: Derp, should have read last post.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

The idea about Surcoat's Cover. I prefer not to waste it. When there is a time when its actually needed then I'll use it, it just seems worthless to cover someone when they don't even need it. The enmity boost is not noticeable imo.

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Generally I find that "saving" buffs for the opportune moment is the easiest way for people to justify wasting it by not using it at all. Unless they sit at max MP, they are never going to benefit more by activating the ability later. The only exception would be when the Paladin just doesn't understand how to maintain functional MP levels, in which case they really should be spamming Cover for the MP refill as much as possible.

Think of it like the difference between only flashing when someone else gets hate, and spamming Flash on the timer. Same basic concept.

Well its either a slight increase in enmity decay when a PLD is in party or all you other "tanks" are in for a RDM reality check lol.

Its easy to say "PLD is fine. y'all just suck". Probably coming from someone who takes 30 minutes to kill things in 2011 while everyone else is taking 1/3rd the time and has only ever used PLD to tank. But reality is even SE has admitted that the job is in serious need of some tweeks, beyond the changes they just implimented last month.

If PLD was "fine", the default tank, which it is suppossed to be, wouldn't be on the sidelines while classes that are suppossed to be purely attack based, tank. Voidwatch isn't enough content to encourage people to play the job. Aegis & Ochain & Almace shouldn't be the requirements for the job to have any involvment or necessity in the game.
Even with an Ochain and Aegis, a PLD will take considerably more dmg in situations such as Abyssea than classes such as MNK and SAM, and see much less of the mob's attention.

EDIT: As a PLD if you're not saving your buffs for the right situation, then you really do need to go back to 101 class. If you've never found a reason to save cover for that trigger happy blm or war in your shell then you just have no business saying anything about PLD lol. Sometimes you spam flash and sometimes you save it for just before a badly damaging tp move. If you've played PLD enough you get to know the cycle and routines of your enemy and can almost predict tp moves. Saving Flash for Tiamat after a touch down for example when you don't have any blms to stun and Ni for whatever reason isnt up. That's just one situation. There are hundreds more.

My post does sound a little insulting now that I read it. Not intended, had a long day at work and fought with the dumb ass IT people who work for me. :)
I hope you're not an IT person GG. that would just be too unforgivable.

ITT: Assessments of Paladin's performance based in Abyssea.

Paladin is fine. Outside Abyssea. I don't care if you don't do Voidwatch, that doesn't mean Paladin isn't awesome at it. Limiting the scope of the discussion to the mid-game bridge event that's already over and caters specifically to casual players is fallacious at best, malicious at worst. People with half a modicum of foresight neither need nor want adjustments based on Abyssean balance.

As for need to save Cover for people who "take hate", that's not a big deal if my TE is capped and they floor their CE by taking a hit or two. Which, you know, they can do because they're not morons and have PDT gear to swap into. A black mage taking hate period when they have Enmity Douse is just silly. Protip, taking damage decreases CE.

Edit: I find myself significantly less concerned about actually dying the majority of the time, so Flashing TP moves has never been a big deal. I would rather keep my TE sitting at the cap, or wherever is most beneficial for it to be depending on who/what my co-tank is.

You're talking about safety, I'm talking about efficiency. I know my DDs aren't idiots, and will be capping hate at some point by doing their jobs properly, so I trust that they can take a couple punches in their PDT sets on purpose in order to lower their CE. I know myself and my support staff aren't idiots, so I hardly have to worry about saving Sentinel for a damaging TP move in order to keep myself alive. Cover in particular is simply an MP recovery tool as far as I'm concerned, and there's no point sitting on it when you're essentially throwing away free MP for every second that the timer is up and it's not being used.

And no I'm not IT, just CS.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

ITT: Assessments of Paladin's performance based in Abyssea.

Paladin is fine. Outside Abyssea. I don't care if you don't do Voidwatch, that doesn't mean Paladin isn't awesome at it. Limiting the scope of the discussion to the mid-game bridge event that's already over and caters specifically to casual players is fallacious at best, malicious at worst. People with half a modicum of foresight neither need nor want adjustments based on Abyssean balance.

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Its not just based on Abyssea, although PLD missing out on the mainstream game action for over a year is enough greivance for the job to scream "WTF SE".
Even before Abyssea, PLD was on the decline. They had to nerf RDM, rather drastically to allow PLD some sort of merit end game. (BRDs were nerfed ffs... BRDS!)

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

As for need to save Cover for people who "take hate", that's not a big deal if my TE is capped and they floor their CE by taking a hit or two. Which, you know, they can do because they're not morons and have PDT gear to swap into. A black mage taking hate period when they have Enmity Douse is just silly. Protip, taking damage decreases CE. .

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There can be, as there once were, a lot more consequences for someone other than the tank stealing hate. Spike Flail, crippling AOE moves such as Fulmination, Meteor spam, causing the mob to move in range of the rest of the alliance and cast something like GoH. It's not always a simple round of attacks. Abyssea and post-75 end game thus far has seen everyone forget about specifics like distance. I've been playing with the same people for years as well, and you would be surprised just how often I have to tell them to keep 20 distance from me when im tanking. Becayse Abyssea has put the Noob back in them. While more often than not, someone else getting hate off you isn't that damaging (because mobs are just weak today), it sometimes causes a lot more dmg than just that single target (idiot) hitting the floor.

The trend with Paladin is fairly apparent. The easier the content is, the less useful Paladin is. The harder the content is, the more useful Paladin is. It's not so much that Paladin was getting weaker before Abyssea, it was simply that the content that we've all been doing for years and years was getting easier to the players.

Paladin still excels to the point of necessity whenever the content is difficult, and it will always suffer whenever the content is easy. I don't think this will ever change.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The trend with Paladin is fairly apparent. The easier the content is, the less useful Paladin is. The harder the content is, the more useful Paladin is. It's not so much that Paladin was getting weaker before Abyssea, it was simply that the content that we've all been doing for years and years was getting easier to the players.

Paladin still excels to the point of necessity whenever the content is difficult, and it will always suffer whenever the content is easy. I don't think this will ever change.

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yup, Agreed.

Okay, I'm not saying Paladin needs or does not need a job trait or ability that would decay enmity of people around it. That said:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

It would really hurt dual tank situations (Which are there) to the point of nerf-level, especially if it was 2 PLD tanks, then both tanks would have their Enmity decaying. (unless it was specifically mentioned PLD's would not be effected, and im sorry if it was)

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Specifically excluding PLD is a bad mechanic, as it makes PLD a better tank choice by nerfing other tank jobs that aren't PLD.

A job trait or ability that decays enmity of party members near the Paladin would be easy to implement in a way that wouldn't hurt tanks. Simply make it dependent on positioning like the way Thief has an improved crit rate when striking an enemy behind it or the way certain mobs perform certain weapon skills dependent of your positioning as in front of or in back of the tank.

This could be done easily by having it only affect jobs that are behind the Paladin or some other positional setup. Having a behind the Paladin Job Ability with limited duration would also help with SATA setups, and probably be the best way to implement the suggested enmity decay around a Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Okay, I'm not saying Paladin needs or does not need a job trait or ability that would decay enmity of people around it. That said:



Specifically excluding PLD is a bad mechanic, as it makes PLD a better tank choice by nerfing other tank jobs that aren't PLD.

A job trait or ability that decays enmity of party members near the Paladin would be easy to implement in a way that wouldn't hurt tanks. Simply make it dependent on positioning like the way Thief has an improved crit rate when striking an enemy behind it or the way certain mobs perform certain weapon skills dependent of your positioning as in front of or in back of the tank.

This could be done easily by having it only affect jobs that are behind the Paladin or some other positional setup. Having a behind the Paladin Job Ability with limited duration would also help with SATA setups, and probably be the best way to implement the suggested enmity decay around a Paladin.

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thumbs up. Good contribution.
Nice to read good some good posts after all the "waa waa give us berserker stance!" and the "y'all just suck ass" posts.

How about a job trait that works in the same fashion as Fencer but focus's on lowering delay time for main handed weapons?
or how about buffing the duration of rampart & sentinel to a 60 secs?.:p
just a thought..