Abyssea outside of Abyssea - Yay?

[Ravenmore]

Low manning sky gods are in the same boat as not using atmas/buff, but for 18 the fights were a joke which most LS took. If you could find 5 others back in the sky days to take on that low man then I see no reason you couldn't do the same with abyssea with out atmas or crour buffs. Now if you are mad that other people can get the same gear as you that you think are not as skilled then you have problems cause its been the same way since 75 with body chunking LSs.

[Zyeriis]

Skillfully low manning sky gods because more people would mean less reward (and people being uncertaintys as they are: finding and relying upon) versus always available atmas/buffs are hardly the same thing. Even without the powerful atmas there are a ton of things that can be straight-up soloed in abyssea, let alone low-manned. This attributes to the fact that things are easier, because they require even less people? It is true that if you take a bst to sky these days and want to fight any and every thing, bst is going to win but thats due to the level and ability increase with the content remaining as it was. The content we are given in it's place is laughable.

I'm not 100% on what you mean by "body chunking LSs" but I can take a guess as to what you mean. Linkshells that just threw bodies at stuff? Yeah, those are called n00bs and are used as a water mark to show the scale in skill? I don't deny that these people still exist (in far greater quantity) and they still wipe against things someone with the aforementioned skill can easily handle low man but the level of skill required to low man these things has dropped dramatically thus further showing the difference between the mindless body throwing and skillful strategy and tactics.

[Ravenmore]

The content before was laughable. Nothing in sky needed any more of a strat then rdm/drk chainspell stun or rng shadow bind. Then Kirin was either kited or zerged down weres the strat in that. To kill anything all you had to do was check wiki and see how someone else killed it or try what worked in the past. The way some are coming off though is that the unskill are getting gear so its lessing thier own since of accomplishment but they have always been here.

[Xilk]

Its been said a few times, but I'd like to be explicit: Atma is not what makes Abyssea Easy.
Primeval brew is.
With atma available to you are Shinryu or Rani too easy? Is Ironclad Triturator? Empousa? Indrik?
No, the only thing that makes them easy, is primeval brew.

some jobs have an easier time w/ certain NM's vs others. This is all good, and frankly I think the NM's in Abyssea scale quite well. Remember visions is for level 80, scars 85, Heroes 90.
Also, the mature (as in educated and experienced, not necessarily behavior) player base figures out new content rather quickly.

Abyssea has been wonderful. It has so many new rules to figure out:
Weakness Targetting
Light Aura affecting gameplay here
Atma
EXP Chain changes
Cruor Chain Changes
Dominion
Bastion
Abyssite
New Job abilities/traits
new equipment

I'm not sure what the people claiming "no new content" are whining about. this is ALL new content. Its been VERY VERY interesting and fun.

It also has a finite life cycle, which many players have complained about. Why? are you that afraid of the future? its a game, not your life. Don't be too invested. i rather like it this way. I can "complete" some content. There is a sense of satisfaction. I can always go back to abyssea to try it again a different way, but I am not stuck there. I'm very much looking forward to going thru alot of the ToAU endgame content now, as I've skipped much of it.

I look at it this way: I prefer a tv series with a finite 2 or 3 seasons. It has a beginning and middle and an end. Don't give me Smallville, Buffy, Dragonball Z or Bleach. They start w/ really interesting characters and premise, BUT they drag ON and ON and stagnate. MMO's CAN go on a long time, but FFXI was stagnant. Abyssea was a big Injection of new life. Adding new and dynamic content makes it continually new and refreshing and interesting.

I think the Devs are doing exactly the right thing. They are trying out new stuff. Sometimes changes are BIG sometimes they are small. I might like more STORY content as well, but I know that as a company SE is not prepared to do that in FFXI RIGHT NOW. an mmo is a dynamic thing. Time will tell if they ever add another expansion or not. All the whining in the world won't change that.

Atmacite: This very much sounds like a new type of atma but not for abyssea. Well outside abyssea doesn't mean you'll be able to use it everywhere. It might be only good for voidwatch. OR maybe we will be able to use it anywhere, but it is not necessarily going to be as strong as atma. It sounds like they are using the atma concept and remaking it w/ a tweak.

This pattern has been active in ffxi forever. Besieged>Campaign>Bastion>WoE
SKY, SEA, ZNM, VNM, AByssea, Voidwalkers

The ideas are the same for many of these, but they are listening to feedback and trying variations to get it just right.
I would point you at a few differences we see in atmacite:
The power of them will vary.
I read this to mean that I can probably equip at atmacite that gives me +5% crit damage. I probably have to buff it up by expending cruor to maybe get it up to +15%. It might even be that you need to expend extra cruor everytime you want to adjust the power level of an atmacite. IF atmacite is useful all over vana'diel, then currently 'older' content will continue to get easier. The challenges will almost always get in the new content anyway.

The whole implementation of atma (and I presume atmacite) really allows us to tweak our jobs and support job combinations in different ways. This has long been a fun, engaging strong point of FFXI. taking atma outside of abyssea just lets us stretch this mechanic and possibility even futher. I know I still have alot of experimenting I want to do w/ different atma combinations, even after I have most gear I want from abyssea.

Individual treasure caskets: They've been listening. This is a great solution
Stones & time limits to voidwatch fights: They've been listening. this is a very elegant solution. The stones imply there will be a wait time, a staggering to how often you can repeat an act. This means one small group will not be able to endlessly occupy an NM. hello all you Gakumatz frustrated players out there. This also means that no one will be able to hold an NM too long, impeding other players from participating in content. Then again its probably the same players who whine about these things as who whine about not being able to spam the same NM over and over again themselves. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

weakness targeting & light auras: These are great tools to include many jobs and make content valuable to different players for different reasons. both these aspects help the game be more cooperative and fun. Its another elegant solution to player elitism. Its not all about best dd anymore. You are aiming for certain staggers along withthe fight. The staggers and jobs you want may be different depending on your goal and the goals.

SE devs are clearly showing that they are keeping ideas that players have loved and trying to adjust less popular ideas to make them better.

[Karbuncle]

Hey guys! Jobs being useless is completely new and never happened before!

Does no one remember back in the day when RNG Was THE only DD? Or perhaps when RNG was nerfed and BLM become the best DD?

Then SMN came along as the best DD because of it being hateless? Then maybe SAM and WAR rising to power as the "Best" DDs in the eyes of the community?

No one remembers the rise of Souleater Zergs? Where DRKs were considered the best DD? then came SE Counter-measures and DRKs feel from power slightly.

Jobs being useless has been a part of the game since day 1, Its not the Devs fault per-say, Its also the communities fault, And i don't even like using the word "Fault", cause that implies theres blame to be had. I don't think i can "blame" a community that chooses the quickest, most efficient path to victory as a norm. This game is full of time sinks, being able to lessen some of them through efficiency isn't a bad thing.

So stop complaining about so and so jobs being useless, when its been happening since day 1, It is nearly impossible to perfectly balance every job to have a use that always guarantees an invite/spot., the players, players, will always opt for the one that does the best DD/Tank/Healing ability and take them to make things go quicker.

But whats fun in an MMO, is that for every group demanding the best, theres another who will take people in regardless of job, and work out a proper strategy. Or you can simply do things with friends only, Like i do. I trust my friends though, I know thats apparently not common here.

Jobs becoming "Obsolete" or "Less than useful" is going to happen from day 1, to the day the servers close, Someone who pigeon holds themselves to one job only is going to feel that pain. There is no reason you should only level 1 out of 20 jobs anyway.

My favorite job is THF, but i have 12 other level 90 jobs now so i can always be ready to help people around me and be very flexible. I don't expect everyone to have 13 jobs, but have some variety in your life. Level 2~3 jobs so theres a higher chance you won't become useless with the next update.

I'll say it again, it is nearly impossible for SE to perfectly balance all 20 jobs to be useful all the time, people need to accept as a community who values speed, jobs will become "Obsolete". this isn't SE's fault, This isn't Abysseas fault, this is, for all intents and purposes, human nature. We want the fastest route from A to B, and sometimes your favorite job doesn't fall into "the bottom line" or A > B player driven content.

It sucks i know, I have PLD 90, and DRK 90, I know the woes of both being unused, Hell i almost considered selling my PLD gear... But i'm sticking it out. its like a roller coaster, the ups and downs of jobs rising/falling to power.

Get used to it its here to stay, and stop acting like this kinda of thing never happened before Abyssea.

[Chocobits]

Why do people keep using RDM/DRK as an example of how pre-Abyssea content required no skill? Why don't we liken RDM/DRK to a Brew? Losers used that, others didn't. What about NOT using 2 hours on sky gods, for instance? You have several pop sets, how would that even work? Did everyone have a COR mule? Did you do "easier" events while 2 hours were down? I don't understand the mechanics of the gimpnicity (I use fakewords too sometimes). We straight tanked as normal through the Chainspell and went on with our lives, popping multiple firebirds back to back. Fire resist sets, fully merited Shell/Bar merits, 2 mages coordinating their cures (though our tanks weren't exactly hurting to the point of needing cure bombardment). Skill, you know? Maybe not :/

I agree largely with what you're saying Xilk, but I want to disagree that Atma isn't a game changer on less difficult mobs. There would be much less competition and cross camping if a disgusting full Aurore nin or thf couldn't solo many of the trigger mobs, for instance.

As far as gear goes, we've always gone through a cycle where some gear becomes obsolete. My point was that Empyrean gear pushed the envelope on that process off the desk, through the door, all the way to the post office where they sent the letter delivery verified return signature requested. BLM Body +2? 11 MAB/MACC? Set procs for BLM and BLU dealing 11k+? Both the Atma and the gear are just too strong, and that strength has become a crutch for weaker and less organized groups to kill mobs that would normally be far beyond them. The game today is less balanced than it's ever been. The argument that a small group of friends can go do Sobek, Amhuluk, zone bosses and what have is actually an argument to the contrary. Small social groups should NOT have the ability to do that, and even skilled duos shouldn't either.

On to the Abyssea mobs' strength. This is the real issue, as has been stated above. The NMs are laughable. It's all you can do to NOT kill a mob while trying to find a proc while it's being stubborn and not giving hints. Once you find that proc, the mob is dead in seconds. We did about 40 Chloris one night, and (because we didn't need to proc) each one lived for about 17 seconds max. No 2 hours or fancy buffs. While we appreciate the ease of kills, allowing us to accomplish a large number of kills toward Emp weapons, I would much rather see much more difficult mobs that reward more items per kill. Maybe I'm an "old**g", but to me great reward should come with great difficulty. That's where I get my jollies. I'm not liking how people can hand in their adventurer's coupon at the Cavernous Maw and be rewarded with 50 gil and their choice of ultimate, dream-worthy gearsets.

[Aliekber]

The argument that a small group of friends can go do Sobek, Amhuluk, zone bosses and what have is actually an argument to the contrary. Small social groups should NOT have the ability to do that, and even skilled duos shouldn't either.

The level cap was raised because SE recognized that requiring 18 people for events was not helping the game, but hurting it. Higher-end players in dedicated shells may have liked getting everyone in the shell into Einherjar for one huge brawl, but to most people in the post-ToAU days, 18-man fight = you and your 3 friends, and 14 WG /shout incompetents.

Server merges are a (bad, annoying) solution--at this stage of the game, everyone has their friends they want to play with. They don't want to join some crappy HNM shell to wait in line for 6 months for a shot at gear, and Abyssea is designed with that in mind. Not only is FFXI growing older, so is its playerbase. Players who started in college have families and careers now, and not as much time to dedicate to the game. As long as SE can keep them hooked, they don't care how many hours per day they play, as long as they stay subscribed. This is a good thing.

Hate to play the RL card here, but the no-lifers had their day in FFXI. In order for the game to survive it needs to cater to more casual play (in time investment, not necessarily difficulty). The hardest part of FFXI has always been schedule coordination, anyway (or, to paraphrase an Alla sig, "the hardest part is finding 5 other people who aren't retarded").

[Ravenmore]

Thing is you didn't need rdm/drk rng worked just as well if you had more then one pop. Sky gods were weak as crap anyway so diffculty was out the window. So all that was left was the low drop rates. Genbu was a joke, dragon/bird shadow bind run out of range. Thats using the tools SE gave us, just having merits and gear are the same thing. Its not skill its planning. Your trying to say sky god were hard in fact anyone with half a brain could kill them even low man. It also goes back to you own since of accomplishment is lessen by some one you deem to have no skill cause how easy you deem it to be. Once you do the mobs so many times as it took to get the drops you wanted you could do them in your sleep.

[Ravenmore]

The argument that a small group of friends can go do Sobek, Amhuluk, zone bosses and what have is actually an argument to the contrary. Small social groups should NOT have the ability to do that, and even skilled duos shouldn't either.

So how the is this any differnt then you lowmaning sky gods back at 75. Why is it that most HNM LS fell apart after abyssea. It was seen you no longer had to bother with people like you. If I don't have to put up with people I don't like just to get gear I'm happy. This is a MMO but I should be able to do what I want with only my friends.Some of my friends came from LSs I have been in some have come from helping new players on missions point is if we can go out and have fun with out a LS going ape that I didn't show up for a event or for doing something with other friends from other shells. Most endgame shells would kick you on the spot if you were doing sky gods outside the shell even if you never held pops.

[Bhujerba]

Hey guys! Jobs being useless is completely new and never happened before!

....

Except that you and the rest of FFXI community never read or remember the new direction of job balance, taken from [VanaFest 2010] FFXI:Job Adjustments Update by SE:

Overall Direction
Up until now, most job adjustments have been implemented with ease of party-forming in mind. From this point onwards, we plan to shift the focus towards ease of participation in endgame content. The role of each job will also come under review.

Currently, the role of debuffing enemies is the exclusive domain of only a few jobs, but we intend to examine ways to enable more professions to perform similar roles, empowering each with the capacity to handle a wider range of situations. [SIZE=5]Our goal is to achieve-without sacrificing the uniqueness of each job-greater ease of participation in endgame content and provide the opportunity for all participants to contribute equally[/SIZE].

The scope of our vision for job adjustments does not stop there, however. Maintaining battle balance remains one of our highest priorities. As such, we intend to conduct reviews on an ongoing basis and introduce new equipment and adjust weapon skills as necessary. It is anticipated that the level cap increase will impact the balance of certain elements more than others. We will keep a close watch on these areas and, if the situation demands, review and reconsider even the adjustments that have been announced. Our ultimate goal is to provide the most rewarding, balanced play environment possible to all adventurers.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/eve...010/index.html

It is nearly impossible to perfectly balance every job to have a use that always guarantees an invite/spot

Sometimes, I pity ffxi players for their ignorance of other MMOs and what they achieved, in WoW (yes WoW) when LK expansion was released, Blizzard Devs managed to balance their class system so much that all classes and their specs (equivalent to 30 jobs in ffxi) are completely 100% useful for their roles, it didn't matter what class you are, you can tank? then you can tank just as good as any tank of any class, and each class remained Unique.

why is it so hard to accept the equality in usefulness and utility when it comes to job's roles and let ppl enjoy their favorite playstyle? is it because the problem existed and it always worked that way? or is it because ffxi allow 1 character to switch job so you treat it as playing single ff game while somehow ignoring completely the bag space problem? (tho I can say the problem diminished slightly with the slip system) or is it because you are afraid Jobs will lose their uniqueness? (which by the example above can be avoidable, not to mention that Jobs and Classes will always be unique, many ppl confuse "roles" similarities with "jobs" uniqueness, when these Job's Roles are meant to be equally useful).
... say all the tanks are in ffxi equally good where it doesn't matter if you are a ninja or a Paladin, you can come whatever and be able to tank effectively any given fight, isn't this what ppl want?

In the end, this SE new vision, and I was very pleased when I saw this direction in 2010, and its very apparent in Abyssea except that they ruined it somehow by the weakness system/not developing other jobs correctly (lack of Cure V) etc.., still I'm glad that SE finally recognized the issue and working to achieve this goal.