Abyssea outside of Abyssea - Yay?

[Leonlionheart]

Yah, those are rare situations but i see your point.

THF Could also pop a Temp item though, or use Perfect dodge. If you're in that kind of situation more than once a fight you probably need a better WHM anyway :P

But again, i do see your point. You feel safer with DNC, I'd probably feel safer on THF :X

Yeah in the end it comes down to personal preference. If you know what you are going into before a fight you usually have no problem with the fight anyway.

[Neofire]

Too the people hoping things will go back to the old ff11 days you need to wake up from that dream because its not going to happen. Their is a reason why SE made it similar to Abyssea, hmm maybe because ALOT of people liked it how abyssea was done?

[Alukat]

482 with 25% true haste from gear = 6.03 seconds. Add Hasso = 5.22, Haste = 4.05, March x2 (without +2 hands or Royal Guard's Flute) = 2.29 seconds. Atma of the Apocalypse allows TA, that's a minimum of 4.58 seconds for 100 TP.

Retaliation lowers that, I've gotten 100% TP in less time than it takes for Ukko's animation to finish.

well that is pretty exceptional. triple attack from AA atma has only a 15% proc rate.
u need 2.29 seconds per swing.
ukon gives 13 tp per hit. sub sam 15 stp.
thats 14,95tp per hit.
14,95tp*3 (i'll give u now a 100% proc rate on AA)*2 (rounds) = 89,7tp. ok could work due to the fact that u get some tp back after ws.
now lets calc with your 2,29 seconds per swing for 14,95tp per swing. 85 (guess u get 15tp back after ws)/14,95tp = 5,68 swings ,6 because u cant get tp for a half swing, for 100%. now 6 swings* 2,29 seconds = 13,74 seconds for 100%tp.
a fact is that u don't have a 100% triple attack rate, and that why i highly doubt that u can ws every 3-8 seconds.

btw gimme a brd and i ws every 2-8 seconds >.>

Edit: in best case u need the 4,58 seconds between ws and in worst case u need 13,74 seconds.

[Leonlionheart]

well that is pretty exceptional. triple attack from AA atma has only a 15% proc rate.
u need 2.29 seconds per swing.
ukon gives 13 tp per hit. sub sam 15 stp.
thats 14,95tp per hit.
14,95tp*3 (i'll give u now a 100% proc rate on AA)*2 (rounds) = 89,7tp. ok could work due to the fact that u get some tp back after ws.
now lets calc with your 2,29 seconds per swing for 14,95tp per swing. 85 (guess u get 15tp back after ws)/14,95tp = 5,68 swings ,6 because u cant get tp for a half swing, for 100%. now 6 swings* 2,29 seconds = 13,74 seconds for 100%tp.
a fact is that u don't have a 100% triple attack rate, and that why i highly doubt that u can ws every 3-8 seconds.

btw gimme a brd and i ws every 2-8 seconds >.>

Edit: in best case u need the 4,58 seconds between ws and in worst case u need 13,74 seconds.

+2 war body is 8 stp, rajas ring is 5, brutal is 1. that's a 6hit. VV allows even more leeway.
I thought that was a given, Who DOESN'T have those pieces if they have a freaking Ukon? At least a 6hit should be the FIRST THING you do after you get it anyway.

Let's now say the BRD has the March +2 Horn (Like 6k at AH) and the AF3+2 hands (+1 march) I now swing at 1.71 seconds per. Ukko's Fury gives about 17 TP back depending on TA, DA. With 5 hits, that's 8.55 seconds. With 2 TA that's 3.42.

Retaliation is probably a 50% proc rate. Assuming a mob isn't slowed, they usually hit about every 3 seconds, and they DA often, sometimes even TA.

[Leonlionheart]

Oh, and with +49 STP that's a 5hit, so you have even more chances (Need 2 DA for 3.42 seconds per 100%)

[Bhujerba]

ALSO FYI, I'm rather positive before the "savior lich king" there were quite a few useless jobs/spec combos in WoW. In fact, there are still a lot of useless(Less-than-useful) spec-combo. also, you act like there aren't a few job/spec combos people prefer over other jobs, yet there are. Bet when you used that WoW comparison you didn't expect to be arguing with someone who knows the game huh? Even in WoW players (good ones) Still opt for the best jobs to get something done, just like we do here.

before LK yes there was lol specs in the game , they have yet to achieve a good balance, Ret used to be call LOLRET in TBC just like LOLPUP and I happen to like both styles >.>, but after LK specially after the introduction of DF, I was never, EVER been denied a spot in group, raid or bg due my class or spec.

I do admit its not to an extreme extent to the point a job is 100% Useless, Like PLD is now.

thats what i'm saying!! all classes whiners in WoW are crying about 5-10% difference in performance and we all know humans will never stop whining lol, but comparing to FFXI? where job performance varies GREATLY by design! to the point where it become nearly 100% useless if your job doesn't bring to the table just as much as the next one, sure everyone can DD, everyone can proc and every tank can tank, but if you cant proc, DD or tank as good as this "job" your job slot in pt/ally validation will drop to 0 (unless there is free slots yay! .......... )

But even a PLD has a small use, you just need an Ochain and an Almace for it.

so in order for a job to even function you just have to collect BiS gear! you know damn well this is a horrible design >.>.

Secondly, your first quote is hilarious, you act like that hasn't been their goal since day 1, they're just announcing that now as fluff text to give us some idea of their plans. their goal from day 1 has always been to maintain a balance between the jobs (what MMO wouldn't...?), so acting like they're suddenly now just begining to try is ignorant.

umm it wasn't actually...did you read the first paragraph?

Up until now, most job adjustments have been implemented with ease of party-forming in mind. From this point onwards, we plan to shift the focus towards ease of participation in endgame content. The role of each job will also come under review.

they only cared to keep the jobs functional enough without making them all appealing in end game, "ease of participation in endgame content" wasn't exactly about the the content itself but about the jobs themselves becoming easier to participate and do well in end game since the entire topic was talking about jobs balance., tho I could see why someone would take that line out of context, thinking what they done in abyssea..

if you think they cared about jobs back then why do you think it took them 8 years to make them useful and desirable? (which they were never been close), but in 1 year they made all the jobs in a very good position (despite the new flaws they created...)
(what do you think they are shifting from?)

Its harder to fix jobs in FFXI than WoW because they have two fundamentally astronomically different job systems. You may as well be comparing Apples to Race cars.

I didn't compare it to class I compare to spec, their roles, DD spec of any class are almost equal in DD department (except to pure classes, 5% difference by design), in FFXI DRK role is only DD same as WAR (pure jobs), why they shouldn't be equal as DD? (SE striving to do this, that's why they are buffing DRK next update)
I was comparing spec to spec in WoW, though I agree the Talent(spec) system technically impose a limit on Hybrid Classes, which in FFXI this limit is nearly non-existing (e.g. 1 min recast between DD and support/healing abilities) , so they have to be just extra careful buffing these jobs (which IMO hardly matter, remind of what happen in WoW when blizzard decided to close the gab between hybrids and pures , the cries reached the skies but after it was done... it wasn't so bad, sigh-.-) , otherwise the same concept apply to jobs roles, in almost any MMO with roles system (Tank/Healer/DD/Support/etc...).

I think this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic, I apologize plus english is not my main language I also apologize for my rudeness, I just hoped the community would understand and accept equality in Roles and why ppl are asking for it and realize (or know..) that SE "New vision" is actually to reach that goal, its already been decided.

[svengalis]

The biggest difference between old sky/sea/dynamis and Abyssea now is the fact that players, as a whole, have learned significantly more about how the game works. That in and of itself is the biggest reason that Sky/Sea/Dynamis became so much easier even at the 75 cap than they were in the past. Now that we know how Game Mechanics work, how NMs work, and generally have access to more gear/jobs per player, all content is going to be easier and cleared more quickly and efficiently.

All in all, there is significantly less to do in Sky than in even a single Visions Abyssea zone (aside from running). There are 8 Trigger NMs, 4 Shijin, and Kirin. Altogether 13 NMs, 3 overlapping zones, and a surface area about twice the size of La Theine Plateau. Sky was a mess of mandatory time sinks (sup pre-and-post-patch Ulli and Despot), bottlenecking (long repop non-instanced ???s, Aura Statues), and poor drop rates (hi Quake scroll Kirin). I would hardly call it engaging. I think I slept more in sky than anything else.

I don't know how anyone could find sky or dynamis(I hated dynamis, such a huge waste of time if you were not farming relic) more funner then Abyssea. Abyssea is way better to me.

[Karbuncle]

I didn't compare it to class I compare to spec, their roles, DD spec of any class are almost equal in DD department (except to pure classes, 5% difference by design), in FFXI DRK role is only DD same as WAR (pure jobs), why they shouldn't be equal as DD? (SE striving to do this, that's why they are buffing DRK next update)
I was comparing spec to spec in WoW, though I agree the Talent(spec) system technically impose a limit on Hybrid Classes, which in FFXI this limit is nearly non-existing (e.g. 1 min recast between DD and support/healing abilities) , so they have to be just extra careful buffing these jobs (which IMO hardly matter, remind of what happen in WoW when blizzard decided to close the gab between hybrids and pures , the cries reached the skies but after it was done... it wasn't so bad, sigh-.-) , otherwise the same concept apply to jobs roles, in almost any MMO with roles system (Tank/Healer/DD/Support/etc...).

I think this is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic, I apologize plus english is not my main language I also apologize for my rudeness, I just hoped the community would understand and accept equality in Roles and why ppl are asking for it and realize (or know..) that SE "New vision" is actually to reach that goal, its already been decided.

Don't apologize for off topic discussions! This is probably the most interesting thing they've read all day.

Also, on the part I've selected, thats the problem in the comparison. WoW its easy for every job to maintain some Balance, because each job has a variety of ways to play it through specs. Where as in FFXI, we get what we're given, and there is very little "Variety". So its harder to balance.

Thats what I'm sayin'!

And as for the Ochain/Almace part, I didn't say it was easy/right/fair or whatever :| i just said the job wasn't ENTIRELY useless. I still hate that PLD needs Empyreans to be useful, but at the same time, if i had both, It'd be fun

[Bhujerba]

Don't apologize for off topic discussions! This is probably the most interesting thing they've read all day.

Also, on the part I've selected, thats the problem in the comparison. WoW its easy for every job to maintain some Balance, because each job has a variety of ways to play it through specs. Where as in FFXI, we get what we're given, and there is very little "Variety". So its harder to balance.

Thats what I'm sayin'!

And as for the Ochain/Almace part, I didn't say it was easy/right/fair or whatever :| i just said the job wasn't ENTIRELY useless. I still hate that PLD needs Empyreans to be useful, but at the same time, if i had both, It'd be fun

I agree and understand you in the balance issue to a point, job utilities in this game are very limited and unique outside of magic spell-set, one might say its harder to balance because of that, but I believe balancing jobs is a lot more easier than you think, specially Pure jobs, besides remember, most of the imbalance in WoW came from trying to balance PvE Vs PvP, but in FFXI they don't have to worry about that, I believe Job balance can be achieved faster and easier, SE just started a year ago (Blizzard took took them 3 years..and that's BLIZZARD)plus we are in a transition yet we are in a very good position and most ppl are happy with their favorite jobs , it means SE did something right (contents like abyssea trivialized some jobs still an issue).

[Karbuncle]

I agree and understand you in the balance issue to a point, job utilities in this game are very limited and unique outside of magic spell-set, one might say its harder to balance because of that, but I believe balancing jobs is a lot more easier than you think, specially Pure jobs, besides remember, most of the imbalance in WoW came from trying to balance PvE Vs PvP, but in FFXI they don't have to worry about that, I believe Job balance can be achieved faster and easier, SE just started a year ago (Blizzard took took them 3 years..and that's BLIZZARD)plus we are in a transition yet we are in a very good position and most ppl are happy with their favorite jobs , it means SE did something right (contents like abyssea trivialized some jobs still an issue).

One of the biggest problems with PLD though, is its a job designed for an era of FFXI long passed. Its a blood tank, and blood tanks are just criminally ineffective.

So in order to fix PLD, the job itself in core needs to be rethought. PLD/NIN fixed a lot of PLD's problems by basically removing blood-tanking from the picture. Still, There needs a bit more to be done.

If we could spec our jobs in FFXI to certain things, I'm sure there'd be no obsolete jobs in FFXI too :X, There'd be best combos (durp), but i think no job would be truly obsolete.