Low manning sky gods are in the same boat as not using atmas/buff, but for 18 the fights were a joke which most LS took. If you could find 5 others back in the sky days to take on that low man then I see no reason you couldn't do the same with abyssea with out atmas or crour buffs. Now if you are mad that other people can get the same gear as you that you think are not as skilled then you have problems cause its been the same way since 75 with body chunking LSs.
Abyssea outside of Abyssea - Yay?
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05-03-2011, 06:18 PMRavenmore
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05-03-2011, 06:29 PMZyeriis
Skillfully low manning sky gods because more people would mean less reward (and people being uncertaintys as they are: finding and relying upon) versus always available atmas/buffs are hardly the same thing. Even without the powerful atmas there are a ton of things that can be straight-up soloed in abyssea, let alone low-manned. This attributes to the fact that things are easier, because they require even less people? It is true that if you take a bst to sky these days and want to fight any and every thing, bst is going to win but thats due to the level and ability increase with the content remaining as it was. The content we are given in it's place is laughable.
I'm not 100% on what you mean by "body chunking LSs" but I can take a guess as to what you mean. Linkshells that just threw bodies at stuff? Yeah, those are called n00bs and are used as a water mark to show the scale in skill? I don't deny that these people still exist (in far greater quantity) and they still wipe against things someone with the aforementioned skill can easily handle low man but the level of skill required to low man these things has dropped dramatically thus further showing the difference between the mindless body throwing and skillful strategy and tactics. -
05-03-2011, 06:47 PMRavenmore
The content before was laughable. Nothing in sky needed any more of a strat then rdm/drk chainspell stun or rng shadow bind. Then Kirin was either kited or zerged down weres the strat in that. To kill anything all you had to do was check wiki and see how someone else killed it or try what worked in the past. The way some are coming off though is that the unskill are getting gear so its lessing thier own since of accomplishment but they have always been here.
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05-03-2011, 07:52 PMXilk
Its been said a few times, but I'd like to be explicit: Atma is not what makes Abyssea Easy.
Primeval brew is.
With atma available to you are Shinryu or Rani too easy? Is Ironclad Triturator? Empousa? Indrik?
No, the only thing that makes them easy, is primeval brew.
some jobs have an easier time w/ certain NM's vs others. This is all good, and frankly I think the NM's in Abyssea scale quite well. Remember visions is for level 80, scars 85, Heroes 90.
Also, the mature (as in educated and experienced, not necessarily behavior) player base figures out new content rather quickly.
Abyssea has been wonderful. It has so many new rules to figure out:
Weakness Targetting
Light Aura affecting gameplay here
Atma
EXP Chain changes
Cruor Chain Changes
Dominion
Bastion
Abyssite
New Job abilities/traits
new equipment
I'm not sure what the people claiming "no new content" are whining about. this is ALL new content. Its been VERY VERY interesting and fun.
It also has a finite life cycle, which many players have complained about. Why? are you that afraid of the future? its a game, not your life. Don't be too invested. i rather like it this way. I can "complete" some content. There is a sense of satisfaction. I can always go back to abyssea to try it again a different way, but I am not stuck there. I'm very much looking forward to going thru alot of the ToAU endgame content now, as I've skipped much of it.
I look at it this way: I prefer a tv series with a finite 2 or 3 seasons. It has a beginning and middle and an end. Don't give me Smallville, Buffy, Dragonball Z or Bleach. They start w/ really interesting characters and premise, BUT they drag ON and ON and stagnate. MMO's CAN go on a long time, but FFXI was stagnant. Abyssea was a big Injection of new life. Adding new and dynamic content makes it continually new and refreshing and interesting.
I think the Devs are doing exactly the right thing. They are trying out new stuff. Sometimes changes are BIG sometimes they are small. I might like more STORY content as well, but I know that as a company SE is not prepared to do that in FFXI RIGHT NOW. an mmo is a dynamic thing. Time will tell if they ever add another expansion or not. All the whining in the world won't change that.
Atmacite: This very much sounds like a new type of atma but not for abyssea. Well outside abyssea doesn't mean you'll be able to use it everywhere. It might be only good for voidwatch. OR maybe we will be able to use it anywhere, but it is not necessarily going to be as strong as atma. It sounds like they are using the atma concept and remaking it w/ a tweak.
This pattern has been active in ffxi forever. Besieged>Campaign>Bastion>WoE
SKY, SEA, ZNM, VNM, AByssea, Voidwalkers
The ideas are the same for many of these, but they are listening to feedback and trying variations to get it just right.
I would point you at a few differences we see in atmacite:
The power of them will vary.
I read this to mean that I can probably equip at atmacite that gives me +5% crit damage. I probably have to buff it up by expending cruor to maybe get it up to +15%. It might even be that you need to expend extra cruor everytime you want to adjust the power level of an atmacite. IF atmacite is useful all over vana'diel, then currently 'older' content will continue to get easier. The challenges will almost always get in the new content anyway.
The whole implementation of atma (and I presume atmacite) really allows us to tweak our jobs and support job combinations in different ways. This has long been a fun, engaging strong point of FFXI. taking atma outside of abyssea just lets us stretch this mechanic and possibility even futher. I know I still have alot of experimenting I want to do w/ different atma combinations, even after I have most gear I want from abyssea.
Individual treasure caskets: They've been listening. This is a great solution
Stones & time limits to voidwatch fights: They've been listening. this is a very elegant solution. The stones imply there will be a wait time, a staggering to how often you can repeat an act. This means one small group will not be able to endlessly occupy an NM. hello all you Gakumatz frustrated players out there. This also means that no one will be able to hold an NM too long, impeding other players from participating in content. Then again its probably the same players who whine about these things as who whine about not being able to spam the same NM over and over again themselves. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
weakness targeting & light auras: These are great tools to include many jobs and make content valuable to different players for different reasons. both these aspects help the game be more cooperative and fun. Its another elegant solution to player elitism. Its not all about best dd anymore. You are aiming for certain staggers along withthe fight. The staggers and jobs you want may be different depending on your goal and the goals.
SE devs are clearly showing that they are keeping ideas that players have loved and trying to adjust less popular ideas to make them better. -
05-03-2011, 09:01 PMKarbuncle
Hey guys! Jobs being useless is completely new and never happened before!
Does no one remember back in the day when RNG Was THE only DD? Or perhaps when RNG was nerfed and BLM become the best DD?
Then SMN came along as the best DD because of it being hateless? Then maybe SAM and WAR rising to power as the "Best" DDs in the eyes of the community?
No one remembers the rise of Souleater Zergs? Where DRKs were considered the best DD? then came SE Counter-measures and DRKs feel from power slightly.
Jobs being useless has been a part of the game since day 1, Its not the Devs fault per-say, Its also the communities fault, And i don't even like using the word "Fault", cause that implies theres blame to be had. I don't think i can "blame" a community that chooses the quickest, most efficient path to victory as a norm. This game is full of time sinks, being able to lessen some of them through efficiency isn't a bad thing.
So stop complaining about so and so jobs being useless, when its been happening since day 1, It is nearly impossible to perfectly balance every job to have a use that always guarantees an invite/spot., the players, players, will always opt for the one that does the best DD/Tank/Healing ability and take them to make things go quicker.
But whats fun in an MMO, is that for every group demanding the best, theres another who will take people in regardless of job, and work out a proper strategy. Or you can simply do things with friends only, Like i do. I trust my friends though, I know thats apparently not common here.
Jobs becoming "Obsolete" or "Less than useful" is going to happen from day 1, to the day the servers close, Someone who pigeon holds themselves to one job only is going to feel that pain. There is no reason you should only level 1 out of 20 jobs anyway.
My favorite job is THF, but i have 12 other level 90 jobs now so i can always be ready to help people around me and be very flexible. I don't expect everyone to have 13 jobs, but have some variety in your life. Level 2~3 jobs so theres a higher chance you won't become useless with the next update.
I'll say it again, it is nearly impossible for SE to perfectly balance all 20 jobs to be useful all the time, people need to accept as a community who values speed, jobs will become "Obsolete". this isn't SE's fault, This isn't Abysseas fault, this is, for all intents and purposes, human nature. We want the fastest route from A to B, and sometimes your favorite job doesn't fall into "the bottom line" or A > B player driven content.
It sucks i know, I have PLD 90, and DRK 90, I know the woes of both being unused, Hell i almost considered selling my PLD gear... But i'm sticking it out. its like a roller coaster, the ups and downs of jobs rising/falling to power.
Get used to it :( its here to stay, and stop acting like this kinda of thing never happened before Abyssea. -
05-04-2011, 05:16 AMChocobits
Why do people keep using RDM/DRK as an example of how pre-Abyssea content required no skill? Why don't we liken RDM/DRK to a Brew? Losers used that, others didn't. What about NOT using 2 hours on sky gods, for instance? You have several pop sets, how would that even work? Did everyone have a COR mule? Did you do "easier" events while 2 hours were down? I don't understand the mechanics of the gimpnicity (I use fakewords too sometimes). We straight tanked as normal through the Chainspell and went on with our lives, popping multiple firebirds back to back. Fire resist sets, fully merited Shell/Bar merits, 2 mages coordinating their cures (though our tanks weren't exactly hurting to the point of needing cure bombardment). Skill, you know? Maybe not :/
I agree largely with what you're saying Xilk, but I want to disagree that Atma isn't a game changer on less difficult mobs. There would be much less competition and cross camping if a disgusting full Aurore nin or thf couldn't solo many of the trigger mobs, for instance.
As far as gear goes, we've always gone through a cycle where some gear becomes obsolete. My point was that Empyrean gear pushed the envelope on that process off the desk, through the door, all the way to the post office where they sent the letter delivery verified return signature requested. BLM Body +2? 11 MAB/MACC? Set procs for BLM and BLU dealing 11k+? Both the Atma and the gear are just too strong, and that strength has become a crutch for weaker and less organized groups to kill mobs that would normally be far beyond them. The game today is less balanced than it's ever been. The argument that a small group of friends can go do Sobek, Amhuluk, zone bosses and what have is actually an argument to the contrary. Small social groups should NOT have the ability to do that, and even skilled duos shouldn't either.
On to the Abyssea mobs' strength. This is the real issue, as has been stated above. The NMs are laughable. It's all you can do to NOT kill a mob while trying to find a proc while it's being stubborn and not giving hints. Once you find that proc, the mob is dead in seconds. We did about 40 Chloris one night, and (because we didn't need to proc) each one lived for about 17 seconds max. No 2 hours or fancy buffs. While we appreciate the ease of kills, allowing us to accomplish a large number of kills toward Emp weapons, I would much rather see much more difficult mobs that reward more items per kill. Maybe I'm an "old**g", but to me great reward should come with great difficulty. That's where I get my jollies. I'm not liking how people can hand in their adventurer's coupon at the Cavernous Maw and be rewarded with 50 gil and their choice of ultimate, dream-worthy gearsets. -
05-04-2011, 05:39 AMAliekberThe level cap was raised because SE recognized that requiring 18 people for events was not helping the game, but hurting it. Higher-end players in dedicated shells may have liked getting everyone in the shell into Einherjar for one huge brawl, but to most people in the post-ToAU days, 18-man fight = you and your 3 friends, and 14 WG /shout incompetents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobits
Server merges are a (bad, annoying) solution--at this stage of the game, everyone has their friends they want to play with. They don't want to join some crappy HNM shell to wait in line for 6 months for a shot at gear, and Abyssea is designed with that in mind. Not only is FFXI growing older, so is its playerbase. Players who started in college have families and careers now, and not as much time to dedicate to the game. As long as SE can keep them hooked, they don't care how many hours per day they play, as long as they stay subscribed. This is a good thing.
Hate to play the RL card here, but the no-lifers had their day in FFXI. In order for the game to survive it needs to cater to more casual play (in time investment, not necessarily difficulty). The hardest part of FFXI has always been schedule coordination, anyway (or, to paraphrase an Alla sig, "the hardest part is finding 5 other people who aren't retarded"). -
05-04-2011, 05:55 AMRavenmore
Thing is you didn't need rdm/drk rng worked just as well if you had more then one pop. Sky gods were weak as crap anyway so diffculty was out the window. So all that was left was the low drop rates. Genbu was a joke, dragon/bird shadow bind run out of range. Thats using the tools SE gave us, just having merits and gear are the same thing. Its not skill its planning. Your trying to say sky god were hard in fact anyone with half a brain could kill them even low man. It also goes back to you own since of accomplishment is lessen by some one you deem to have no skill cause how easy you deem it to be. Once you do the mobs so many times as it took to get the drops you wanted you could do them in your sleep.
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05-04-2011, 06:12 AMRavenmoreSo how the is this any differnt then you lowmaning sky gods back at 75. Why is it that most HNM LS fell apart after abyssea. It was seen you no longer had to bother with people like you. If I don't have to put up with people I don't like just to get gear I'm happy. This is a MMO but I should be able to do what I want with only my friends.Some of my friends came from LSs I have been in some have come from helping new players on missions point is if we can go out and have fun with out a LS going ape that I didn't show up for a event or for doing something with other friends from other shells. Most endgame shells would kick you on the spot if you were doing sky gods outside the shell even if you never held pops.Quote:
The argument that a small group of friends can go do Sobek, Amhuluk, zone bosses and what have is actually an argument to the contrary. Small social groups should NOT have the ability to do that, and even skilled duos shouldn't either.
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05-04-2011, 07:06 AMBhujerbaQuote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
Except that you and the rest of FFXI community never read or remember the new direction of job balance, taken from [VanaFest 2010] FFXI:Job Adjustments Update by SE:
Quote:
Overall Direction
Up until now, most job adjustments have been implemented with ease of party-forming in mind. From this point onwards, we plan to shift the focus towards ease of participation in endgame content. The role of each job will also come under review.
Currently, the role of debuffing enemies is the exclusive domain of only a few jobs, but we intend to examine ways to enable more professions to perform similar roles, empowering each with the capacity to handle a wider range of situations. [SIZE=5]Our goal is to achieve-without sacrificing the uniqueness of each job-greater ease of participation in endgame content and provide the opportunity for all participants to contribute equally[/SIZE].
The scope of our vision for job adjustments does not stop there, however. Maintaining battle balance remains one of our highest priorities. As such, we intend to conduct reviews on an ongoing basis and introduce new equipment and adjust weapon skills as necessary. It is anticipated that the level cap increase will impact the balance of certain elements more than others. We will keep a close watch on these areas and, if the situation demands, review and reconsider even the adjustments that have been announced. Our ultimate goal is to provide the most rewarding, balanced play environment possible to all adventurers.
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/eve...010/index.html
Sometimes, I pity ffxi players for their ignorance of other MMOs and what they achieved, in WoW (yes WoW) when LK expansion was released, Blizzard Devs managed to balance their class system so much that all classes and their specs (equivalent to 30 jobs in ffxi) are completely 100% useful for their roles, it didn't matter what class you are, you can tank? then you can tank just as good as any tank of any class, and each class remained Unique.Quote:
It is nearly impossible to perfectly balance every job to have a use that always guarantees an invite/spot
why is it so hard to accept the equality in usefulness and utility when it comes to job's roles and let ppl enjoy their favorite playstyle? is it because the problem existed and it always worked that way? or is it because ffxi allow 1 character to switch job so you treat it as playing single ff game while somehow ignoring completely the bag space problem? (tho I can say the problem diminished slightly with the slip system) or is it because you are afraid Jobs will lose their uniqueness? (which by the example above can be avoidable, not to mention that Jobs and Classes will always be unique, many ppl confuse "roles" similarities with "jobs" uniqueness, when these Job's Roles are meant to be equally useful).
... say all the tanks are in ffxi equally good where it doesn't matter if you are a ninja or a Paladin, you can come whatever and be able to tank effectively any given fight, isn't this what ppl want?
In the end, this SE new vision, and I was very pleased when I saw this direction in 2010, and its very apparent in Abyssea except that they ruined it somehow by the weakness system/not developing other jobs correctly (lack of Cure V) etc.., still I'm glad that SE finally recognized the issue and working to achieve this goal. -
05-04-2011, 07:16 AMDijanaI am completely aware there have always been jobs considered useless. Like I said my main is dnc, and back when I lvled that I was told by plenty of people it was useless. I never got into HNMs and other hardcore endgame stuff for a reason, I had friends in a big endgame ls, my own fiance was a leader, who would let me tag along to events just to help though I was never officially a member, I saw exactly what was required of them. I did do some events with more casual LSs however. The difference though is that back then it wasnt nearly as bad. There were still things you could participate in as other jobs, you could fill in the same roles as the 'useful' ones, even if it wasnt quite as effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenmore
But that was without the proccing system. With that, if you dont have the particular jobs then there's no point to come as something else. I didnt say it in my last post, I think that is the biggest problem. As someone said earlier Im too lazy too go back and look for, I think there should be specific procs for other jobs as well, and Im really hoping this update includes that. Hopefully to balance out not being able to have every single proc (unless people want to bring every single job with them) they can make it less effective, or more controllable somehow on knowing which kind of procs you will need. -
05-04-2011, 08:01 AMRavenmore
The weakness system is'nt the only thing, players being to lazy to put thier own runs together and want someone else to do it. Another thing for seals you don't need yellow they drop well enough with out with just a thf. Now only thing I would change on the proc times for blue, do away with the times and make it random like red. One thing I would hate is having procs for every job that would mean taking 20 people with only 18 alli slots. Last thing been said over and over go /nin and you can proc those spells the blu would love you for it.
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05-04-2011, 08:20 AMBhujerba
the weakness system can be easily solved and expanded to the rest of the jobs, by having more than one ability/spell proc the same weakness.
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05-04-2011, 08:22 AMWenceslao
i think its simply disgusting, a bad joke from SE DEV team, what we want is not take abyss monsters scattered around Vana'diel, what we want is an actual challenge, im tired of being asked to come BLM to here, BLM to there, just because my other jobs aren't required to proc this will be the same NM we can find in abyssea just without the worrie of build azure to get lots of TE (now is set to a 30mins fight), if i knew at end game, my COR and DRG would have such limitations, i'd never leveled it.... anyway i think im being so dramatic for something that hasn't come yet, hope i can throw my words to the trashcan once it's implemented and give a good use to my other jobs than just a BLM....
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05-04-2011, 08:27 AMSparthos
Here's my take:
Abyssea up till Scars was great. Mobs were moderately difficult, EXP alliances needed skill and proper light builds in order to work, Emps were still relatively difficult to obtain and overall we had improvement from Vision of Abyssea.
Everything went to hell with Heroes. Things got way too easy with regards to things building lights and EXP alliances went from needing players present to EXP well (excluding cleaves) to being downright mindless with Dominion Ops. EXP parties are 80% AFKs and 20% skillups now.
Shinryu leading to 200k brews was just ridiculous and turned and already easy expansion series into a joke. Really SE, you couldn't just leave brews @2m and make some gear you know... rare? Shinryu is supposed to be difficult yet all it comes down to in this wild world of Abyssea is landing blue procs then bitching when you get Apkallu eggs.
Everything the previous two expansions (Vision/Scars) added became a joke when you could effortlessly solo or do everything short of Panto/Apademak etc with 3-4 people. Is it any wonder all the game boils down to for many is cranking out Emps? lol
SE went overboard. Soloability is good and all but an MMO is not an MMO when you do not promote true party play. Abyssea took party play and boiled everything down to less than 6man play. The game needs to have some reason for alliances to exist again.
Post-Abyssea seems to be more of the same, I can't wait for certain jobs to be shafted because they can't proc. lol -
05-04-2011, 05:36 PMLeonlionheart
Everyones still talking like they know exactly how this update will be.
SE still has it in their power to make this next update great and challenging. Even if we still get Atma, it could still be fun difficult content, like 80cap abyssea was.
Plus, there won't be brews. Hopefully.
Plus, the atmacite seems to be different from atma. Upgradeable through cruor? Maybe it'll be customizable.
The new battlegrounds (using Kindred Crests and High Kindred Crests) don't seem to have anything to do with abyssea either. -
05-04-2011, 06:08 PMsvengalisActually it sounds more like Rift and Abyssea had a baby and SE called it Void Watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocobits
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05-04-2011, 06:29 PMAlukati agree that a thf is just enough to make seals drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenmore
duo'd many NMs for seals with my whm friend and we have almost always got 1-3 seals with th effectiness 7-9.
i had an EG LS a while ago.and there are for sure no useless jobs if u now what roles they can be used for.
if someone did want to go dnc then i placed him DD pt to debuff the mob with steps and to heal the other DDs if they did get hit sometimes.
bst / smn with their pets can do sacpulls.
rngs could attack from far away, makes curing them unneccessary, due to the fact that they won't get hit by AoEs.
Blu mage can do sheep song as backup AoE sleep.
pups with blm puppet did support the blms with nukes (and yes it was nice in dynamis that they could melee and nuke the mob, like pld during invincible and thf during perfect dodge).
so if ppl say a job is useless they don't get the advantages and disadvantages of them. -
05-04-2011, 07:19 PMLeonlionheart:| this post is totally naive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukat
I'll tell you why so many people call jobs useless: Because WHM, WAR, MNK, BLM, and DNC do it so much better.
WAR trumps all DD by a huge margin, except maybe DRG on birds (no abyssea NM that drops +2 is a bird but Amhuluk(kind of) and Bennu.)
MNK tanks everything better than anyone, except maybe NIN or DNC, depending on the mob.
BLM has all that BLM stuff, its pretty self explanatory, considering yellow procs and such.
DNC tanks and deals respectable damage with just Evisceration, and can cure itself, and can haste it's party.
Even knowing that I have a member come DRK because DRK is really quite efficient at stuns (being able to cap haste through gear is huge) and has better survivability than WAR, and can do all procs bar staff/club/polearm which can be covered by WHM and I just pray it's not Raiden Thrust. DRK can also TP off a mob without dealing damage, which can be invaluable on those weakling NMs that drop KI.
However, if you are pugging something and want to do it with as little members as possible which would net you more rewards, you can completely cover every region of abyssea with: THF (Only really for TH, occasional tanking) WAR, NIN, BLM, BLU, BRD, WHM, and MNK (only if the NM can hit harder than 2k). Everything else is just kind of there. -
05-04-2011, 07:56 PMKarbuncleThats why i used the qualifier word "nearly". See!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhujerba
Awww.... You pity us for ignorance? well I pity you and your lack of reading comprehension! I don't recall saying it was impossible. ALSO FYI, I'm rather positive before the "savior lich king" there were quite a few useless jobs/spec combos in WoW. In fact, there are still a lot of useless(Less-than-useful) spec-combo. also, you act like there aren't a few job/spec combos people prefer over other jobs, yet there are. Bet when you used that WoW comparison you didn't expect to be arguing with someone who knows the game huh? Even in WoW players (good ones) Still opt for the best jobs to get something done, just like we do here.Quote:
It is nearly impossible to perfectly balance every job to have a use that always guarantees an invite/spot
I do admit its not to an extreme extent to the point a job is 100% Useless, Like PLD is now. But even a PLD has a small use, you just need an Ochain and an Almace for it.
Wow achieved a good balance, FFXI Will likely in the future. but the problem is FFXI's job systems don't have the "Customizability" of the WoW classes. We don't technically have "specs", we can't spec our PLD for pure DD output, Unfortunately we're dealt with what they give us. that is why its harder to balance jobs in FFXI, than it is in WoW.
Secondly, your first quote is hilarious, you act like that hasn't been their goal since day 1, they're just announcing that now as fluff text to give us some idea of their plans. their goal from day 1 has always been to maintain a balance between the jobs (what MMO wouldn't...?), so acting like they're suddenly now just begining to try is ignorant.
you call me ignorant, when you assume the above!
HA HA! Irony.
Beyond that, As proof they've always cared about job Balance. the Nerf RNG? Why all the buffs to SAM? why the nerfing of Magic on NMs for a Little while (Eventually reverted). Remember the 2-handed buff? I do. Every big job buff/nerf has been SE's intent on "Maintaining Balance", Ergo, Your first quote is meaningless as this has been their goal since FFXI started, so i don't know why you bring it up like its some new goal they have.
I believe we'll get a balance in the future, my original quote which you blew out of context, was that people needed to stop complaining about 1-2 jobs being less than useful, and give SE time to fix it, since they always try to fix and balance the jobs in time.
Its harder to fix jobs in FFXI than WoW because they have two fundamentally astronomically different job systems. You may as well be comparing Apples to Race cars. -
05-04-2011, 08:10 PMAlukat
u obviously missed the point that my post was about pre-abyssea times, or did u just start to play when abyssea was released and don't even know them?
"war trumps all DDs" lol
i'm doing 2-3k eviscerations w/o SA and my thf is geared for Mercy stroke and for evisceration it is totally gimped.
MNK best tank, that's pretty silly, i haven't found a mob yet which i couldn't tank as thf.
just because monk has counter for some more damage it doesn't suppose to mean that mnk should be the only way to tank or nin or dnc.
solo'd koios, was tanking gamayun,bennu,maere,resheph,carabosse (we killed it trio and we saw a 10 ppl ally wiping lol) and some more mobs. as soon my trio/quadro group is done with the +1's we go for +'2. and then i can tell u that some or even many of them can be tanked by thf. -
05-04-2011, 08:21 PMKarbuncle
I think its funny he mentions DNC but not THF. THF > DNC For everything. you know why ;O? THF can evade as good, DD as good, and stay alive as good (why wouldn't you bring a whm :D!), and THF Gets TREASURE HUNTER :O!!!
Thf wins ;P -
05-04-2011, 08:33 PMLeonlionheartThough I mentioned THF being all you need to tank actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
MNK still does it several times better, THF can get 1 shotted too easily by too many things. (Gates of Hades comes to mind, even though most of the time you will resist it. Fulmination too.)
MNK gets 4k HP in Heroes zones most of the time.
Oh did I mention MNK does several times better DPS? Victory Smite is a monster.
Although DNC will always be safer than THF.
lol WAR WRECKS THF DD. There's no competition. I do 5k Ukko's every 3~8 seconds, that's if Retaliation doesn't proc, WHICH it does, and often. 2~3 Ukko's and you'll be capped on hate, and that means that you will retaliate ALOT. Trust me, there's nothing that can out do WAR in reality or on paper in terms of PURE DD. Get's killed easily though, so that's a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukat
WAR/SAM gets sekka, hello 5k light. Meditate too, which allows you to SC without sekka if you're worth you're mettle at the job.
For the record I've played since pre-CoP, I'm just not delusional about jobs just because they are my favorite.
EDIT: underlined WRECKS. -
05-04-2011, 08:39 PMKarbuncleSeems like an opinion Leon :|. so here's mine :O! I'd take a good WHM + THF combo over a DNC + WHM combo any day. DNC has that PDT thing, But THF has about 40 EVA on DNC in Job Traits/Skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
While DNC can cure itself/etc, Won't matter if your WHM is worth spit :X. Don't get me wrong, DNC is a wonderful job, I'd just prefer THF over it when i duo with a WHM.
(MNK of course being a winner if i can find a THF or i dont want to TH the mob).
edi: I dunno if you already mentioned it, but DRG > WAR in terms of DD if the WAR does not have Ukko's Fury. Drakesbane spits all over Raging Rush. DRG also builds TP Faster with aids from Spirit/Soul jump so they WS more often.
WAR is amazing, but its not the "Best" DD unless said WAR has an Empyrean WS. even then... Victory Smite and MNKs natural DPS really gives WAR a run for its money.
and yes, WAR >>> THF in terms of DD lol. They're not miles apart like they used to be, but theres a clear winner. -
05-04-2011, 08:45 PMLeonlionheartI agree, but I've seen Itzpapalotl 1 shot too many THF's to really believe in the job's tanking ability. Fire Break doesn't happen often, but if you're relying on the THF to be the only tank and it's HP gets down to 3% from one attack if your WHM is doing something else (hasting, barfira, something that has to be done) the THF is royally screwed. DNC however, can put fan dance up and cure itself, and in bad situations Violent Flourish saves lives. (Particularly on Briareus and/or any NM that has long 'readying' for their abilities.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
Most NMs that won't really matter though, and THF can do it just fine. Hell THF barely needs utsusemi their evasion is so out the roof, allowing different subs and such. Most can even keep their DD gear on when tanking because of the pure skill/evasion they get before gear.
MNK with victory smite is great, yeah. But it's WAR's WS frequency that pushes it above the rest. Raging Rush usually does 2.5~5k for me, when I didn't have Ukko's yet. Ascetic's Fist does about 2~4k, TA spikes it particularly high if Impetus is charged. But MNK tp is a lot slower than WAR's.
I think DRG with Drakesbane and a 5hit is the only thing that could keep up with WAR, especially on birds.
But when Ukonvasara comes into play, or even Maschu +2, every other DD is ruined. -
05-04-2011, 08:47 PMKarbuncleDont DNC and THF have generally the same HP/Resistance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
If a THF is one shotted, so will the DNC in any situation. (unless its a physical move and the DNC already had the Fan-dance or W/E up). -
05-04-2011, 08:50 PMAlukatwait...what? 5k ukko's every 3-8 seconds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
now explain me pls how u get 50tp in 1,5-4 seconds with a 482 delay weapon.anyway u wouldn't even need /sam for solo light, sc window is 1-5 seconds after last ws, so if u time it right u should be able to do light anytime w/o /sam. -
05-04-2011, 08:51 PMLeonlionheartProbably, but if a DNC's HP is reduced severely in one hit (like to less than 10%, which is usually what Fire Break from Itz does) then the DNC can, assuming he has TP, heal himself if the WHM is otherwise preoccupied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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05-04-2011, 08:52 PMKarbuncleYah, those are rare situations but i see your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
THF Could also pop a Temp item though, or use Perfect dodge. If you're in that kind of situation more than once a fight you probably need a better WHM anyway :P
But again, i do see your point. You feel safer with DNC, I'd probably feel safer on THF :X -
05-04-2011, 08:54 PMLeonlionheart482 with 25% true haste from gear = 6.03 seconds. Add Hasso = 5.22, Haste = 4.05, March x2 (without +2 hands or Royal Guard's Flute) = 2.29 seconds. Atma of the Apocalypse allows TA, that's a minimum of 4.58 seconds for 100 TP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukat
Retaliation lowers that, I've gotten 100% TP in less time than it takes for Ukko's animation to finish. -
05-04-2011, 08:56 PMLeonlionheartYeah in the end it comes down to personal preference. If you know what you are going into before a fight you usually have no problem with the fight anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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05-04-2011, 09:00 PMNeofire
Too the people hoping things will go back to the old ff11 days you need to wake up from that dream because its not going to happen. Their is a reason why SE made it similar to Abyssea, hmm maybe because ALOT of people liked it how abyssea was done?
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05-04-2011, 09:13 PMAlukatwell that is pretty exceptional. triple attack from AA atma has only a 15% proc rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
u need 2.29 seconds per swing.
ukon gives 13 tp per hit. sub sam 15 stp.
thats 14,95tp per hit.
14,95tp*3 (i'll give u now a 100% proc rate on AA)*2 (rounds) = 89,7tp. ok could work due to the fact that u get some tp back after ws.
now lets calc with your 2,29 seconds per swing for 14,95tp per swing. 85 (guess u get 15tp back after ws)/14,95tp = 5,68 swings ,6 because u cant get tp for a half swing, for 100%. now 6 swings* 2,29 seconds = 13,74 seconds for 100%tp.
a fact is that u don't have a 100% triple attack rate, and that why i highly doubt that u can ws every 3-8 seconds.
btw gimme a brd and i ws every 2-8 seconds >.>
Edit: in best case u need the 4,58 seconds between ws and in worst case u need 13,74 seconds. -
05-04-2011, 09:22 PMLeonlionheart+2 war body is 8 stp, rajas ring is 5, brutal is 1. that's a 6hit. VV allows even more leeway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alukat
I thought that was a given, Who DOESN'T have those pieces if they have a freaking Ukon? At least a 6hit should be the FIRST THING you do after you get it anyway.
Let's now say the BRD has the March +2 Horn (Like 6k at AH) and the AF3+2 hands (+1 march) I now swing at 1.71 seconds per. Ukko's Fury gives about 17 TP back depending on TA, DA. With 5 hits, that's 8.55 seconds. With 2 TA that's 3.42.
Retaliation is probably a 50% proc rate. Assuming a mob isn't slowed, they usually hit about every 3 seconds, and they DA often, sometimes even TA. -
05-04-2011, 09:24 PMLeonlionheart
Oh, and with +49 STP that's a 5hit, so you have even more chances (Need 2 DA for 3.42 seconds per 100%)
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05-05-2011, 01:48 AMBhujerbabefore LK yes there was lol specs in the game , they have yet to achieve a good balance, Ret used to be call LOLRET in TBC just like LOLPUP and I happen to like both styles >.>, but after LK specially after the introduction of DF, I was never, EVER been denied a spot in group, raid or bg due my class or spec.Quote:
ALSO FYI, I'm rather positive before the "savior lich king" there were quite a few useless jobs/spec combos in WoW. In fact, there are still a lot of useless(Less-than-useful) spec-combo. also, you act like there aren't a few job/spec combos people prefer over other jobs, yet there are. Bet when you used that WoW comparison you didn't expect to be arguing with someone who knows the game huh? Even in WoW players (good ones) Still opt for the best jobs to get something done, just like we do here.
thats what i'm saying!! all classes whiners in WoW are crying about 5-10% difference in performance and we all know humans will never stop whining lol, but comparing to FFXI? where job performance varies GREATLY by design! to the point where it become nearly 100% useless if your job doesn't bring to the table just as much as the next one, sure everyone can DD, everyone can proc and every tank can tank, but if you cant proc, DD or tank as good as this "job" your job slot in pt/ally validation will drop to 0 (unless there is free slots yay! :D .......... :()Quote:
I do admit its not to an extreme extent to the point a job is 100% Useless, Like PLD is now.
so in order for a job to even function you just have to collect BiS gear! you know damn well this is a horrible design >.>.Quote:
But even a PLD has a small use, you just need an Ochain and an Almace for it.
umm it wasn't actually...did you read the first paragraph?Quote:
Secondly, your first quote is hilarious, you act like that hasn't been their goal since day 1, they're just announcing that now as fluff text to give us some idea of their plans. their goal from day 1 has always been to maintain a balance between the jobs (what MMO wouldn't...?), so acting like they're suddenly now just begining to try is ignorant.
they only cared to keep the jobs functional enough without making them all appealing in end game, "ease of participation in endgame content" wasn't exactly about the the content itself but about the jobs themselves becoming easier to participate and do well in end game since the entire topic was talking about jobs balance., tho I could see why someone would take that line out of context, thinking what they done in abyssea..:confused:Quote:
Up until now, most job adjustments have been implemented with ease of party-forming in mind. From this point onwards, we plan to shift the focus towards ease of participation in endgame content. The role of each job will also come under review.
if you think they cared about jobs back then why do you think it took them 8 years to make them useful and desirable? (which they were never been close), but in 1 year they made all the jobs in a very good position (despite the new flaws they created...)
(what do you think they are shifting from?)
I didn't compare it to class I compare to spec, their roles, DD spec of any class are almost equal in DD department (except to pure classes, 5% difference by design), in FFXI DRK role is only DD same as WAR (pure jobs), why they shouldn't be equal as DD? (SE striving to do this, that's why they are buffing DRK next update)Quote:
Its harder to fix jobs in FFXI than WoW because they have two fundamentally astronomically different job systems. You may as well be comparing Apples to Race cars.
I was comparing spec to spec in WoW, though I agree the Talent(spec) system technically impose a limit on Hybrid Classes, which in FFXI this limit is nearly non-existing (e.g. 1 min recast between DD and support/healing abilities) , so they have to be just extra careful buffing these jobs (which IMO hardly matter, remind of what happen in WoW when blizzard decided to close the gab between hybrids and pures , the cries reached the skies but after it was done... it wasn't so bad, sigh-.-) , otherwise the same concept apply to jobs roles, in almost any MMO with roles system (Tank/Healer/DD/Support/etc...).
I think this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic, I apologize :( plus english is not my main language I also apologize for my rudeness, I just hoped the community would understand and accept equality in Roles and why ppl are asking for it and realize (or know..) that SE "New vision" is actually to reach that goal, its already been decided. -
05-05-2011, 02:05 AMsvengalisI don't know how anyone could find sky or dynamis(I hated dynamis, such a huge waste of time if you were not farming relic) more funner then Abyssea. Abyssea is way better to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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05-05-2011, 02:14 AMKarbuncleDon't apologize for off topic discussions! This is probably the most interesting thing they've read all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhujerba
Also, on the part I've selected, thats the problem in the comparison. WoW its easy for every job to maintain some Balance, because each job has a variety of ways to play it through specs. Where as in FFXI, we get what we're given, and there is very little "Variety". So its harder to balance.
Thats what I'm sayin'!
And as for the Ochain/Almace part, I didn't say it was easy/right/fair or whatever :| i just said the job wasn't ENTIRELY useless. I still hate that PLD needs Empyreans to be useful, but at the same time, if i had both, It'd be fun :D -
05-05-2011, 02:53 AMBhujerbaI agree and understand you in the balance issue to a point, job utilities in this game are very limited and unique outside of magic spell-set, one might say its harder to balance because of that, but I believe balancing jobs is a lot more easier than you think, specially Pure jobs, besides remember, most of the imbalance in WoW came from trying to balance PvE Vs PvP, but in FFXI they don't have to worry about that, I believe Job balance can be achieved faster and easier, SE just started a year ago (Blizzard took took them 3 years..and that's BLIZZARD)plus we are in a transition yet we are in a very good position and most ppl are happy with their favorite jobs :D , it means SE did something right (contents like abyssea trivialized some jobs still an issue).Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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05-05-2011, 03:08 AMKarbuncleOne of the biggest problems with PLD though, is its a job designed for an era of FFXI long passed. Its a blood tank, and blood tanks are just criminally ineffective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhujerba
So in order to fix PLD, the job itself in core needs to be rethought. PLD/NIN fixed a lot of PLD's problems by basically removing blood-tanking from the picture. Still, There needs a bit more to be done.
If we could spec our jobs in FFXI to certain things, I'm sure there'd be no obsolete jobs in FFXI too :X, There'd be best combos (durp), but i think no job would be truly obsolete.