KI-popped-NM Stealing

Maybe this was said on one of the previous pages but I didn't really bother to read through them. XD If a ZNM goes unclaimed and claimed by another outside of your pt if you go within a certain range of that ZNM it will turn red and become your NM again. (This happened 3x in a row with cheese hoarder one particular day) It was pretty awesome and I don't see why that would be a bad system to put in place for other such pop NMs. The coding for it is already there it seems like it would be a simple adjustment in a version update.

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Originally Posted by Sama

This thread only involved with KI-poping NM.

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My thread is talking about the same thing. You do realize sobek requires 3 ki to farm to pop him right? And it can take longer then a rani ki farm.

T

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

1. Losing claim for whatever reason happens to us all. Like Eeek said, take it like a man.

2. If you repeatedly keep losing claim because you die or otherwise screw up - seriously, suck less.

3. If there really is a glitch that makes mobs randomly go unclaimed for no reason at all, it can't be happening very often because otherwise there would be 4237647625 forum members SCREAMING about it on this forum.

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There's two threads with over 60 post each about the same situation. I think this qualifies.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

T

There's two threads with over 60 post each about the same situation. I think this qualifies.

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Nah, apparently there are just that many uninformed players that post on these boards.

Players that wipe too often, it seems.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

T

There's two threads with over 60 post each about the same situation. I think this qualifies.

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There are two threads made by 2 different people basically whining about losing claim on NMs, and a handful of people in both threads agreeing with them. It's not like there are 60+ replies to both threads made by people who all have experienced a mob going unclaimed for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

What about me taking 30 minutes to defeat? Because that is about on average the amount of time it takes me to kill a mob as SMN in A-Altep.
Either way, by forcing a 10 minute time limit, you just limit different procs
For those of us who don't have all that, 10 minutes can be a stretch.
Soloists, almost impossible.

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None of this is acceptable to me, you could invite a friend and do it in less then 30 on something other then smn, and actually get procs.
If 10 min isn't enough time to get the procs you want and kill it, it will force you to get better.
It will eliminate soloists

Battlefield status and a 10 minute timer would be an amazing thing to add now that I think about it more. It would eliminate so many problems, like noobs wiping/losing claim and whining about it, and eliminate slow peoples. I'm all for it, but only if it's 10 minutes or less.

Unfortunately SE has always catered to the lowest of the lowest common denominators with 60 min rage timer on Fafnir etc, so I wouldn't hold my breath for anything below 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

None of this is acceptable to me, you could invite a friend and do it in less then 30 on something other then smn, and actually get procs.
If 10 min isn't enough time to get the procs you want and kill it, it will force you to get better.
It will eliminate soloists

Battlefield status and a 10 minute timer would be an amazing thing to add now that I think about it more. It would eliminate so many problems, like noobs wiping/losing claim and whining about it, and eliminate slow peoples. I'm all for it, but only if it's 10 minutes or less.

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Not all my friends can be online at the same times as me. Isn't that a little selfish that you don't want me to be able to solo anything during a time where the mob is free and nobody is killing/camping it?

You honestly think that every soloist out there runs around and finds the mob you wish to kill, and start killing it 1 minute before you get there?

Besides, what if I want just the armor/weapon, and kill it during blunt time? I can get most of the procs as SMN during that time, so your reasoning of "actually get procs" doesn't apply there. Like Orison Earring. I can pop the NM just at the start of blunt time, proc blue if possible, and kill as quick as I can. I have been able to solo a lot of the gear I want from this method. Some of my KIs for harder to kill or +2 items NMs I would ask my friends to help me kill.

This 10 minute limitation is too short imo. 30 minutes seems to be SE's time of choice (BCNMs, Fay weapons, etc). That seems to be more reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Eeek

Nah, apparently there are just that many uninformed players that post on these boards.

Players that wipe too often, it seems.

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It has nothing to do with wiping I see you have not been paying attention.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

There are two threads made by 2 different people basically whining about losing claim on NMs, and a handful of people in both threads agreeing with them. It's not like there are 60+ replies to both threads made by people who all have experienced a mob going unclaimed for no reason.

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And there is less then a handful disagreeing with them that there is no problem. It does happen and it shouldn't plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Not all my friends can be online at the same times as me. Isn't that a little selfish that you don't want me to be able to solo anything during a time where the mob is free and nobody is killing/camping it?

You honestly think that every soloist out there runs around and finds the mob you wish to kill, and start killing it 1 minute before you get there?

Besides, what if I want just the armor/weapon, and kill it during blunt time? I can get most of the procs as SMN during that time, so your reasoning of "actually get procs" doesn't apply there. Like Orison Earring. I can pop the NM just at the start of blunt time, proc blue if possible, and kill as quick as I can. I have been able to solo a lot of the gear I want from this method. Some of my KIs for harder to kill or +2 items NMs I would ask my friends to help me kill.

This 10 minute limitation is too short imo. 30 minutes seems to be SE's time of choice (BCNMs, Fay weapons, etc). That seems to be more reasonable.

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Not to mention there are times it can take longer than 10 minutes to proc. due to various reasons and complications that can occur.

You run into another problem with such a short timer as well, being not everyone is fully decked out with the best equpment, a emp/relic weapon, and the experience killing certain monsters, everyone will not be on the same level nor will perform at the same level. Which means

1. Your either forced to invite more people to kill things quickly, which likely increases competition for the items you or your friends are after after, ninja lotters, inter alliance drama, ect.

2. You risk further alienating alternative non-popular jobs more than they already are, in order to optimize setups for fights to go in your favor.

3. You destory any chance for solo jobs to do anything worthwhile, when it's well known jobs like BST are not really invited for anything that's killed quickly.

4. You would more likely have a small group of people following anyone thats shouting for pickup groups in jeuno, trying to steal your mob perchance it goes unclaimed for going over the time limit.

5. And this is a big one. It would almost defeat the purpose of fighting anything that has high hp without brewing. I'd despise being forced to full alliance zerg or brew anything that has more than 50k hp, especially when I do not like exping/cruor farming continueously for extended periods of time.

dont Disengage the mob as a melee it can cause the mob to go yellow

I know a simple fix, don't let it go unclaimed

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Originally Posted by sruon

I know a simple fix, don't let it go unclaimed

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I know an even simpler one: Taking all the asinine players who like to compromise the enjoyment of legitimate players out of FFXI.

Attitudes like yours and "too many uninformed players wiping too much" on the last page are not becoming of you.

I'm doubting the claim system is so deeply embedded that tweaks are impossible, too. At its simplest, mobs have states where we can act them. Let's call 0 idle/yellow, 1 claimed to your party, 2 claimed to your alliance, and 3 claimed to another group. As long as the state is 0, 1, or 2, we can act on it. And while I do believe the one person per mob claim rule should remain, which catches Charm up in a loophole as an offensive 'claiming' action against another mob, other circumstances where mobs go yellow despite not being idle shouldn't be happening. Doesn't matter if you think who it happens to sucks, was failing, or whatever justification you might use to feel okay about taking their mob. Yes, waiting sucks, but that's more of a problem with mob availability than any given group's skill set. So really, things should get more ??? pops or have lowered cooldown timers. VNMs are still a mess, and as a point of contention, skew people toward malicious behavior because we all hate wasting our time getting nothing.

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Originally Posted by Starcade

I know an even simpler one: Taking all the asinine players who like to compromise the enjoyment of legitimate players out of FFXI.

Attitudes like yours and "too many uninformed players wiping too much" on the last page are not becoming of you.

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itt: claim mechanics require information

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You spent hours to get KI; popped the NM, KI is lost, but during the fight the NM went unexpectedly unclaimed for whatever reasons and all the sudden some greedy thief steals it.

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If you wipe, then the fight is lost. If it goes unclaimed, then no one has hate on it and anyone else's claim is legitimate. GMs have upheld this countless times. Should those people really let the mob despawn when you have no chance of killing it? Then the pop has TRULY gone to waste.

Yeah, it sucks. Yes, you now wasted your time farming ki's. Yes, you should have been more careful. Yeah, taking an nm you worked for won't earn said person a "good person of the week award".

Farm more ki's and hope it goes smoother. If it's the wasting time part that you dont like, hate to bring it to you, but thats what an mmo is. Shrug it off and be happy that you get to have 15 more minutes of fun with random strangers.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Not all my friends can be online at the same times as me. Isn't that a little selfish that you don't want me to be able to solo anything during a time where the mob is free and nobody is killing/camping it?

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A good melee and a mage can kill just about anything in 10 minutes inside abyssea, your argument of not having friends doesn't hold any merit against this. Even Pchan has 1 friend.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You honestly think that every soloist out there runs around and finds the mob you wish to kill, and start killing it 1 minute before you get there?

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Yes.
Bad groups are everywhere too.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

This 10 minute limitation is too short imo. 30 minutes seems to be SE's time of choice (BCNMs, Fay weapons, etc). That seems to be more reasonable.

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It is much more likely they will add some huge time that is not not required if they do this, but that is not what I think is a good idea. I'm all for making people be better and play smarter.

Pretty sure pchans friend isn't at beck and call, just as I'm sure korpg's dont center their play time or real life around him.

Suck it up and wait for the person to either kill it, it kill them, or for it to go unclaimed. If they claim again faster than you, learn to claim faster. It's not that hard.

Ultimately it makes no difference if someone gets your mob or it despawns, at least someone got some good out of the work you were unable to finish. You gain nothing if it depops or if someone else gets the kill so why change it.

Mob's don't "Randomly" go white. Either you weren't paying attention or someone in your party lied to you. I know it sucks to lose a pop, and trust me i hate vultures/leeches as much as the next person, But its simple to keep a mob claimed.

If i die when I'm tanking an NM, The first thing my friends know to do is DoT/Hit/Chi-blast/Voke/some action on the mob so it does not go White. This is something every group should do. If the main tank dies, Someone act on the NM because he was likely the last person with hate. Its because frankly, if people are watching you fight, its not to watch you win, its hoping you lose. Its a sick world, but we wont change that with 1 thread. We just need to take preventative actions.


Using simple actions, taking precautions, and paying attention when you fight can prevent mishaps, But mishaps still happen, but there will always be a reason for it, even if you can't think of one, mobs do not simply go white 'randomly'.

Also, on Wiping to a mob... If you fully wipe you can expect a group to take the NM. I personally will not claim an NM until its White and Idle, If i see Reraise III from Apoc? Sorry you're too late. I'll kill it and give you the drops if you're not a dick. (more times than not, They're dicks though) Its understandable, They just wiped to a mob most people can Duo, So they're probably upset.

Either way, when you realize you're wiping to the point half your group is more concerned with running in circles away from the NM rather than claiming it to keep it red, the fight is over, expect someone to claim it. I won't say its "right" or what have you, even though personally i believe if a group is truly wiped/wiping the mob is free game.

Now, If you're all still alive and fighting, and it accidently goes White for some reason (Disengaging, Tank die, etc) I let it be, Its a mistake/mishap that happens, It can be prevented, but sometimes people slip up. If I'm waiting to pop something i let them fight it (usually farm TE in the mean time).

To avoid further Rambling I'll try to stop here. Add any points i missed to the next response.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

A good melee and a mage can kill just about anything in 10 minutes inside abyssea, your argument of not having friends doesn't hold any merit against this. Even Pchan has 1 friend.

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I didn't say I don't have any friends, I said that they are not all online at the same times I am. Its like a hit/miss. Sometimes I'm online and so are they, other times we just missed each other.

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Yes.
Bad groups are everywhere too.

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So follow them.

Odds are, they will wipe and you have a free NM, maybe with yellow/blue procs if you claim fast enough

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It is much more likely they will add some huge time that is not not required if they do this, but that is not what I think is a good idea. I'm all for making people be better and play smarter.

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So am I, but forcing others to do it this way only limits the amount of jobs that could do what you are requesting.

Pretty soon you will have nothing but NINs and WHMs on every server. Then where do you go from there?

People still identify themselves with a single job? I'm not a NIN, I just have NIN 90. They are two different things, and represent a difference in the attitudes of various sides of the playerbase.

People who only identify themselves with Job A, or Job B, are always going to be more likely to feel left out in one form of content or another, because the entire game revolves around people being able to switch to any of the 20 jobs as the situation dictates. Sure, it's silly to expect every player to have 10+ jobs, but, at the same time, FFXI is most definitely not built to cater to people with only one job. (For the record, I only have 7 90's but they fill pretty much every conceivable role, so I'm able to do just about anything)

We, as players, are expected to have at least some sort of variety in our game repertoire. NIN is solid in Abyssea, but was low-mid tier in a lot of 75-esque content. RDM was the most efficient healing job in the game in some 75-esque content, but it sorely lacks that ability in Abyssea. Different events are most efficiently done with different job combinations. Smart players are able to adapt to these different situations and use whatever job is best suited for the task at hand. It is only the stubborn player who refuses to budge and tries to shove a square peg into a round hole.

Just as an offhanded thought though, SE could just make it where the drops fall to the original group that had claim on the monster like they do with abyssites, atmas, and throphys as long as the mob doesn't go idle. As ubsurd as it might sound it would prevent random peeps from just claiming a mob and killing it when it goes yellow for whatever reason.

Because people don't totally already claim KI mobs, then intentionally wipe solo so that really stupid parties can claim it before it idles and give the guy a free KI.

No, thanks.

Actually SE released a fix for this about 8-9 years ago. Here's how you do it.

1. Pop or claim the NM
2. Don't mass wipe
3. Kill the NM.

Done! You heard it here first on the OFFICIAL FFXI FORUMS!

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Originally Posted by Yarly

Actually SE released a fix for this about 8-9 years ago. Here's how you do it.

1. Pop or claim the NM
2. Don't mass wipe
3. Kill the NM.

Done! You heard it here first on the OFFICIAL FFXI FORUMS!

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Orly?

Anything else you can tell us, o wise sage of FFXI?

I find the amount of "just suck less" posts and related pretty disturbing. I would never take someones NM, popped or time spawned if they died. Only if the entire alliance decides to just give up and HP, i'd attack it.

Guess nobody is nice anymore.

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Originally Posted by Zarabi

I find the amount of "just suck less" posts and related pretty disturbing. I would never take someones NM, popped or time spawned if they died. Only if the entire alliance decides to just give up and HP, i'd attack it.

Guess nobody is nice anymore.

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That depends on your definition of nice, really.

My general policy is always to wait for a full wipe assuming I've had no contact, or polite contact with the group that's fighting. However, if the group that's fighting and half-wiping to the NM has a moron or two that likes to run their mouth in /say or /tell, then I'll be significantly less inclined to do them any favors.

Likewise, if I take an NM off a failing group either by request of their party leader or due to a wipe and they aren't complete assbags to me for it, I'll often invite them to lot on half the drops (yes, half. If you want full drops, don't wipe). If the group refuses to lose gracefully and decides to spam me with hate tells/says/shouts, there's no way in hell I'm inviting them for anything. What's worst of all is when people start demanding that you invite them for drops right after chewing you out. Do they really expect someone to give them free stuff after being screamed at?

With that said, I still feel like people are basically being sore losers in this thread. If you let people die, fail to take the proper actions to maintain your claim, or otherwise wipe, expect to lose your monster. It should not come as a huge surprise to anyone when other people take claim when you fail. When that happens, and it's your own fault, accept the loss gracefully and move on. Chalk it up as a learning experience and take steps to prevent a loss the next time.

The only legitimate complaint that could be had here would be players intentionally curebombing or MPK'ing with other mobs/NMs in order to steal an NM, and that is GM'able.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

That depends on your definition of nice, really.

My general policy is always to wait for a full wipe assuming I've had no contact, or polite contact with the group that's fighting. However, if the group that's fighting and half-wiping to the NM has a moron or two that likes to run their mouth in /say or /tell, then I'll be significantly less inclined to do them any favors.

Likewise, if I take an NM off a failing group either by request of their party leader or due to a wipe and they aren't complete assbags to me for it, I'll often invite them to lot on half the drops (yes, half. If you want full drops, don't wipe). If the group refuses to lose gracefully and decides to spam me with hate tells/says/shouts, there's no way in hell I'm inviting them for anything. What's worst of all is when people start demanding that you invite them for drops right after chewing you out. Do they really expect someone to give them free stuff after being screamed at?

With that said, I still feel like people are basically being sore losers in this thread. If you let people die, fail to take the proper actions to maintain your claim, or otherwise wipe, expect to lose your monster. It should not come as a huge surprise to anyone when other people take claim when you fail. When that happens, and it's your own fault, accept the loss gracefully and move on. Chalk it up as a learning experience and take steps to prevent a loss the next time.

The only legitimate complaint that could be had here would be players intentionally curebombing or MPK'ing with other mobs/NMs in order to steal an NM, and that is GM'able.

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This pretty much completely sums up my attitude toward the matter.

Unfortunately most people love to run their mouths off, and I enjoy making a fool out of them.

Also if you are using a strategy that causes the fight to take longer than 'acceptable' then I would probably steal at the first sight of yellow name.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

The only legitimate complaint that could be had here would be players intentionally curebombing or MPK'ing with other mobs/NMs in order to steal an NM, and that is GM'able.

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When mob goes yellow and someone claimed it that's not a violation of SE and because of that, some people are intentionally doing this to others when the alliance is half dead or just taking any chances that they can to get your NM/drop.

Not everyone is as logical and kindly as you, this is a MMO and SE is making it cheap.

Like I already said, if your alliance is half dead and fails to maintain claim over your monster then it is your own loss. It's no one else's fault if you die. When that happens, take the loss gracefully and move on.

Personally, I always expect to lose my NM if I ever let it go white. Not because people are bad and mean and vultures, but because losing claim constitutes a failure to some degree on my part or the part of my group. There are consequences for mistakes. All there is to do is to learn from it and not make the same mistake the next time.

All I'm hearing is everyone should flash provoke stun or something and suck less but by saying you have to do extra stuff just to keep a monster claimed means there is a problem with how a monster stays claimed, yes we know how to work around this flaw but it is a flaw that needs to be fixed! Many times ive seen NMs go unclaimed when everyone is and has done something to it.

Doesn't matter if somehow you noob it up real bad and everyone gets charmed it shouldn't go unclaimed but it does.

SE wont reply to stuff like this they only reply to dumb threads like dynamis maps...and remove 5 min wait on Kindred Seals. Fix the real problems and stop saying it would take too much man power ect.... What are we paying you for? Get more man power!

You don't have to do "Extra" stuff to keep an NM claimed unless you're being clumsy or bad about fighting it in the first place. There is zero problem with the claim system. One person has a claim on the mob at any given time. It is absolute folly, borderline incompetence, for someone to intentionally take the last action against a mob and then immediately die. There is also a fair window of time between when the person with claim dies and when the mob goes unclaimed or idle, in which time someone should be acting on the mob in some fashion regardless.

There is no problem with how an NM stays claimed. Monsters don't randomly go yellow. The claim system is 100% predictable, and simple enough for any group to work with if even one person bothers to read how it works. "Fixing" this would only give people a safety net wherein they are allowed to make more mistakes before losing their monster, while at the same time encouraging Zombie tactics and allowing groups which are too weak for an NM to hold it indefinitely.

If you are allowed to double your stats and still manage to suck out of control you bet your ass I'm taking your mobs.

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Originally Posted by Zarabi

I find the amount of "just suck less" posts and related pretty disturbing. I would never take someones NM, popped or time spawned if they died. Only if the entire alliance decides to just give up and HP, i'd attack it.

Guess nobody is nice anymore.

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It is alot of American players. The Japanese usually don't do this. They usually wait, ask how many pops you got left or they even come back. I have had so many pops stolen or people go out of turn and don't reply to you by American players. I don't know why you guys are so rude. Everything in Abyssea can be obtained within time. Most drops are pretty common you guys don't have to be so disrespectful to other players. We are human beings just like you treat us with some respect.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

It is alot of American players. The Japanese usually don't do this. They usually wait, ask how many pops you got left or they even come back. I have had so many pops stolen or people go out of turn and don't reply to you by American players. I don't know why you guys are so rude. Everything in Abyssea can be obtained within time. Most drops are pretty common you guys don't have to be so disrespectful to other players. We are human beings just like you treat us with some respect.

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Weeaboo goggles. People are people no matter what language they speak or what country they're from. You'll find just as many horror stories about JP players as you will about NA players, and as many nice JPs as you would nice NAs.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Weeaboo goggles. People are people no matter what language they speak or what country they're from. You'll find just as many horror stories about JP players as you will about NA players, and as many nice JPs as you would nice NAs.

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I don't though. I play most of the day and this is what I run into everyday.

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Originally Posted by svengalis

I don't though. I play most of the day and this is what I run into everyday.

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And I could tell you that I run into reasonable NA but complete asshole JP players all the time too, and I wouldn't be lying. In my personal experience, I've been treated like trash by the JP endgame base pretty much constantly, while the NA endgame base on my server is pretty chill.

I'm just not ignorant enough to apply my personal experiences to each race on FFXI. I know damn well there are plenty of chill, cooperative JP players. And I know damn well there are plenty of asshole NA players. Just because I see more dickish JP and nice NA in my experiences doesn't make it the norm.