I wonder why he hasn't been banned for trolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
Please remove COP requirements on reforged relic and AF
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03-02-2014, 11:19 PMSfchakan
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03-02-2014, 11:21 PMCrevox"I disagree with that guy. He must be trolling. He should be banned."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sfchakan
If you don't want to contribute to the discussion and would rather just personally harass me, please don't post. It's just not a good idea. You continue to ignore all logic and any reasons anyone states; you clearly have no interest in discussion, so please, just don't post.Quote:
I just noticed that Crevox is the same guy who's been around for like 3 months and started that big "I quit" thread at the beginning of February. Why is it that the biggest malcontents who dislike the game project this onto everybody? I've been seeing this since 2005. It's like "I don't like this game, there's no way anyone could, it's clearly dying unless they custom tailor it the way I like". Same thing, year after year, since 2005.
You didn't read any of the discussion.Quote:
With all of the time he's spent on here whining and replying, he'd be done with 3 Paths easily and be in the home stretch.
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03-03-2014, 01:33 AMLithera
The point is all of the expansions are mostly fucking fetch quests with game day waits or JP midnights. The reforge gear is tied to other things dealing with the same npc. Let's take a look of the last batch of SoA most of it was oh please run back to Levil after waiting a game day for yet another CS. At the moment there has been a total of two fights. Sure you can cut down on the actual go here part because of the waypoints but it is still RUN the hell here and the come back again that you have been arguing about.
People who have been playing this game for years have been asking if not begging SE to do something with old content so that it is relevant to current content. Why? Because we loved said old content and don't want it to sit there and wither away on the side. Could they have done the reforging differently? Maybe but they chose this route so either suck it up and live with it or wait til they choose to reforge emperyean gear and do that. Most who play the game will probably agree that sometimes when SE chooses to do something a certain way is probably the dumbest, but we grin and bear it mostly -
03-03-2014, 03:35 AMDemonjustinSparks gear is cheaper than RF gear, yes, but they can both be obtained through Sparks, that is why I call it entry level, anyone just hitting 99 can likely get their pages provided they leveled slowly rather than leaching their way to 99, and even if they did they might be able to buy some of it still. In either case, RF is hardly more difficult than Sparks sets to obtain, the only real difference lies in the need for the original pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
Can you solo Delve without even trying? No? Not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
It's not a matter of not wanting to do it, how that doesn't make sense to you I can't understand. Dynamis is content battle against monsters who are at least in XP range of your character farming items, there is a chance of actually dying if you get ganged up on and there is hardly any pointless running from point A to B whereas CoP is literally nothing but pointless running 90% of the time with around 10 battles throughout the entire expansion really. The only time CoP provides any amount of danger or challenge is when doing the missions in Ve'Lugannon & Ru'Avitau, even then it's annoying since everything is true sound and you have the stupid door mechanic. Comparing Dyna and this isn't really a good idea since they aren't really the same. Gil can be aquired many ways, the most profitable ways are by doing current/difficult content, XP is most often done by fighting things that are your level, which often provide some amount of challenge, sparks are obtained while doing just about anything in the game. Again these are bad comparisons, none of them require a massive amount of useless running with hardly any substance in between. -
03-03-2014, 03:47 AMDemonjustinIn all honesty bringing up SoA's story at this point seems pointless, they haven't made it a requirement to progress in that story at all really which makes it exactly the opposite of what is being discussed here. Yes, SE makes crappy stories when it comes to this game and incorporating it into gameplay, not to say the story itself is bad, but rather that telling it through gameplay is very poorly done because it has resulted in nothing more over the years than simply going to from point A to B for some ???s, then to C for a CS, and possibly D for a battle, then back to A which starts the next mission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Since when did any of this stop us from asking for changes? SE has done tons of stupid crap over the years but we almost always ask for changes to it at some point, I mean right now we have monsters removing our gear after they told us this wouldn't be an issue anymore, people are complaining as they should about that, even if nothing is done, people at least voice the complaints. As for Empyrean gear, what makes you think that will be any different than the other 2? I have no doubt the NPC will be involved in upgrading Empyrean gear just like it has for the other 2 sets thus far and it will demand the same requirements when it comes to quests or missions completed.Quote:
People who have been playing this game for years have been asking if not begging SE to do something with old content so that it is relevant to current content. Why? Because we loved said old content and don't want it to sit there and wither away on the side. Could they have done the reforging differently? Maybe but they chose this route so either suck it up and live with it or wait til they choose to reforge emperyean gear and do that. Most who play the game will probably agree that sometimes when SE chooses to do something a certain way is probably the dumbest, but we grin and bear it mostly
The day that 'suck it up and deal with it' is the answer to our problems, this forum becomes 100% meaningless and laughable, though one could argue it has been that way since its inception due to the lack of feedback actually listened to over the years in many cases. In all honesty if we can fall back on nothing more than that response when it comes to changes being asked for then it's time to give up any hope on using this site for any form of feedback because we should all just suck it up and deal with whatever we are given it seems. -
03-03-2014, 04:15 AMdetlef
I've read every discussion and have a good understanding of the OP's complaint. But it got me to wondering, who gets to decide which parts of the game are skippable?
Let's say I hate exploring (this is true, Yorcia killed my adventuring spirit). I want 10 Home Points in every zone because running around is mindless and boring. Also, they should be available from the start without having to activate them in the field first. I don't want to spend my time running around, it's just taking away time from the good stuff. Is this a reasonable request, or is it too huge a departure from what FFXI is? -
03-03-2014, 04:23 AMLithera
Let's see RoZ has 18 missions 7 which are fights. CoP has 35 missions which 22 has some kind of fight gee doesn't sound like it's mostly fetch quests or CS. There is a lot of of running around but that is where out post warps the tavy ring and VW warps come into play.
ToA has 48 missions with only 9 missions where you have to fight something. I even included the two missions where you had to kill something to get an item you needed to further progress. That is a whole lot of running from A to B, maybe we should be glad they didn't choose ToA which doesn't even have npc connections to older ways of upgrading gear that is being complained about.
WotG has 54 missions with only 12 fights again away more running around like a chicken with it's head cut off than CoP. I didn't include the nation sections in WotG as some have more fights in them than the others do.
So is just the lack of speed getting from point A to B the main problem? If so then it goes to the laziness argument and not wanting to have to omg run somewhere. I know/knew a person who when asked to help break a weapon for a WS trial wouldn't go to the boyahda tree because omg it was too far to run to from the out post. This when the person asking didn't have enough time to go somewhere that it could be done faster at.
Yes with relic you can skip the +1ing of it to reforge it but SE chose to tie it along with the AF to the one NPC that you had to use for the original upgrades. Which obviously is tied to having to do CoP though not sure how many knew that about the relic part of it. Could SE have chosen a different way? Yes, but they didn't and most who are part of the stop whining and just do it already crowd see this complaining as a slap in the face to SE who seriously didn't even have to allow us to reforge anything in the first place. They could instead of just came out with more new gear and continue down that path. -
03-03-2014, 04:36 AMLitheraBecause his main complaint is CoP is 90% running around with little amount of fights. Which my other post clearly debunks that. I bring up SoA because he's all I want to do current crap. If he is THIS bent out of shape about having to do something to get something because holy crap it's all running around doing fetch quests then he obviously is not going to enjoy the current story. Again the original ways to upgrade these were tied to said npc so until we see anything more about empyrean gear I doubt SE is going to make us use the same npc. They'll more likely make us have to have cleared all of abyssea and I mean everything. All quests, zone wins, caturea, all dom ops, and to have beaten Shinryu once. Then bash our skulls in doing veil moogle stuffs or something dealing with Joachim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
EDIT: we don't have problems with people asking to make something better. We have problems with who and the reason(s) why. If you choose to skip something and rush to the end only to complain that you now have to go back and do the thing you skipped in order to get an optional item then yes many are going to say it is your own fault and deal with it. Same goes for those who had time to do the same thing they skipped because they don't like to do the story even when it was still current and not something that you could do while blindfolded. There probably is some kind of programming or design flaw that is making SE go the route they went with for both. This game is like a tv show where you can't just jump into the middle of it because it will not make any sense to you, but it will to anyone else who has watched it from day one. Like Farscape, or Lost, or some of the later sections of Stargate series.
Think of it this way would you want someone who's job it is to cook you some blowfish if didn't study on how to prep it correctly? Probably not as you'll probably die. Yet the person could be the best chef in all the world. They have the tools and experience and probably filet hundreds if not thousands of fish and might just go and do it. I still would not recommend eating it. I know someone is going to make the but this is totally different than what's being asked to be changed in the game but us it really? Someone wants to do/get something after skipping the required material and then feels it's okay to complain about it and asks for the requirements scraped just because they want to still be allowed to get their item/do their thing while still not having done it or it's boring, or takes to long. Compared to some other things in game it's actually quicker to finish than they are trying to make it out to be. -
03-03-2014, 05:20 AMGannon
Why not ask for all jobs to be level 99 and capped skills? Clearly leveling up and skilling up have nothing to do with current content, eh?
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03-03-2014, 07:02 AMDemonjustinPersonally I would say it's a fine request. We already have this but to a lesser extent because we have 4~6 Waypoints in each outdoor zone in Adoulin as is, as well as a HP in many of them, adding more can't hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
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03-03-2014, 07:19 AMKari
Play another game. This one isn't for you.
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03-03-2014, 12:09 PMZarcheryDidn't they already do this, with new Skirmishes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Artifact and Relic reforges are not the only gear choice. If the CoP requirement is that awful, go for something else. -
03-03-2014, 12:16 PMZiyyigo-TipyigoPost in another thread. This one isn't for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kari
(Constructive, ain't it?) -
03-03-2014, 09:08 PMLitheraLol I meant only new non reforged gear if they hadn't allowed reforging to happen in the 1st place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
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03-03-2014, 11:17 PMAppropriateName5786Um.....clearly the person who pays is the one who decides. SE offers a product, and we, as customers, are their collective boss. You and a lot of others on this forum have it backwards. When someone chooses to skip ancient content, they should not be punished for it. Only when they choose to skip current, relevant content should they be "punished," i.e. I choose not to do Salvage II and Legion because I hate their design, thus I do not get rewards from Salvage II and Legion. But if a new player joins now they cannot choose because they are locked out until they go through all the expansions. My play time is not extremely limited like some others, but the last thing I'd do if I only had 3 hours/week to play is do missions. If I went to another MMO today, I would want to level up asap and play with others.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Since when has running around a very static world to do nothing been considered content? This is not an FPS where every map/zone is different and you can explore for 40-60 hours and then move on to the next game and never look back. The HPs were added to zones that we've all been to 100 times because it was simply a smart thing to do and has nothing to do with exploration. I don't think anyone hated the addition of Domenic in Lower Jeuno because he made bcnms so much less time-consuming, which is what you're implying.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
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03-03-2014, 11:19 PMAppropriateName5786Abyssea and RoE skill tomes, meet Gannon. Gannon, Abyssea and RoE skill tomes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
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03-03-2014, 11:46 PMGannonThose are not all part of current content...Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786
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03-03-2014, 11:56 PMKarbuncleI don't really agree with this. Making each and every piece of content irrelevant the second new content comes out is a design flaw most current MMOs adopt and is the driving reason most of them suck. While i will concede there should be a time limit on the difficulty of said content, right now, CoP can be beaten in under a day, literally as i said above about 24 hours worth of content, and there's still a reasonable and relevant reward at the end.Quote:
Only when they choose to skip current, relevant content should they be "punished," i.e. I choose not to do Salvage II and Legion because I hate their design, thus I do not get rewards from Salvage II and Legion.
At this point in the argument, I must point out, Finishing CoP unlocks the ability to upgrade relics, and gives access to the still Best-in-Slot melee ring to date, making the content relevant. By your own logic this content being relevant means you should be punished for not wanting to complete it. You can't just turn off and on your own logic to better serve your argument.
CoP Is relevant. It unlocks the ability to obtain endgame gear, and gives an endgame accessories as a reward for completing it. Even gives access to Diabolos and Dreamland Dynamis, both relevant as well. It also introduces a lot of characters and makes sense of Abysseas storyling for anyone who cares about abysseas storyline lol. CoP is probably to date the most relevant and rewarding expansion pack introduced.
Theres not many things that are completely locked out right now due to expansion. Relic upgrades and Walk of Echoes are probably the biggest pain in the butt. Thankfully, almost every expansion/etc can be done in less than 24 hours thanks to the constant nerfing... hell I'd like to believe RoTZ could probably be beat in under 8 hours.Quote:
But if a new player joins now they cannot choose because they are locked out until they go through all the expansions. My play time is not extremely limited like some others, but the last thing I'd do if I only had 3 hours/week to play is do missions. If I went to another MMO today, I would want to level up asap and play with others.
Honestly, while I can safely say sometimes I hated making treks to the BCNM areas, the FFXI world is one of the few MMO worlds that feels complete to me. Maybe its because its my first MMO, and maybe its because i was forced more-or-less to endure the world from a running view instead of insta-warping myself from point to point like most MMOs offer these days... But what you're doing at this point is dismissing any and all things you don't find to be "content" based entirely on your own justifications and opinions on what should and should not have to be done in order to access anything.Quote:
Since when has running around a very static world to do nothing been considered content? This is not an FPS where every map/zone is different and you can explore for 40-60 hours and then move on to the next game and never look back. The HPs were added to zones that we've all been to 100 times because it was simply a smart thing to do and has nothing to do with exploration. I don't think anyone hated the addition of Domenic in Lower Jeuno because he made bcnms so much less time-consuming, which is what you're implying.
In one instance you claim relevant content should punish you for passing it up, while ignoring the fact CoP is relevant because of the Relic upgrades and Rajas Ring, regardless how old the content is. HPs were a nice addition and i'll agree, but its also dangerous as its making the game world, which until now has been more enjoyable and real, and turning it into another Modern-MMO copy where the game world is almost entirely skippable, making it unremarkable and easily detached from peoples perceptions of the game.
Its pretty silly the lot of you can't take an hour out of your play time to complete these still relevant missions simply because it involves travelling. Most locations of which are less than 5 minutes walk from any given Outpost of Home point.
Its not difficult nor time consuming, its probably one of the least time consuming and most rewarding quests you can do in the game right now, hell you can even activate some of the NM RoE trials and probably complete a few while you travel for the quests. There is no reasonable reason this should be removed from Relic upgrades. -
03-04-2014, 04:43 AMdetlefMy point is that two different people will probably play the game in vastly different ways. One person might find great enjoyment in something the other finds to be an irksome chore.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786
Also, let's define "locked out." Is a player really locked out Dynamis because you need Rank 6 in a nation? Is a player locked out of Ark Angels because you need to do Zilart missions? My answer would be no, but maybe your opinion is the opposite.
I understand that what people don't like is that AF and Relic armor is unrelated to CoP... But that's not really true since CoP is obviously how you get AF+1 and Relic +1 pieces. I happen to think that SE intended for people to go from NQ to +1 to +2 to 109 and so on. After all, they gave us free +1 upgrade items through Login campaign. But they also decided to be nice and throw people a bone to let them skip the +1 step. To me, that doesn't change the fact that the process is supposed to involve unlocking Limbus and upgrading to AF+1 or doing Dynamis-Dreamlands and upgrading Relic +1.
But with that said, I don't really care anymore. Let people do the upgrades, it sounds like if they can't they'll just quit. I disagree but not strongly enough to carry on arguing. It's just a different way of playing and judging other people's play style takes too much energy. -
03-04-2014, 05:51 AMOlorI don't understand these people. Seriously. There is no good reason why reforged AF should require CoP - none. It makese no sense and it is a horrible, soul-crushing road block. Thanks to those who understand what I am asking for rather than just trolling this thread endlessly with masochism and suggestions that those of us who want the game to be fun for newer players, or who prefer that modern content not be gated by 10 year old content should just quitQuote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Please be aware - even if they remove this gate, I will eventually finish CoP. It's just I don't want it to be shoved down my throat. I've never really been into the story in RPGs - for me it has always been about leveling up, finding gear, and making my character stronger.
I have picked away at CoP here and there, but especially right now when I have less than 3 hours to play a week, I want to make meaningful progress on my character - and running between CS is not progress to me.
Also to whomever said 'but X amount of missions have battles' almost every mission with a battle in CoP first requires 3-8 steps that are CSes not battles. -
03-04-2014, 06:21 AMMefuki
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult but I just don't see how this, of all things, is a "roadblock". Getting through the Necropolis by yourself is a roadblock. Acquiring your 3 Beastman king kills in Aht Urgan is a roadblock. Getting to floor 100 in old Neo-Nyzul was a roadblock.
CoP can be entirely soloed and only takes a couple of days or even A day to finish. I guess I'm just failing to see how this "roadblock" differs from having to have Rank 6 to do Dynamis then needing city clears to get into Dynamis-Beaucdine, needing Zilart missions to do Ark Angels, or needing to level Toad to 90 for that excellent 20% Haste instinct. It's all stuff that has a great benefit to complete and is fully within reach for any player to do.
But I guess some of us just have different ideas about what "roadblock" means. -
03-04-2014, 06:32 AMOlorIt's about having to do unrelated, 10 year old story content to use the items I can already get to upgrade armor I already have. That's the difference. If you had to finish ToAU to unlock monstrosity - that would be a roadblock. If you had to finish Wings of the Goddess to enter Adoulin - that would be a roadblock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mefuki
You don't even need rank 6 etc to get gear from dyna beaucidine - you can get it from the login campaigns.
As I said above, I'd even be happy to settle for just not needing to finish COP for the relic upgrades - it just doesn't make sense to let me upgrade them to +2 and then to say HA HA HA HA too bad go solo 5 days worth of COMPLETELY UNRELATED cut scenes to get access to the next level!
If there was a "reforging quest" I would do it, that would be reasonable - but COP has nothing to do with reforging. -
03-04-2014, 07:05 AMGannon
AF and Relic upgrading have been related to CoP for years. Now it actually matters and is exposing the lazy folk for who they really are.
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03-04-2014, 07:06 AMLithera
It has everything to do with reforging. How do you not see that they chose to tie it to the only npc that dealt with the original way to upgrade those parts? Also the rewards from log-in change so that is not an every day option also it requires you to holy crap get a lot of points to get more than one item. You would still have a higher chance of getting the piece if you go into dynamis and farm it. Meanwhile you get dynamis currency that you can sell for various reasons. Again until we know other wise this path is/was the only way they could put it into the game because how they code things. I doubt SE went oh let's see how can we screw over a minority of players with our new reforging system? Before they went and put it in.
Olor why do you even play ROLEPLAYING games in the first place if you don't like the story? That is probably the #1 thing that is thought of and a lot of time spent on in an RPG. There are better types of games where you can do all of the things you say you love to do. Like action/adventure games, or survival horror, fps ect.
Edit: it was me and those steps before the fight are normally a different mission. They normally have been good in not needing to do too much before the fight when it comes to the mission they are a part of. -
03-04-2014, 08:38 AMAppropriateName5786I seriously don't remember the last time I saw a Taru player talk in rhymes or lisp in party chat, or a Mithra player who adds thrrree "r"s to everrry worrrd with an "r." Which part of FFXI's story has brave adventurers AFKzaaring for hours on end until a decent shout shows up? Which hero of Altana killed the same mob for 6 hours straight to buy several KIs for the AA fights? ROLEPLAYING is 5% of this game's content, if even that. The rest is a gear treadmill, which has nothing to do with roleplaying. For instance, when I'm in Nyzul Isle doing stuff, the last thing I care about is that the ruins are protected by an undersea bubble and that the columns might be able to rotate etc. No, I care about finding the right enemy to kill, and finding a lamp to activate. The OP has already repeated numerous times that he/she will complete the story and likes it, but having the expansion block content that is relevant in March of 2014 is the issue which no one seems to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Also, the story is good, but if it's as good as everyone claims, then it deserves to be done of its own merit and the people arguing against the OP wouldn't have to keep repeating "But it's so good!" like a broken record. Do the best TV shows beg people to watch them? No, people tune in by the millions to watch something worth watching. In the same vein, people like the OP and other new players "tune in" to FFXI to fight the interesting battles that everyone else is fighting and collect ilevel gear, not to go through content that's almost a decade old, watching cutscenes that have been on youtube for years, and running around a world that is so empty you can easily run into a couple lottery spawn NMs per zone without even trying. -
03-04-2014, 09:27 AMRavenmoreThen why buy any game, all the CS will end up on youtube in a couple of weeks after release and you would save 60 to 70 bucks a pop. I know it you want to say it's not the same but really it is. Also would everyone stop kidding them selves into thinking there is some great influx of new players there isn't and hasn't been since xbox release. Even if you took away CoP requirement those few new players we do get would hit cap and cap out on gear with in a couple of months and off to the next MMO they want to kill time with.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786
Hey I even understand the limited play time thing and not wanting to do a expansion's missions but I also accept that if SoA(which has tropes I'm totally sick of) were to offer a amazing reward at the end or a new endgame activity I would either have to suck up my dislike of SoA missions and story or do without at this point most likely do with out. Some of reforge is good but it no where near game breaking and just like it was before most of it is macro pieces. But you know what the great thing about it is, you don't need to have CoP finished to do the content that the chapters come from so the biggest problem with gated content is removed, just stock pile a bunch of chapters while finishing CoP. -
03-04-2014, 09:44 AMCrevoxSo let's all just give up on making changes that would make the game better for new players! Clearly no one new plays this game anyways, and it's bound to fail soon due to zero new players ever playing it.Quote:
Also would everyone stop kidding them selves into thinking there is some great influx of new players there isn't and hasn't been since xbox release.
</ end obvious sarcasm> -
03-04-2014, 10:48 AMDemonjustinI completed CoP, I finished the expansion long ago, I still agree with removing the requirement, this makes me lazy because...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
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03-04-2014, 10:54 AMGannonThen that makes you arguing for the sake of arguing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
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03-04-2014, 12:03 PMCrevoxI did the expansion already too, if you read the thread. It means we care about the game going into the future for new players, and aren't just trying to skip a requirement like so many of you are trying so hard to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
Yes, there are also people in this thread that haven't done it yet and want this change, but that's because it's a good change to make. -
03-04-2014, 12:05 PMDemonjustinNo, it makes me arguing for the sake of others, rather than just myself. I have said multiple times and will continue to do so that this change would do nothing more than help new players, it would hurt current or older players in no way at all while making the game easier to access for newer players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannon
Now
You completed CoP already? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You didn't complete CoP yet? You must do this first to upgrade your gear.
You are new to the game and haven't done CoP? You must do this first to upgrade your gear, no exceptions.
Proposed change.
You completed CoP already? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You didn't complete CoP yet? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
You are new to the game and haven't done CoP? You are allowed to upgrade your gear.
Tell me, what is bad about this change? How is this arguing for the sake of arguing when it would benefit others even if I myself will gain nothing from it? -
03-04-2014, 12:07 PMDemonjustinIsn't it kinda funny how if the request is not selfish in at least some way that we are seemingly not allowed to make the request in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crevox
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03-04-2014, 09:45 PMZarcheryI think what's bad about the change is that the hurdle it asks to remove is an insignificant one. Problem with this is that if you remove one insignificant hurdle, there will still be other insignificant hurdles that people don't like. Every time that someone doesn't like a task, there will be a demand to remove it, along with the justification "it is a good idea because it will attract new players".Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
"I don't like collecting Rem's Tales to reforge my relic. Please remove this requirement. It will attract new players."
"I like the home point warp system but I don't like walking around to activate the home points. Please have them all pre-activated. It will attract new players."
"I want to be a PLD, but I don't want to do a quest to unlock it. Please have all jobs unlocked at the beginning. It will attract new players."
"I don't like levelling. Please start all jobs out at 99. It will attract new players."
Someone in another thread likened this meme to the tendency of lobbyists in real life to advocate all sorts of legislation on the idea that it will create jobs. I like this comparison because it is so apt.
Crevox, who is such a big advocate of this, burnt out and quit after two months, during which, reading his posts, he hated just about every minute of the game. Exactly how profitable is it for Square Enix to bend over backwards to attract players like that? Even if the CoP requirements were removed, they'd just find some other insignificant thing to claim was "blocking" them and demand that be removed. Doing Walk of Echoes requires you to get through 5 quests in Wings of the Goddess, out of the 67 in the entire storyline. It takes a few hours at best. I helped a guy do this last month and he complained at every step of the way, and ragequit a month later.
I guess what I'm saying is that the CoP requirements may seem pointless, but they're sort of like application fees you pay or initiation rites you go through to join some clubs. They show you're serious. If you can't deal with the easy stuff, you're never gonna make it through the hard parts. -
03-05-2014, 06:38 AMDemonjustinThis is why this conversation is pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
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03-05-2014, 10:32 AMCrevoxIt's not worth reading his posts. He just puts words in everyone's mouth and doesn't read anything anyone says. He wants to believe that all newbies just want to get rushed to end game, hate the game, and don't want to do anything. He wants to believe that so hard he will just keep posting it in every thread over and over and over. I've given up on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
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03-05-2014, 10:38 AMOlorI'd appreciate it if you stayed on topic. I am not asking for any of these things. Please keep your criticism to the matter at hand. If other players request the things you are asking for, you are welcome to criticize those requests in the appropriate thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarchery
I'd appreciate it if you responded to my specific request or refrained from posting in this thread, thanks. -
03-05-2014, 11:11 AMZiyyigo-Tipyigo
Some perspective:
When Treasures of Aht Urhgan was released, Square-Enix had to figure out what to do with the job-specific equipment for the three new jobs that came with the expansion. Rise of the Zilart's Dynamis and Chains of Promathia's Limbus addressed gear for the fifteen jobs released prior to Treasures of Aht Urhgan, but the idea was that new equipment for the new jobs should come from new content (e.g. relic-style equipment for the three new jobs would come from Einherjar).
Relic and artifact-upgrade equipment for these three jobs were only added to Dynamis and Limbus (respectively) in September of 2008, after the release of Wings of the Goddess(!). S-E addressed the long wait and the decision process to add new jobs to old content here.
Ultimately these jobs were added to old content because Status Quo is God, but I believe more specifically it was because Dynamis is a SACRED COW, then as now, while suddenly you had three (later five) jobs who had zero reason to put up with that nonsense (and build a relic weapon they can't equip?). And so these jobs had gear added to Dynamis (in a very delicate way that did not interfere with drops for the older 15 jobs, because SACRED COW), even though other prospective alternatives events like Salvage and Nyzul Isul Investigation never wanted for participation. Drops were added to Limbus as an afterthought, mostly to avoid the appearance of special treatment to Dynamis.
(Note, for example, the Imperial Standing equipment that can only be equipped by the then-new jobs.)
It is only now, five years later, that S-E decided that it was silly to keep forcing new jobs to go through old content.
My point: to those who insist that getting Limbus access to even simply be able to skip over AF+1 is "sacred tradition" that shan't be modified for any reason on pain of death, for at least five jobs it was never supposed to be that way. It was originally a tactless kludge aimed at avoiding the kinds of butthurt we see today over RME weapons, and I personally fail to see why newer players should continue to be punished for the sensibilities of older players. -
03-05-2014, 11:29 AMKarbuncle
At best the argument is just guess work and conjecture. You have no evidence of support that It was not suppose to be added to those areas or that the devs did it simply cause "Dynamis Ex Machina". I'll admit theres some chance they just did it because it'd be easier or to make sure no one would complain those jobs got relic easier/harder, but at the same time it still fits into lore for DNC and SCH, as they were there in the same Era the Hydra were sent to dynamis. It does have some reason behind it but stating it as solid or fact is just off.
Still, I'm not claiming it should stay because its a right of passage, I'm saying it should stay because its already stupidly easy to complete CoP, and theres more than just AF to benefit from it. I again say I would not be strictly opposed to the change, but nothing about beating CoP requires any hardcore level of time devotion, even at the minimilast of plays times it can be completed within a week or so, its the most reasonably accessible and easy storyline with the biggest payoff.
The rewards are laid out, and it shouldn't be cut from the process simply because one doesn't want to have to bother with it. I will say Ziygs that you probably come closes to a reasonable reason why it should be changed, although you state it in a profoundly exaggerated way, but I imagine you did so with purpose.
Anyway, I feel I am at odds with myself, I'm finding it difficult to determine why exactly i side against the idea. I think the only reason I write to oppose such an idea is because I dislike people who want to skip to the end jumping over all the obstacles others have done just because they want the reward without the work. Its not like all of us skipped CoP, and most of is did it back when it could take months.
If it still took months to complete, I'd be standing here saying "sh*t needs to change", but its doesn't, and I'm not, because the constant CoP nerfs make it a menial task at best and the rewards are still great.
so while CoP, old it may be, irrelevant it is not. Just because its not Delve doesn't mean its dead content, While most of the rewards come from the completion of the Story-line, like Rajas ring and the Tie-in RoTZ/CoP Fight earring, those items are still useful to a 99 player in delve gear, making them as relevant as any of the current content.
We'll see how this turns out, It wouldn't be the first time SE removed some restrictions, but those are rare events, for those hoping its removed, I'd still recommend completing CoP since its a slim chance they'll remove the restrictions, otherwise they'd not of placed them there in first place. -
03-05-2014, 11:36 AMDemonjustinJust want to say. While I do somewhat agree that it's unlikely they remove it, they really didn't specifically place the CoP restriction on these pieces of gear, they attached the old Limbus NPC to the new Reforged NPC which by chain, requires CoP to be completed to talk to the Reforged NPC. So while they did place the restriction, they didn't do it directly, and since that's the case I feel like it's more likely that they simply remove the restriction since as you said it wouldn't be the first time they removed restrictions on old content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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03-05-2014, 11:40 AMKarbuncle
I was considering mentioning that as a possibilty to be honest, But I decided it would be best to tackle later. They did add an entirely new NPC for the Relic/AF Reforging, one would think if they wanted too, they could of detached her from AF Upgrades, but they didn't, they added her to the AF upgrade NPC likely for a reason.
But this is simply me assuming if they wasted time adding an entirely new NPC for the sole purpose of Reforging AF/Relic, they could have detached her from CoP if they so wanted.