Please remove COP requirements on reforged relic and AF

[Karbuncle]

At best the argument is just guess work and conjecture. You have no evidence of support that It was not suppose to be added to those areas or that the devs did it simply cause "Dynamis Ex Machina". I'll admit theres some chance they just did it because it'd be easier or to make sure no one would complain those jobs got relic easier/harder, but at the same time it still fits into lore for DNC and SCH, as they were there in the same Era the Hydra were sent to dynamis. It does have some reason behind it but stating it as solid or fact is just off.

Still, I'm not claiming it should stay because its a right of passage, I'm saying it should stay because its already stupidly easy to complete CoP, and theres more than just AF to benefit from it. I again say I would not be strictly opposed to the change, but nothing about beating CoP requires any hardcore level of time devotion, even at the minimilast of plays times it can be completed within a week or so, its the most reasonably accessible and easy storyline with the biggest payoff.

The rewards are laid out, and it shouldn't be cut from the process simply because one doesn't want to have to bother with it. I will say Ziygs that you probably come closes to a reasonable reason why it should be changed, although you state it in a profoundly exaggerated way, but I imagine you did so with purpose.

Anyway, I feel I am at odds with myself, I'm finding it difficult to determine why exactly i side against the idea. I think the only reason I write to oppose such an idea is because I dislike people who want to skip to the end jumping over all the obstacles others have done just because they want the reward without the work. Its not like all of us skipped CoP, and most of is did it back when it could take months.

If it still took months to complete, I'd be standing here saying "sh*t needs to change", but its doesn't, and I'm not, because the constant CoP nerfs make it a menial task at best and the rewards are still great.

so while CoP, old it may be, irrelevant it is not. Just because its not Delve doesn't mean its dead content, While most of the rewards come from the completion of the Story-line, like Rajas ring and the Tie-in RoTZ/CoP Fight earring, those items are still useful to a 99 player in delve gear, making them as relevant as any of the current content.

We'll see how this turns out, It wouldn't be the first time SE removed some restrictions, but those are rare events, for those hoping its removed, I'd still recommend completing CoP since its a slim chance they'll remove the restrictions, otherwise they'd not of placed them there in first place.

[Demonjustin]

It wouldn't be the first time SE removed some restrictions, but those are rare events, for those hoping its removed, I'd still recommend completing CoP since its a slim chance they'll remove the restrictions, otherwise they'd not of placed them there in first place.

Just want to say. While I do somewhat agree that it's unlikely they remove it, they really didn't specifically place the CoP restriction on these pieces of gear, they attached the old Limbus NPC to the new Reforged NPC which by chain, requires CoP to be completed to talk to the Reforged NPC. So while they did place the restriction, they didn't do it directly, and since that's the case I feel like it's more likely that they simply remove the restriction since as you said it wouldn't be the first time they removed restrictions on old content.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I'll try not to hijack the thread, but...

I'd like to believe you have magical psychic powers but somethings tells me you don't, so your final divination there is naught but conjecture.

Perhaps, but I've never seen a Goblin Puppetmaster in Temenos, or a colibri in Apollyon.

but at the same time it still fits into lore for DNC and SCH, as they were there in the same Era the Hydra were sent to dynamis.

No Hydra Scholars (let alone beastman scholars) in Dynamis - Beaucedine, Dynamis - Tavnazia or in the Vana'diel Tribune. More damningly, there aren't even any Hydra Scholars in Wings of the Goddess cutscenes, after they'd already set the precedent of adding new JSE to old content and knew what was coming. And, of course, no relic weapons (made for the Hydra Corps) equipable by SCH.

Seriously, the only other times they've added new drops to old content were explicitly and exclusively in response to player behavior, such as when HNM drops were moved to BCNMs and Ex gear offered in their place.

Kludge is as kludge does. All available evidence points to it.

[Karbuncle]

I'll try not to hijack the thread, but...



Perhaps, but I've never seen a Goblin Puppetmaster in Temenos, or a colibri in Apollyon.



No Hydra Scholars (let alone beastman scholars) in Dynamis - Beaucedine, Dynamis - Tavnazia or in the Vana'diel Tribune. More damningly, there aren't even any Hydra Scholars in Wings of the Goddess cutscenes, after they'd already set the precedent of adding new JSE to old content and knew what was coming. And, of course, no relic weapons (made for the Hydra Corps) equipable by SCH.

Seriously, the only other times they've added new drops to old content were explicitly and exclusively in response to player behavior, such as when HNM drops were moved to BCNMs and Ex gear offered in their place.

Kludge is as kludge does. All available evidence points to it.

Most of the things you mentioned could be easily dismissed as "They had nothing to base them off of yet" when the game came out, and you can't rightly add a PUP Goblin to Temenos when PUP doesn't exist, and going back to add new jobs/mobs to an event is something they've never(or not in my memory) have done. Plus, there are always jobs that are limited to certain beastmen with Event fights being the only exception.

Trolls get PUP, Mamool got BLU, Lamia got COR, Quadavs have PLD, RNG, Yagudo have NIN, Summoner, Goblins have... IDK, Orcs have DRG... Theres always been job exclusive certain Beastmen, again, events being the only exception, or to a more accurate extent, Notorious Monsters.

I'm sure thats relevant somehow.

Admittedly SCH and DNC were added later in, but lore wise they existed in the WoTG-Era where Hydra existed. Had the jobs been conceptualized during the Dynamis era they would be Hydra Scholars and Hydra Dancers... Lore wise they fit, lack of those jobs existing at the time is the only reason they aren't in there, and likely the reason they were left out of later (S) missions to not cause confusion based on their lack of appearance in Dynamis. This example basically means the idea that there are no PUP Goblins in Temenos irrelevant because the job didn't exist at the time of the events inception, whereas if the jobs were around at that time, there likely would be.

There are a few SCH main mobs too, All-Seeing Onyx Eye is a SCH. Regardless, Lack of Hydra in dynamis I think I've explained above, the concept of the ideas had not existed, and this would not be the first time they've retconned something when adding a new job, It should be thought of no different now.

When it comes down to jobs and Enemies in events, what matters the most is Lore, the only thing that makes little to no sense is ToAU jobs in Dynamis, as COR, PUP, and BLU didn't really exist in the Three kingdoms during the crystal war, so theres no reason for their relic to come from there other than balance, especially since at one point I believe it was actually mentioned that the East purposefully avoided the conflict during the crystal war. So that at point is rather valid, even if just guess work.

With that said, There's another logical trail to follow. They likely didn't show SCH or DNC in the Hydra corps because had they been in them, players would question why there weren't any Hydra SCH or DNC in the Dynamis all this time. Either way, adding them or not, theres a retcon. By adding the Equipment to dynamis, they imply they existed there, but by not adding them to the Hydra Corps in the (S) Cutscenes, they imply they weren't a part of the expedition. In reality it contradicts itself, and there-in is the problem. The entirety of it is a contradiction, as is the problem with "Time travel", the only odd men out here are the ToAU Jobs and Dynamis equipment, which I've conceded is likely due to BALANCE as it has not basis in lore.

Regardless, as your first sentence says, this has nothing to due with the original argument.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Most of the things you mentioned could be easily dismissed as "They had nothing to base them off of yet" when the game came out,

The game launched with Yagudo SMNs and Orcish DRGs. Those jobs weren't accessible to players until Rise of the Zilart was released 11 months later.

Conversely, Limbus was released barely six months before the release of Treasures of Aht Urhgan (and one month after teaser shots, including the new jobs, were first shown to the public), and the lore surrounding it ties extremely heavily to the soon-to-be-released expansion. Nag'molada can't even bring himself to say "Temenos" ("Ou'Hpat Obelisk," anyone?) but "Aht Urhgan" and "Blue Mage" got name-dropped.

Plus, there are always jobs that are limited to certain beastmen with Event fights being the only exception.

Dynamis gave all four beastman tribes access to all then-current 15 jobs, giving us the likes of Orcish NINs and Yagudo DRGs (for which they don't even have the right weapons!).

and this would not be the first time they've retconned something when adding a new job

Example, please.

When it comes down to jobs and Enemies in events, what matters the most is Lore

The Hydra Corps was created specifically for the Battle of Xarcabard, so why are they in Dynamis - Tavnazia? Nevermind the fact that the Marquisette was destroyed before the Corps was created.

Lore went out the window where relic+1 is concerned even before new jobs were added. So why must relic+3 rely on the same mechanics?

[Karbuncle]

The game launched with Yagudo SMNs and Orcish DRGs. Those jobs weren't accessible to players until Rise of the Zilart was released 11 months later.

Which was because those jobs were already conceptualized, completed and ready for implementation(Or you're pulling my leg, but I don't remember these being in the Beta either). You'll have a hard time convincing me SCH and DNC were conceptualized during RoTZ Era. I mentioned "conceptualized" specifically because of this example, So I've already covered it and it changes nothing. As far as the Limbus and it being released 6 months before ToAU? With that all we can do is guess. It could be because they hadn't dropped COR or PUP yet, or that the jobs were still incomplete as teaser trailers hardly define finished products. While it does beg against the conceptualized idea and I admit that, It has other possible reasons.

Dynamis gave all four beastman tribes access to all then-current 15 jobs, giving us the likesof Orcish NINs and Yagudo DRGs (for which they don't even have the right weapons!).

Also mentioned.

Example, please.

SCH and DNC existing in Crystal Era, but not in Dynamis. If you wan't something before that, I can't think of any, but its only because its been 11 gd years and I don't feel like digging up every quest during the Pre-RoTZ or ToAU era, which I admit is my fault and I likely flubbed this example.

[quote]The Hydra Corps was created specifically for the Battle of Xarcabard, so why are they in Dynamis - Tavnazia? Nevermind the fact that the Marquisette was destroyed before the Corps was created.

Eh, True enough? Are you sure about that lore-wise? I swore they were simply a special task force between the three Kingdoms. Investigating/Combating Xarcabard was just their big thing.

Lore went out the window where relic+1 is concerned even before new jobs were added. So why must relic+3 rely on the same mechanics?

mmm, What? How did Lore go out the window with Relic+1. Serious question I must have missed it.

Regardless of all of this, You do have a point, SE has in a lot of cases tossed lore to the window, and SE has in a lot of cases worked on the size of lazy implementation over lore, so theres a lot of annoyances to work around and while I'm sure theres a good chance you are correct, theres a good chance you're wrong too, I just don't have the time or motivation to dig through 13 or some odd years of FFXI related quests and content to counter an off topic argument.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Which was because those jobs were already conceptualized, completed and ready for implementation

And I'm wildly speculating?

If you wan't something before that, I can't think of any

And yet you're confident enough to insist there were examples?

Are you sure about that lore-wise?

Go to Sauromugue Champaign [S] and ask Ramblix (Goblin Footprint) to reshow you the cutscene for "Another World." Discussing the destruction of Tavnazia and the introduction of the never-before-seen Hydra Corps (as a part of the coming Battle of Xarcabard) in the same cutscene.

mmm, What? How did Lore go out the window with Relic+1. Serious question I must have missed it

1. Relic +1 requires CoP Dynamis
2. CoP Dynamis features Hydra Corps
3. Lore states Hydra Corps should not be in CoP Dynamis, especially not Dynamis - Tavnazia
4. Ergo, lore got thrown out the window for relic +1

I just don't have the time or motivation to dig through 13 or some odd years of FFXI related quests and content to counter an off topic argument.

And yet you're insisting that new players trudge through said 11 years of content because somehow, somewhere, it's related?

[AppropriateName5786]

And yet you're insisting that new players trudge through said 11 years of content because somehow, somewhere, it's related?

The sensible and logical arguments for not blocking content for new players have been made so many times, it's pretty clear everyone who is against this change simply cannot see further than the tip of their nose. I ascribe it to a lack of intellect, and Zarchery is one of the worst culprits.

This group of players is very zealous, I'll give them that. However, their zeal for FFXI is so selfish and misdirected that SE itself would probably be horrified if they cared to look into the situation. It's like Sears or some other old giant chain with dedicated shoppers who is getting hugely outdone by Walmart/Target, and trying to keep itself afloat by finally making changes to rectify some old inefficiencies (e.g. doing monthly updates now). Little did Sears know, though, that their loyal but highly stubborn, stuck-up, and very self-entitled baby boomer customers flip off younger shoppers as a habit, and when some new shoppers suggested to Sears that they play some upbeat music to make shopping even more enjoyable, a group of baby boomers gathered with pitchforks and torches and yelled "If you don't like things the way they are, get out!"

[Karbuncle]

Conversely, Limbus was released barely six months before the release of Treasures of Aht Urhgan (and one month after teaser shots, including the new jobs, were first shown to the public), and the lore surrounding it ties extremely heavily to the soon-to-be-released expansion. Nag'molada can't even bring himself to say "Temenos" ("Ou'Hpat Obelisk," anyone?) but "Aht Urhgan" and "Blue Mage" got name-dropped.

Okay, I thought about this on the way to work and kicked myself for not bringing it up. Sorry if you've responded but heres the thing . Why would the Beastmen of the Mindartia and (Quon?) Continent have any knowledge of Near eastern jobs?

Lore wise, None of the beastmen on our continent should know a darn thing about BLU, PUP, or COR, because none of those jobs existed on these Continents during the time in question, therefor, regardless of those jobs being in the game, none of the beastmen in Dynamis or Temenos era (Temenos era i think dates back to the Kuluu!) would have any knowledge on how to be a PUP, COR, or BLU.

Theres no Mamool Ja teaching Quadavs how to BLU, no Trolls teaching them Orcs... and so forth. These jobs don't exist in this content simply because lore wise the Beastmen did not know of these jobs, as the Near Eastern culture is distinct and almost entirely cut off from our mainland, and actually actively avoided the Crystal War conflict.

Thus, their lack of appearance in those events fits into lore.

As far as job retcons. DRG itself I believe left some "huh" questions. If i recall, DRG even during the Crystal War were and in current times, both cited in the DRG quest and by Achtelle, were extinct or incredibly rare. Their existence in the Hydra corps itself is rather unusual. Exact quotes from Achtelle are

"Are you ... a dragoon!? That is a most welcome relief. I had come to ascertain for myself whether or not there are still those to carry on the ways of our kind."

.
So the existence of DRGs in Dynamis itself i believe is a mystery as very few were even known to exist back then, to the point Achtelle believes they are all but lost to time. So is this a past retcon or future?!

This isn't concrete though, just in game text, and I can't find the scripts of the DRG quest line but I think I do recall it revolving around the loss of the DRG trade as a job and refinding it or something.... Vampires IDK.

And yet you're insisting that new players trudge through said 11 years of content because somehow, somewhere, it's related?

Theres a fine difference between digging through 13 years of lore on a Wiki page and a screen with no exact info on where or what I'm going to find, and Completing a highly rewarding and well made Mission storyling in an MMO. Though, if you think FFXI is as boring as digging through wiki documents with no clear cut end in site I wonder why you still play. ! But srsly, you made the comparison first I'm just saying.

Mirage actually provided a logic step I was thinking about at work today. I'd accept a removal of Relic from the CoP grasps. Anyway, this argument is straying into "Getting offended/Taking it personally" and short quipped responses from you, instead of what it is, a simple debate of views, so I'll probably be getting off this ride soon as I don't want the thread locked or either of us suspended over something dumb >_>