I don't really get your reasoning here. Because the official servers do something a certain way, the unofficial servers are automatically presumed to do the same thing? Heck, the whole basis of starting most private servers is due to a certain demographic wanting the game to be different than what is offered on official servers. It's not exactly a stretch of the imagination for a no-boxing policy to be a part that. Project1999 is known for their strict policy on the subject, despite official EQ servers sporting box armies the likes of which I haven't seen elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Classic server, what's the argument against it now?
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05-20-2015, 03:19 PMSeillan
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05-20-2015, 03:49 PMAlhanelem
poster above you gave a reaosnable explanation.
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05-21-2015, 02:03 AMnekroturkeyYes, I believe that there are enough people to support a classic server. Look at all of the people willing to spend their own money to re-create the classic experience (do you know how much server infrastructure costs?) and the legions of people that join them. Look at the success of classic servers in other games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teraniku
There's no reason to believe that it wouldn't be successful, honestly. -
05-21-2015, 04:53 AMPlumbGameBasically this.Quote:
Originally Posted by nekroturkey
I wouldn't believe this would be a smart move for SE if the population sizes of servers was vastly larger than it is is, but given not only that most the servers pops are significantly smaller than what I feel a classic server could hit, SE announced the game basically being done after November except minor patches that basically consist of QoL changes. I find no better opportunity than now to hopefully keep the game we all hold and love running. Maybe it's success would even open more opportunities for the current servers to thrive.
Is there a chance this doesn't succeed? Without a doubt there is a chance, but again, basing what we know off of other games that have done similar things, those servers have ALWAYS been successful, well what determines success, I don't know, but I do know this, they have been more successful than their counterparts that aren't classic servers. -
05-21-2015, 05:27 AMAlhanelemWithout actual statistics, i'm inclined to believe you're strongly overstating (legions? I don't think so) the popularity of these illicit servers. You're using weasel words (e.g. vague words that can mean whatever you want them to) to make the situation look better than it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by nekroturkey
The number of people playing the current game far exceeds those playing on illegal servers, and I've seen no evidence to the contrary. And unless you still need a legitimate account with a paid subscription to get on to these servers, I'd wager people are more likely to doing it to avoid paying sub fees rather than because they can get a 'classic' experience.
for the 40th time, other games making classic servers is not a guarantee that it would be beneficial to this game. "Not a guarantee" does not mean "definitely won't" or "definitely will." Only that the chance is not 100% as you're asserting. From my perspective "It worked for them so itt'l work for us" is not a compelling argument. You can't predict the future with perfect accuracy. Your data supports a possibility, but it guarantees nothing.
Prior to FFXIV, there were no online games that successfully reinvented themseleves without going free to play / freemium. SE proved them wrong and did it anyway. There were at least as many examples of games needing f2p to save themselves (DDO, rift, tera) as you have examples of games making classic servers, but then a game came along that didn't need to do it. Therefore, to me three examples (the number in your original post) of classic and/or progression servers is not enough to prove the concept is assured to benefit FFXI.
(Also, since your first post i've not seen you mention any other sources of data. Three sources isn't even enough for the typical essay or paper I would have written in colllege or high school) -
05-21-2015, 05:52 AMdetlef
Has anybody actually played on a private server? I'm wondering what kind of populations there really are and if people can actually devote enough play time to allow for at least a semi-robust group experience. I'm picturing a server with a hundred people who play maybe 15 hours a week and are never online at the same time or wanting to do the same thing at the same time. Am I completely off base or is this accurate?
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05-21-2015, 06:14 AMAlhanelemYour perception is the same is mine- I find it hard to believe any of these have a population sufficent enough to play when you want and be able to find someone who wants to do what you want to do. In all probability these servers are most on individual machines and not server clusters in a data center and can not support that many connections.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
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05-21-2015, 06:39 AMmachiniThere are no playable ones. There are some that let you do things like log in, run around, equip items, but none of them actually function -- JAs don't work, monsters don't have AI, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
FFXI had nowhere near EverQuest's popularity at either games' primes. The EQ Emulator project has been going almost since the game came out, and one of the EQ Private Servers (the "classic" server) is now becoming an officially sanctioned thing.
I think a huge problem is that people don't understand what a "classic" server is. A "classic" server would be using POL and FFXI from the time period in question. It would be using loottables, spawn tables, mob AI, spell effects, WSes, etc, etc, etc, from the time in question. That data no longer exists.
Many companies that make MMOs have huge issues (as do most other game companies, oddly enough) with keeping backups and older versions archived somewhere. Since the idea of "classic" servers didn't exist back when EQ, or FFXI, came out, that data was not saved. The only way to get older versions of the EQ Client (not even talking about legitimately, talking about at all) is via boxed copies of the game. Somewhere I have a copy of EQ Trilogy, which is a copy of the game client with the base game and the first two expansion. So great! I have the classic version of the game, client and all, back when you had a tiny little window and we were still using the Quake engine. Awesome. Now what?
Nothing, that's what.
The server binaries, the databases of game information, probably even the source code for the servers of that time, don't exist anymore. And the amount of time it would take to recreate that when a good deal of the internal mechanics were not recorded, or the records of how they function were deleted, would be insane.
I don't know that half the people in this thread who are clamoring for a "classic" server have any idea what sort of work is involved in such a thing. Right now Squeenix is saying they're discontinuing development because the money isn't there to support it. Do you really think a classic server would bring in the dosh to support the amount of time that would go in to outright recreating the server and client software of the time? Do you have any idea how much time it would take to recreate databases of loot and mobs of the time? No, you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be asserting this is a doable thing.
And that's not what you want, anyway. One month of 75-cap where it takes a year to level a job, and hours to find a party, with no RUN or GEO, without half of the JAs and spells you've become accustomed to, where people will take rotating shifts holding land kings, where there is no fast travel, no mog sack, no porter moogle, no satchel, etc, etc, etc, after one month of that you'd unsubscribe while wailing that that's not what you wanted or asked for.
I played EQ starting the day it came out and quit with Luclin. I fully understand the "desire" for a classic server. Those were some of the most fun times I've had in a video game -- almost all entirely due to the community -- but I would not want to return to them. I can take off the rose tinted glasses and accept that 4 hour corpse runs, being unable to get a party as a hybrid class, some classes being absolutely worthless to the point no one wants to party with them or play them, no proper raid mechanics, etc, etc, were really unfun, and that the only thing that made them tolerable were the community. Someone helping you with a corpse run, whether it was a free teleport (and SoW, maybe), or helping you physically locate your corpse, or helping you by dragging it or clearing mobs: that made it tolerable. Sitting around and shooting the breeze for four hours at a single camp killing the same 3 monsters over and over again: that made it tolerable. That sense of newness in every zone you visited, every level you gained, spell you learned, piece of gear you wrested from the cold, dead hands of its previous mob owner: that was tolerable; doing it with a great community, with friends, is what made it fun.
You're not going to have that community. I am not going to ditch literal years of work to go back to 75 cap, especially if we don't have ToAU and Wings. I am not going to go back to 75 cap if I can't get 75 cap versions of my mythic back. I'm not going to go back for a lot of reasons, and other than the listed above, they all sum up as "I'm not going to throw away years of work and start over from scratch."
I really, really sympathize with you. I really, truly do. But sometimes what we want is not what we need, nor is what we get what we wanted. It is impossible, for practical reasons, and monetary reasons, for you to get your wish. If you truly want that, go learn C++ and lua and contribute to a project that will give you what you want. SE is not going to do it for you. -
05-21-2015, 06:54 AMnekroturkeyOkay... then don't? Are you under the assumption that we're asking for all of the servers to be rolled back? Because that's the impression you're giving. In fact, most of the anti-classic server people here are giving me that impression.Quote:
Originally Posted by machini
If you enjoy the way the game currently plays, then keep playing on the main servers. Let the people who want a classic server play on the classic server. Everybody's happy. It's really that simple, or would the simple existence of a classic server bother you?
Historically speaking though, and as I've mentioned before, the game had more people playing during this game's golden era than it does now. A classic server has a lot of potential. -
05-21-2015, 06:57 AMAlhanelemSo the "classic server" as mentioned in the original thread for EQ wasn't actually created by the game's developers?Quote:
FFXI had nowhere near EverQuest's popularity at either games' primes. The EQ Emulator project has been going almost since the game came out, and one of the EQ Private Servers (the "classic" server) is now becoming an officially sanctioned thing.
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It's really not that simple. If the classic server is succesful, it will hurt the community of the main game, e.g. it will get harder to group (Becuase it already is). The classic servers is more likely to simply take a portion of the current playerbase away than it is to attract new players or bring old ones back.Quote:
If you enjoy the way the game currently plays, then keep playing on the main servers. Let the people who want a classic server play on the classic server. Everybody's happy. It's really that simple, or would the simple existence of a classic server bother you?
If it fails, on the other hand, it will be seen as wasted resources. It would be very challenging to hit just the right spot where both can exist and both can be enjoyable. FFXI is smaller than the other games you've mentioned and it's already in a position where it can be challenging at times to form groups. Splitting the community would only make that even harder, no matter which side you're on. IMO FFXI is not big enough to support a variety of server types. Because of that I'd be sounding off against any such concepts- Not just classic servers, but other types like RP or PvP (even though I like PvP) or <insert server ruleset here>.
If FFXI was as big as WoW, I'd be a lot more reseptive to special servers with unique rulesets. But FFXI's population is really not able to support that. -
05-21-2015, 07:02 AMPrrsha
Saying that they have no backup of old data is a lie. How do you explain the private servers that have 300 population that only support content up to CoP? These servers have more players on them I am told then the current average paid server, so the desire is there. The only advertisement they have is word of mouth. While I have never tried a retro private server (or any private server as they are a form of piracy) so many of my old LS friends have.
Some private servers have full content some have retro and from the numbers... the retro servers have more players hands down. I browsed their forums to confirm the data and spoke to many of my friends who fiddle around on both kinds of servers.
Also 3 of my 100+ facebook friendlist still play FFXI paid. About 50 quit solid. 12 of them are in FFXIV. The rest? You guessed it... all but 6 of them play on a retro private server. The 6 in question play on a full content private server.
We all know FFXI lost the largest number of players once the level cap from CoP was removed and the lvl 75 cap. Sure you had a flood of new people resubbing to see what it is like to be level 99... but in the end, it no longer held their interest. Why? A post I made on ZAM sums it up:
"Most, if not all of Mithra Pride and Emerald Arcanum on Phoenix left once the level cap was raised and level caps were removed from CoP. Only 3 members still play FFXI on the retail server. The rest have either tried 14 and stayed there for a small time or have moved to a 11 private server.
The community is the core of a MMO and what makes it special. When a game tends to shift to more of a single player solo mind set, the community suffers a bit I have found. I am no stranger to MMOs and gave been GMs in 2 of them (Allegiance and Jumpgate). Jumpgate is a good example of this scenario. The game became more single player friendly, so players didn't need each other to accomplish many goals they had to before. While many rejoiced for a time, people started leaving the more they felt less needed. We as staff had to reverse that trend and went back to the core principles of the game. We brainstormed for months giving feedback to the developers and after a while came to a consensus on what needed to be done. After several patches that undid many of the changes that were done (and a massive nerf as well), yes, many players left, but lo and behold after 6 months we had an upturn of 300% subscription rate (mostly from vets) and the game was saved from bankruptcy. It gave the game another 2 strong years before the company pulled the plug however to make a sequel and work on another MMO game (which flopped).
Mithra Pride and Emerald Arcanum were always mid level linkshells that took in new players as soon as they hopped into vanadiel. The loyalty to the LS was strong and many of us still talk via facebook. The joy in running a LS like that was to be a mentor to others and see them grow into vets who where very close friends. 3 members of my shell met in real life and married (including myself). The general consensus among them is that FFXI is now just an empty shell... however they have not abandoned it in their hearts even though they have quit. They wish to relive the game how it was when such ties were made, so many choose a private server to do so. One of the married couples are a member of a retro private server as I speak.
This phenomenon repeats itself over and over again it seems with veterans I know. For some reason FFXI doesn't seem like home anymore, nor do they feel 14 is a home as well. However they seem drawn to the retro private servers like a moth to a flame. They even rather remake a new character.
BTW the game allegiance is still alive despite its small initial run by Microsoft (about 2 years if memory serves me and was developed in 2000-2001) It is now run by a dedicated community (private server) and has evolved with every patch and kept up with graphics changes throughout the years. http://www.freeallegiance.org/
Maybe SE could learn something from this, but it is probably too late... "
Also this:
"I really think FFXI is going through an identity crisis. It's no longer holding up to its core model and is trying to evolve into something it was never envisioned to be in the first place... and can you blame it? Just about 100% of the creative staff that worked on the original game is gone from the company now.
I think they would have been better off if they have stuck with their "Everquest" model of the game instead of proclaiming they are trying to re-design it along the "WoW" model. If they wanted a "WoW" model, they could have (and have) used FFXIV.
When you redesign a game and start changing its core to meet with the current trends, you lose your nitche playerbase. What you have left now, is a game that is half EQ and half WoW. The parts don't fit well together, leaving a confused mess of outdated content that is no longer relevant because the core has shifted so much that only the new content is relevant anymore.
What do new players see when entering FFXI? They see a game that looks broken by zooming them to level 99 because the older content just doesn't fit anymore. The removal of level caps in storyline areas and no need for low level synthed gear leads to a rewardless crafting system and empty auction houses (and a broken non-existent) game economy." -
05-21-2015, 07:16 AMAlhanelemThose servers don't even support that content. They are not really functional, please don't overstate how well they are. They're also purely English and that "300population" you're claiming is not going to be around the clock.Quote:
Saying that they have no backup of old data is a lie. How do you explain the private servers that have 300 population that only support content up to CoP?
It's not a lie. The only private servers i've heard of were created back when those expansions were new and were not updated. If they vanished off the face of the earth and someone else created a private server, they would only have the current version of the client to work with and they'd only have access to the current servers to reverse engineer them. You can easily limit what content is available, but you can't turn back the clock on the core client code. It's still going to be the newest version whether you reverse engineer Zilart or everything up to now.
Unless you've been to SE HQ and have access to their repository, you can't tell me with a straight face that you know they keep every old version of the game data. If you went and told me someone at SE has a USB drive of FFXI 1.0 from 13 years ago both client and server in their back pocket, I'd say you're most likely wrong. It would take a team of engineers and it would take time to literally turn back the clock to X time in the past. And why do I say this? The game software has, most likely, undergone at least thousands and probably tens of thousands of builds. The amount of storage necessary to keep all those builds for 13+ years is incredibly huge; and while storage is cheaper than ever, the game was started 13 years ago and it's extremely unlikely they planned for this. At most, they probably keep 2-3 years worth of builds, because they might need them to revert a code change that caused a bug or similar. -
05-21-2015, 07:25 AMnekroturkeyThis was the exact impression I got when I returned to the game a few months ago. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the convenience and a lot of the QoL changes that have been made, but the game feels terribly disjointed, like a lot of the newer aspects just don't belong. There's a lot of redundant/irrelevant/abandoned content in the game now, and you can tell the game wasn't originally meant to be played this way because it feels so awkward and unpolished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prrsha
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05-21-2015, 07:39 AMAlhanelemThe thing is, nobody wants to do the older content. It would be extremely difficult to get people to do that. People are motivated by reward, and old content doesn't offer them useful rewards. This is another thing that makes me question the viability of a classic server, because this problem would be back in full force and be off putting to new characters (not necessarily just new players). So what was SE supposed to do? They can either make old content easier to pass for new players, or they can lose those new players due to lack of people willing to help.Quote:
What do new players see when entering FFXI? They see a game that looks broken by zooming them to level 99 because the older content just doesn't fit anymore.
It's a problem even in a relatively young game like FFXIV, which could only really solve the problem by offering a "random duty" function, which automatically pairs people with others who need a particular thing done- But even with that feature, you have to wait a long time to find a group for early game dungeons and bosses, because few people are interested. -
05-21-2015, 07:52 AMPrrsha
Also your argument that a classic server will "drain" players from regular servers is flawed. The people who LEFT FFXI due to the changes would fill the classic servers mostly. Take all of those players from 3 retro servers and you have 300 + 100 + 100 = 500 subs. That's just from unadvertised private "secret" servers. Imagine if SE sent every vet that left an email announcing the addition of a classic server? You'd get tons of players imho.
As to your argument that there are no private servers that have CoP content? That is also false. Many have content up to ToAU. You can fight there, visit all zones etc. Crafting works fine, the economy is good and guess what? When you make a character you start with a global LS that everyone talks in. THAT is how they organize things like NM hunts and such. The only thing that seems to be broken atm according to the forums is fishing... but they are working on that. At the moment they have a work around that you can catch any fish but never skill up. -
05-21-2015, 07:55 AMPrrshaExplain how the private servers exist then in a retro state... even with no FoV or GoV books? Eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Also the most popular retro server has 100 members ONLINE. Those are not subs... subs are higher. I was low balling it at 300.
You seem to know nothing about them or have never spoken to a person who has been on one of late. I'd invite you to my facebook ring but you'd just troll.
I have never used a private server but once SE tosses FFXI down the gutter and shuts down theirs... I may just join one to have fun with my old friends. Call me old fashioned but I still abide by the ToS and never have even used a Windower back in the day lol, so joining one atm seems wrong. I wish SE gave me the option of such a server however. If they did, I'd probably stay around after they stopped content.
After the phone OS goes live, I plan to quit FFXI and not return until a classic or private servers are legal. Prrsha RIP 2004-2012. I must have given SE about $1,000 dollars over the years between my wife and I. -
05-21-2015, 08:19 AMdetlefUh, I have to point out that just because the population was higher back then doesn't mean the game was better.Quote:
Originally Posted by nekroturkey
At the time there were very few MMO options and this meant that FFXI's unforgiving gameplay was tolerated because there weren't many other MMO games that people could switch to. Also, I'd wager that FFXI represented the first MMO experience for I would guess the majority of its players. People put up with the hours of PT seeking, months of leveling, and hilariously punishing endgame because that's what MMOs were and that's all people knew. If you transplanted the 2004-2005 playerbase into 2015 and gave them the option of playing 2004-2005 FFXI or any other MMO, you'd be hard pressed to keep them playing FFXI.
Also, a lot of people who started back then were in high school or college and could afford to devote enough time to the game to make it worthwhile. Those same people are 10 years older now and have vastly different lifestyles. Sure in college you could play 80 hours a week and have a very fulfilling experience. You had 12 hours to play, seeking PT for 2 hours was nothing. Doing Dynamis for 3.5 hours was acceptable. Leveling a job to 75 at 4k XP per hour was manageable. Are you really the same person now? Is that something you still want from the game?
In my opinion, what people want is to be 20 years old playing 80 hours a week with other 20-year olds. -
05-21-2015, 08:32 AMIsalAs logical as your post is, that exact sentiment has been pointed out multiple times in this very thread, and I can assure you that nekroturkey is not going to let go of his questionable "there were more playing back then" correlation.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Frankly, if the "demand" is truly there, then the people demanding it should do something about it. Start a petition or something. The people disagreeing with the OP of this thread are in no way holding back the possiblity of SE making one. You gotta make it happen, and this thread isn't going to cut it. -
05-21-2015, 08:49 AMZarcheryPong consoles and NES games had a ton of people playing them in the 70s and 80s. That doesn't mean either would be popular today.Quote:
Originally Posted by nekroturkey
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05-21-2015, 09:33 AMdetlefI played Pong for the first time the other day. I had real, genuine fun with it for a few minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
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05-21-2015, 10:28 AMPlumbGameTerrible analogy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
So much misinformation in this thread it's mind boggling. -
05-21-2015, 10:57 AMAlhanelemSo you're saying that there are zero current players that would be interested in this? Like... the people posting in this thread right now? My argument is not flawed because there are indeed at least a few people who would leave for a classic server. I sure at least hope the OP is one of them since he's leading the push for it at the moment...Quote:
Also your argument that a classic server will "drain" players from regular servers is flawed.
SE is never going to make a classic server. They're not even able to continue updates for the main game, there's no way they will expend any resources on that. This discussion is entirely hypothetical. And private servers will never be "legal" because of copyright.
I'm not sure what you mean by "when the phone OS goes live"... SE isn't making a phone OS. They're contracting with Nexon to produce a mobile remake of the game, which, by the way, is probably the closest thing you will get to a classic server.
There's really nothing wrong with you leaving though. You make it sound like a threat, but SE most likely entirely expects this to happen. Heck, when they first made the game, they didn't think it would run for half as long as it did. I will probably leave at that time as well, but it will be on good terms and satisfied that I had a great run.
I've said that numerous times in this thread, but he just doesn't seem to understand that people leave the game for a lot of reasons. A perception that the quality of the game has decreased is just one of them.Quote:
Uh, I have to point out that just because the population was higher back then doesn't mean the game was better.
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05-21-2015, 11:05 AMPlumbGame
More likes for OP than anyone else in this thread. If the forums was a base line, there would be a majority view for it.
Alha brings up statistics and doesnt even know how they work, because if you were to use the people who play on the private servers in a statistical view, it would represent a majority population that would play on the classic server. Also, many things on the private servers work fine, I played on them 2 years ago roughly, when a lot was broken, and much more was working then than one of the people who recently posted said.
Every game that has ever done something similar has had more success with it than its normal servers.
Keep being in denial all you want, but these are facts.
Also, more people enjoyed the game in the 75 era than not, that is an absolute fact. None of you have any data to support anything you say like its some kind of normal for games to decline whether people enjoy them or not (personally, I don't stop playing games I supposedly enjoy, unless its stuff like I feel the game went downhill). The only data we do have is that the population in fact was larger during those eras, and don't act like you have never heard people say they miss the 75 days or wish it was still that era. I'm in a freaking kongregate chat room right now when people who bring it up all the time, and I have no idea who these people even are.
If we also use the above info, every game that releases said servers, have not only shown a success more than their current servers, but have hit population sizes vastly larger than any of those servers hit during those eras.
Let us not discredit the validity and possibility of the success of one of these servers because you guys are haywire on arguing about the lively hood of the current game that the developers have already implied is done after November.
Also note that just because more people enjoyed that era, doesn't mean it will automatically be successful, but for the love, people stop stating excuses for that era, because its a fact, and the numbers don't lie. Just like most the people in WoW enjoyed WotLK etc... There is certain eras in ALL MMORPGS that more people enjoyed, deal with it. -
05-21-2015, 11:22 AMdetlef
I just want to address a couple of points here.
Is 6 Likes really enough to allow us to draw any sort of conclusion?Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumbGame
I'm not sure how you can say more people enjoyed the 75 era than not, what does that mean? Or did you mean more players enjoyed that era than now?Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumbGame
Either way, I don't think you can state that as a fact. Sure, the game population was higher back then, I think we can agree on that. But the playerbase was very different back then as was the gaming environment. I suppose you can submit your guess that what worked then would work now. But everything is so vastly different now that it's really no more than a guess and certainly not absolute as you went on to state later.
I think such a server would require much more effort to construct than we think and would not be able to sustain any sort of player base or any kind of stable economy. I think the same problems that plagued the game in those days would persist and be exacerbated by a low population. Of course, that's just opinion but it's based on real experience and things that really happened to a lot of people. -
05-21-2015, 11:32 AMPlumbGameThe point of the first comment was that people claim that there is no demand for it, and they try using fallacys to determine that it would be a waste of time with no way to support their opinion. The demand is obviously there we can conclude by A. The thread existing in the first place and B. The fact that more people who view this forums, at least this thread, agree with the OP than not.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
The second point is a fact. How can you argue otherwise. If people enjoyed the game still, they would be playing here. How do we think WoW went from 6.1mil subs to 10mil+ at their expansion launch? It's not like the game has been forgotten and ffxi is just a spec of dust in the wind. There has been plenty of opportunity to bring back a considerable amount of audience since the decline of the game, but it hasn't worked. There is a many MANY different aspects of the game not appealing to many people who played in the 75 days.
I've glimpsed a lot of replies here, so I don't know if anyone stated is specifically, but I don't think anyone is saying that server wouldn't require effort. That's one reason earlier I pointed out that it's obviously if SE does so, that being said, if they do choose to do so, I feel absolutely positively that it would be more successful than the current servers. This is ignoring maybe the appeal to the JP side also. SE also being the king of remakes on their games, I hope this would follow. Maybe though their mobile version is suppose to be their "classic" remake. -
05-21-2015, 11:48 AMmachiniThat is correct. The EQ Emulator project is a private, open source project that emulates an EverQuest server. Sony Online tried to shut it down a couple of times, until they finally had to accept the fact that it is not illegal in the United States to reverse engineer a piece of software. You can only copyright source code, binaries from the code, and game assets (art, music). The EQ Emulator, being open source, plainly does not incorporate any proprietary source code, and it uses none of the game assets. All you need is a copy of a version of EverQuest that the server is compatible with. That's where the issue comes in -- the only way to obtain such a thing, last time i checked, was via a physical copy of the EverQuest Titanium boxed set. The server does not incorporate, use, or redistribute any actual anything from the client, and contains no actual official source code. It just took years for that to get established.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
And yes, the Project 1999 server is a fork of the main EQ Emulator branch, which does not share its source code alterations or its database that it uses to emulate a "classic" server. The reason, of course, is if they did, I'd set up my own and six box (they refuse to allow boxing on their server, and I have no interest in soloing as Druid or Necromancer). It was entirely unaffiliated with EverQuest, Sony Online Entertainment, or any other representative or agents responsible or in charge of EverQuest. They now have official recognition, though. -
05-21-2015, 11:50 AMAlhanelemThis is just another case of people drawing false conclusions / interpreting data incorrectly. 6 likes on a forum, therefore everyone must like it. Less people online now, therefore the game was higher quality back then. if 3 other studios can do a classic server (at least one of which was not actually made by the studio), then it will work for SE too. Too much conclusion drawing with not enough data.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
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05-21-2015, 11:51 AMmachiniYou need to stop. You obviously have no first-hand experience with the private servers you're talking about. They are incomplete, do not have proper loot or spawn tables, half the JAs do absolutely nothing, and a great deal of other stuff is wrong with them. They are not anything approaching playable. They also do not incorporate any of the live server source code.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prrsha
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05-21-2015, 11:56 AMHellkatMake that 7 likes.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
I just returned to the free trial of FFXI. I have been playing for around 6 years and quit shortly after all of the abyssea non-sense. I'm returning to see what changes were made to the game. I wanted to see if they fixed the mess they had done. I am saddened to see that this was not the case. After my trial is over I will mostly probably join a private server with level 75s then deal with the game in the mess it is in now. Most of my friends have that I have made have done the same. My better half says I should stay here because it is piracy to go to a private server.
Let me tell you, what SE did to FFXI is piracy in a monetary sense. All these years they took my money, only to trash the game now with silver spoon giveaways to any challenge the game had. I miss my old Vanadiel. Since SE gives me no other option to stay with a classic server, I will be leaving after the trial end. Most of my friends came during the trial too to play. They didn't like it now as well and said they would be leaving too. I have seen this thread and have been speaking with my LS mates. They all want to go to the private server until things get better as well. As strange as it might be to you, we all share the same mindset.
I loved FFXI but this game is not the same game it was to me now. It has changed too much and in the wrong ways. -
05-21-2015, 12:05 PMdetlefI tend to think that Likes are a bit biased in that people will only bother to click it if it’s something they feel very strongly about or it’s a very well-written post. Since there’s no Dislike button, you can’t really draw any conclusion other than 6 people agreed enough to click Like.Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumbGame
There are myriad reasons why people who played then are not playing now. Maybe more time is required to focus on work or studies. Maybe they started a relationship or a family. Maybe the cost of the game became an issue. Maybe they found a pastime they enjoyed even more than FFXI. Maybe they identified the game as an addition and quit. And maybe, as you have indicated, they quite because the game wasn’t proceeding in the direction they wanted. The game is very different now.Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumbGame
But then, so are the people playing the game. The player base was very much comprised of 18-25 year old players 10 years ago. Too many people are looking at just the game then and now and not looking at the players who played the game then and now. That’s why I say that if you brought back 2005-2008 FFXI to 2015, there is a good chance that it would just fall flat on its face.
Well let’s just say that some people think that the process would be very easy to do. I think we both understand that it wouldn’t be a trivial thing for SE to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumbGame
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05-21-2015, 12:07 PMdetlefHey, valid opinion. Sorry the game isn't what you wanted it to be. I hope you and your friends find what you are looking for and have a solid play experience wherever you end up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellkat
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05-21-2015, 12:09 PMPlumbGameQuote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
We have provided so much data. Thanks for providing yours. -
05-21-2015, 12:18 PMPlumbGameI can see what you are saying, but then use other games as an example. Not only have I ran into teenagers still play everquest, but what about all the 30+ 40+ year olds making up an at least 5k+ (this is being generous) population that just capped out their server on the TLP that launched?Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
You are trying to present "this is 2015, no one has time for this" type comment, but it is completely false, even more so with studies being shown all the time with the increasing popularity of gaming and stuff like LoL hitting 3/4 (iirc) the size of the superbowl in terms of people watching. People have all the time in the world to sit around and play, and hence if you need to look at the examples already given.
I won't say it isn't trivial, but it isn't as hard as you guys state, given the professionalism that you would assume a company like SE would have, they mostly would have to make older clients compatible with newer operating systems, and considering that they already have the system in place for current FFXI, they could use much of that in the appropriate areas. Obviously they don't just think it and it be done, but I think its more trivial than some of you think. A lot of you act like its requesting SE to send 3k people on a rocket to mars.
If you are talking about them rebuilding the game from the ground up, thats another story, but look how fast they churned out FFXIV 2.0, but apparently the capabilities aren't there for them to give a classic server? Come on, lets get real, and to assume they don't have old versions of the game? You can almost see every patch from the beginning on playonline (maybe the beginning, idk). I've never known people to just throw out stuff of importance, especially in this field.
This has been brought up several times in this thread and the multiple threads that all you guys arguing in have also responded. I know because I've given the same responses to all of you in almost every single one. You guys still haven't given any new data, and all that we have given is even more progression server success stories. Oh, and the population still dropping, and SE announcing they are done with major patches in Novembers, yet idea is still bad idea I guess. -
05-21-2015, 12:23 PMbungiefanNA
The statistics saying more people played during the time when level 75 was the cap don't take into account causation. You have to determine the causation. Also, the environment has changed, so the incentives for people to make the choices they did has changed. The average age of the playerbase has changed, as well as the number of competing games and the types of games. Even if you released the same version of the software now as they had running back then, the change in incentives and options available means it likely wouldn't return the same statistics. We can't accurately predict what would happen if they released legacy servers. We just know that it is a big financial and temporal resource drain to attempt it. They would also have to advertise that they have done this, and they seem to be bad at advertising their MMOs.
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05-21-2015, 12:29 PMPlumbGameAha, but you can accurately predict, based off the success of other games.Quote:
Originally Posted by bungiefanNA
I think there may be some mistake here though. I feel you guys think we are saying that a "legacy server" or whatever you want to call it would bring 100s of thousands of players back to the game. No, it probably wont, BUT, it will probably bring more players to the game than the highest populated server has, definitely more than the majority of servers. -
05-21-2015, 12:33 PMmachiniThat is your opinion. And it is SE's opinion that the amount of money they would make off of a classic server would not be enough to warrant doing it. The sheer amount of work involved is daunting to someone who actually understands what it would entail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellkat
First, you would need to determine what all has been changed from whatever specific point of time you choose as "classic". Then you need to revert all those changes back to that "classic" functionality. This will involve massive rewrites of huge sections of the server software. It will also require changes to the client, as you are removing functionality from the game that the client will expect, and the specific level of trust the client has in the client-server relationship for FFXI would mandate major client alterations.
Secondly, you need to do the same thing you did for the server software for all relevant databases. You need to rebuild mob spawn tables and loot tables for the game as they were at that specific point you chose. Which means that unless someone specifically documented all changes (and not a change log, but an actual "we tweaked variable x in calculation y by z%, and changed the number of placeholders for A mob to C from B") you're going to have to have someone scour change logs, and then player-created wikis, to try to create an approximation of those.
How much do you think it would cost to pay someone to do all that? How many man-hours do you think that would take? Because you need a person or people who are not only familiar with the specific client-server architecture that FFXI uses, but they also need to be familiar with the game mechanics themselves. And then they need to do massive changes to the client, the server, and the server's databases. How many thousands of hours do you think that would take? Just to go back, and check, one by one, each item in the game that existed at the time, check to see if its stats are correct based on what you think they were, and then remove anything that doesn't match?
The simple fact of the matter is that the amount of money SE would have to expend on creating your classic server would not approach the amount of money they would make from it. If the current number of subscribers is not enough to have them continue development for the current game, what makes you think you will get enough people to return to make a classic server break even, let alone be profitable?
I see too many people in this thread talking about things they have no understanding of, and assuming it must be easy, and cheap, because they have no inkling of the kind of effort or time it would take to do them, nor how much you would have to pay people to do the work. You are talking about thousands of man hours of reworking server source, database source, client source, client assets, POL backend, Squeenix Account Management to deal with that. How many subscribers do you think it would take to make that a break even proposition? Over what period of time? And then, not only do you have to pay to recreate that "classic" experience, you need people to maintain the servers, if for nothing else than to restart the machine when it crashes or the power goes out.
Now, not only have to incurred a huge expense in recreating that classic experience, but you run the risk of so fragmenting the existing playerbase that neither the live servers nor the classic server would be profitable. It's hard enough as it is on some servers to get a group together to do anything due to low population. If a classic server is such a demanded thing, as you and others seem to think it is, what do you think would happen if half of each existing server joined the classic server?
What would happen is that there would either need to be server mergers, or Live FFXI would have to shut down. There are not enough subscribers as it is to make squeenix want to continue FFXI development. What do you think would happen to FFXI if you not only incurred a huge cost in recreating a classic experience, but then drained so much of the player population away from the live game that the live game became even less profitable than it is now? So now you're out a huge amount of money from setting up the classic server, have fragmented your existing playerbase so much that live is not profitable, and what have you gained? You're going to need massive amounts of resubs for your classic server to offset the cost of having fragmented the existing playerbase, not even talking about making it profitable in the short term.
Because it needs to be profitable in the short term. They're not going to sink a hundred thousand USD or more into setting up a classic experience if it would take them 2 or 3 years to recoup that investment.
You and others really, really, really want a "classic" server. But you're considering this entirely from your feelings and desires, and not actually doing any thinking in regards to what effort is actually involved in doing it. It is not "simple" to do such a thing. It is not "easy" to do such a thing. It would not be "fast" to do such a thing. Game Developers generally do not hold on to 10 year old database information and source code for MMOs. I am under the impression that Square itself is notorious for dev teams destroying assets after a game is finalized so that other teams cannot use them.
Furthermore, all development done on this game requires PlayStation 2 Development Kits. There are not a lot of those left. I actually think Squeenix currently owns all the ones in existence that still function. Last time I checked, all development of the game client is done on the PS2 Dev Kits, and then is "ported" to PC. So now you are faced with the prospect of dwindling numbers of PS2 dev kits limiting possible development time. What is your solution to that? Recreate the tools on PC? That's a huge undertaking and extremely costly. So now you're out even more money on a classic server.
This is not going to happen. I'm sorry that hurts people's feelings, but that's the reality of the situation from someone with experience programming multiplayer online games. -
05-21-2015, 12:41 PMmachini
You see that? That is what goes through the minds of developers' heads, and the heads of accounting, and any other department that would be involved in approving the decision. Upon sober reflection of the type above, Squeenix has decided that it is not worth it to make a classic server. They've decided it isn't even worth it to continue work on current FFXI.
Please let this thread die with some dignity. -
05-21-2015, 12:53 PMnekroturkeyYou know who else has experience programming online games?Quote:
Originally Posted by machini
http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png -
05-21-2015, 12:55 PMPlumbGameStop with the logic, this nobody developer just stated the truth. The success that is currently right this minute as we speak happening with EQs TLP is fake, or the examples given in the OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by nekroturkey
All this person did was come into a thread, give their opinion that is completely opposite of the facts, stamp it with I'm a developer, then said to let this thread die. -
05-21-2015, 12:57 PMmachiniDo you care to actually refute any of the points I make, or are you merely calling me out on my credentials? Because as far as I'm seeing this, you're all wrong, you cannot actually dispute anything I say, so you're latching on that one assertion and completely ignoring the merit of all the other arguments because you can't actually come up with with anything to counter them because I am right and you are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by PlumbGame
I understand you really, really want a classic server, but you need to accept reality.