Legion still sucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mahoro

And I understand those LS existed, but I would venture to say they were never the "vast" majority (which by the way you underlined it, you likely mean 75% or more). And the ones that have actually survived to 2012 have survived in great part because they are not like that, or if some are, they are in the vast minority now.

Re Abyssea: I completely agree. I actually preferred it at level 80 cap. In fact, my favorite was Visions, before the RR/Minikin dozefests began (speaking from a WHM lv. 90 perspective btw). I am not sure we can say with certainty whether Abyssea's "designed difficulty" was lv 80 cap, or whether they always intended to introduce the overpowered Atma and Abyssites. You are assuming content that was introduced in installments was also designed in installments. I do know it is possible not to design an event as "challenging" as Legion or as arbitrary as Neo-Nyzul, yet not as neutered as Abyssea became at lv. 90.

I am aware I could render any event as challenging as I want it by level syncing or going without buffs. However, that does not ultimately serve as an excuse for designing it as such. As for not doing Abyssea with atma, I already do. It's essentially called Voidwatch. Where the atmacite aren't nearly as good as the atma, yet I have most of the temps from Abyssea.

---

We've both been around a long time, I can remember EGLS's back in 04. During that time I've participated in many LS's doing many events throughout the RNG then later SAM craze. Most where completely and utter sh!t, only shell I felt was really solid (back then) was LoO and even that started to favor a select minority near the end. Most shells formed, got their leaders gear and later fell apart only to be reformed again. DKP systems were abused, LS banks were abused, and "job priority's" got abused, ultimately there is no fair setup that can't be abused, it's entirely in the LS leaders hands to run things fairly. The good solid shells survived the abyssea crash that destroyed most HNM shells, that's the only reason there appears to be good shells, because all the bad ones fell apart.

I do feel that each Abyssea expansion was designed for it's difficulty level upon release. They released them so close to each other that we ended up being level 90's doing level 80~85 content, and then later level 95's doing level 80~90 content. Three atma's and infinite-RR Apoc combined with RR / MM stupidity is what caused everything to appear "easy mode". And even now, try to take a team of 99's and fight some of those hero's NM's, their crazy hard without abusing broken atma / brews. Abyssea is only "easy mode" if people want it to be, basically it had built in adjustable difficulty / "challenge". Which goes to show people never wanted "challenge" they wanted exclusivity, they wanted content just hard enough for them to beat it, but too hard for players they deemed their "lessors" to beat it. Thus they could acquire shinys that others couldn't and show them off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

Abyssea is only "easy mode" if people want it to be, basically it had built in adjustable difficulty / "challenge". Which goes to show people never wanted "challenge" they wanted exclusivity, they wanted content just hard enough for them to beat it, but too hard for players they deemed their "lessors" to beat it. Thus they could acquire shinys that others couldn't and show them off.

---

You nailed it, square :) Enjoyed reading your observation.

They're crazy hard when you intentionally gimp yourself!

Dumbest argument EVER.

As for Abyssea breaking up LSes... All it did was show just how fake most of the "deep bonds and friendships" built through sky, sea, dynamis, HNM, etc. really were. There was no reason for any LS to break up over Abyssea. SE shouldn't have to force us to need each other for us to help one another. Unfortunately, LS leaders and rank-and-file members saw that they didn't need each other anymore so they split.

It's funny though. The hardcore, Abyssea-is-too-easy crowd couldn't get their Empyreans done fast enough. They didn't have time to waste on anyone outside their cliques. There was no reason that "extra" folks couldn't come along. There was no reason everyone in the old-school EGLS couldn't be decked out in +2s and Empyreans and whatever other gear they needed. SE gave us that potential, and we blew it. Why? Selfishness and narcissism.

Think of how much more smoothly VW, Neo-Nyzul, and Legion would go if LSes had had the sense to stick together through Abyssea and get everyone geared up. Sure the newer events would still need adjustments, but there wouldn't be as many undergeared and unprepared folks out there and you wouldn't be having to shout for every single fight.

Hindsight is 20/20 but we partially set ourselves up for the mess we're in now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrAZYVIC

This event is only for the more High elite player base.

For success in legion you need something only 5% of the player base have.

Not is enough have good gear
Not is enough play Well your job.
Not is enough have knowedge.

This 3 things are only a part of what is necesary. For success in legion you need 18 or 36 players EXCELING in their jobs.

Elite players show they are the kings "Playing". When i mean playing. Not in a forum shuting mouths, not in jueno standing with Shiny gear, not playing "Pretty". I repeat you need show you EXCEL your job.

DDS have years parsing their events and doing MASSIVE damage in every event they play. You need speed, timing and brain for excel using DD job. Not everyone can be a Elite DD.

Healers with bionic fast fingers and give a total calm when you know x person is your healer.

Dedicated Tanks give calm the entire ally.


Probably with the Legion nerf then this event will become more accesible for majority the player base.

---

I think this post is the result of someone actually forming a telepathic link with the Development Bros and transcribing their inhuman thought process. Not because the general idea, as far as I can tell, is "Legion isn't that bad". Because the phrasing makes little-to-no sense and revels in vagueness.

Although, I do agree that knowing how to use spreadsheet programs such as Excel can help fine-tune one's performance in Final Fantasy XI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

We've both been around a long time, I can remember EGLS's back in 04. During that time I've participated in many LS's doing many events throughout the RNG then later SAM craze. Most where completely and utter sh!t, only shell I felt was really solid (back then) was LoO and even that started to favor a select minority near the end. Most shells formed, got their leaders gear and later fell apart only to be reformed again. DKP systems were abused, LS banks were abused, and "job priority's" got abused, ultimately there is no fair setup that can't be abused, it's entirely in the LS leaders hands to run things fairly. The good solid shells survived the abyssea crash that destroyed most HNM shells, that's the only reason there appears to be good shells, because all the bad ones fell apart.

---

I am not denying that there were shells that did all you say. I am suggesting that it did not happen in the frequency with which you originally suggested (i.e., the vast majority). I have generally found there to be an antithesis to the "rose-colored glasses" phenomenon which I call, for lack of a better term, "shit-stained glasses". It happens when people form an opinion that masses various negative anecdotes they experienced or heard about in the past into a collective view that becomes "the way it was," which is then selectively reinforced such that any positive anecdotes are not properly registered or acknowledged because they don't fit that view. I just want to be careful about acknowledging the flipside view. You are correct in that we've both been around a long time, and I remember the EGLS's I've been in since '03-'04 as well. I had many experiences with solid shells, and for every LoO there was a Rusty Buckets or Anduril, etc. Obviously, it would be foolhardy of me to say systems and banks were never abused, but it doesn't sound right to me that they were the "vast majority" (which by the way you underlined is a loaded term I take to mean at least 65%).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saevel

I do feel that each Abyssea expansion was designed for it's difficulty level upon release. They released them so close to each other that we ended up being level 90's doing level 80~85 content, and then later level 95's doing level 80~90 content. Three atma's and infinite-RR Apoc combined with RR / MM stupidity is what caused everything to appear "easy mode". And even now, try to take a team of 99's and fight some of those hero's NM's, their crazy hard without abusing broken atma / brews. Abyssea is only "easy mode" if people want it to be, basically it had built in adjustable difficulty / "challenge". Which goes to show people never wanted "challenge" they wanted exclusivity, they wanted content just hard enough for them to beat it, but too hard for players they deemed their "lessors" to beat it. Thus they could acquire shinys that others couldn't and show them off.

---

It is the very fact that they were released so close together that I don't believe they were designed in installments. It feels "off" to me to conjecture that in the 3 month period between Visions and Scars, the dev team said "oh hey we should give them a 2nd and a 3rd atma!" I think SE had a decent idea of the "vision" of Abyssea. I also find it doubtful that they didn't forecast the effects of the level cap as they had put it on a set schedule when Abyssea was first announced. But in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I guess we can't really say for certain.

While technically accurate, it is a bit misleading to say that Abyssea is only "easy mode" if people want it to be. It is "easy mode" because the players take advantage of the design choices SE made, and that condition does not change for everyone else if a subset of players consent to willingly refuse RR/Minikin/infinite RR atma, cruor buffs, and 200k brews. Think what would happen if, instead of punching in the Konami code for Contra, the benefits of the Konami code were built into the infrastructure of the game itself. Critics and players alike would pan it for being too easy. Assuming that everyone equates challenge with exclusivity is a dangerous assumption to make, because it is perfectly consistent to crave accomplishments worthy of the name without wanting those very same accomplishments to be inaccessible to other people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camiie

There was no reason for any LS to break up over Abyssea.

---

Couldn't agree with this more. There were lots of techniques shell leaders could have used to keep things together. Ultimately, I agree with Saevel in that you can have an ironclad system, but it is up to the strength of the leaders to sustain it as some have in 2012.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camiie

As for Abyssea breaking up LSes... All it did was show just how fake most of the "deep bonds and friendships" built through sky, sea, dynamis, HNM, etc. really were. There was no reason for any LS to break up over Abyssea. SE shouldn't have to force us to need each other for us to help one another. Unfortunately, LS leaders and rank-and-file members saw that they didn't need each other anymore so they split.

It's funny though. The hardcore, Abyssea-is-too-easy crowd couldn't get their Empyreans done fast enough. They didn't have time to waste on anyone outside their cliques. There was no reason that "extra" folks couldn't come along. There was no reason everyone in the old-school EGLS couldn't be decked out in +2s and Empyreans and whatever other gear they needed. SE gave us that potential, and we blew it. Why? Selfishness and narcissism.

Think of how much more smoothly VW, Neo-Nyzul, and Legion would go if LSes had had the sense to stick together through Abyssea and get everyone geared up. Sure the newer events would still need adjustments, but there wouldn't be as many undergeared and unprepared folks out there and you wouldn't be having to shout for every single fight.

Hindsight is 20/20 but we partially set ourselves up for the mess we're in now.

---

I admire your idealism but as someone who was a member of nearly every endgame LS on my server and acted as a leader for some time, LS' were held together largely in this fashion:

Leadership - driven by goals, gear or personal interest.

Sackholders - the people in LS who share similar interests as leadership or have proven competency at handling LS members.

Members: Tier 1 - these individuals play their jobs well but aren't leadership material. It may be their elitist attitude, their tendency to parsewhore, the abrasive manner in which they deal with others or perhaps they're just a bit too nice or can't put their foot down like a sackholder should - ideally. These individuals are your A team, the people who memorize TP moves by heart, the mathletes, your groups best players and the individuals you want at events if you can.

Members: Tier 2 - Your 'average' players. These individuals are competent members of an LS and largely take a largely laissez faire approach to being in a group. Perhaps they just don't have the time to partake in being too involved with an event, they are playing while doing something else (like work) or perhaps XI is just a hobby and being the best comes second to having fun. When sackholders and T1s get upset about a wipe or screwups these individuals just shrug it off and move on to the next issue and for the most part you can count on these individuals doing what is expected of them up to a point.

Members: Tier 3 - Your substandard LS members. These individuals are largely either kept around because they fill a hole in the LS, were formerly average players or have personalities that make them conducive to keep around. These are people who clearly had no idea what they were doing or had to be told 50x to do X action but were at events because they make for interesting conversation, are morale boosters, seem like cool peeps on Vent or LS leadership just couldn't pull the trigger on them for personal reasons.

Cannon fodder/Scrubs - The worst of the worst. These are largely substandard individuals, excessive whiners, dramawhores or server rejects who did unsavory things to get ahead. These people were largely brought into shells because of gear (omg relics), excessive gilbuying (bankrollin' LS relics), bad LS recruiting (she's a Mithra!) or access to 3rd party tools that would benefit the LS in the long run. While these individuals could be skilled players usually they were too volatile as individuals to ever be considered LS members for long or planned to jump ship once they got that coveted piece they joined for.

XI was held together by a need to join large groups to get anything (worth doing) done and yes, when the option arose to break into smaller pieces many people took that option. Why? It's not simply because of selfishness and narcissism as you point but out but because LS' often became weighed down by incompetent individuals or just plain unlikable people you kept around just because you had to (you needed the numbers). I've been booted from LS' for not agreeing with leadership and have booted people who were only around to start trouble or work within their cliques and that was fine - for pre-2010 content.

Why keep such people around? Many LS simply downsized or lost huge blocks of members during the '09 void or during Abyssea as drops became simpler to obtain in smaller groups. Who said anything about 'deep bonds' anyway? If your LS lost leadership and became largely bloated with T3/scrub members you likely folded. If your LS kept leadership and had some good players around it might morph into a closed LS that helped only itself or chose to press on, replacing members. Or maybe your LS just became a social because leadership folded and no sackholder wanted to ascend to a leadership role.

Most LS' were creatures of necessity and friendships largely boiled down to either respect, smalltalk or mutual interest within a chatroom environment. Only in rare cases did such things as true friendships (beyond the bonds of FFXI), romantic interests or true hatred form from being in EGLS' and I've been privy to observing all 3 scenarios. To assert that these things were the norm is putting some spin on the reality of it.

Your point about smoothness also only applies to VW where yes, EGLS' can bang out more runs with a group that largely knows eachother but guess what? LS can't do much about the shitty rates, the inability to gift loot or DKP drops. You could do the same runs with a PUG and that undercut the need for an LS altogether.

Neo Nyzul? It's Embravas and 3rd party tools or enjoy Floor 80 at a low rate. Floor 100 pieces at a snail's pace. No LS is going to save you here unless you decide to use the aforementioned tools.

Legion? Perfect Defense, Embrava or again enjoy your losses. The loot is bad, the LS incentive thin and the fun factor low (throw as many WS into it!!!). It could be an ideal 2012 LS event but unless it gets a facelift it'll be up there with Yilbegan and Pankration forever.

That's a very insightful post Spart, and I can't say I disagree with your classifications and tiers LOL.

As for what keeps such people around nowadays, this is a sample EGLS Event List 2012:

(i) Voidwatch (with a healthy focus on Prov Watcher due to pooled loot, as well as other upper-tier VWNMs that people have 50/50 or lower rates of success with in PUGs, and "unpopular" lower tier VWNMs by request for which people have trouble marshalling PUGs);
(ii) Arch Dynamis Bosses (ADL and other zones by request like Dyna Jeuno);
(iii) Einherjar (only once a week, although when it gets revamped in a couple months for level 99 perhaps more);
(iv) Walk of Echoes (clearing a flux with strangers successfully in NA time is getting rarer and rarer);
(v) Legion (although the event is still horribly unbaranced); and
(vi) Mixed Potluck of older events by request (Pandy Warden, AV, Kirin, etc.).

Benefits:
a) More runs of each event;
b) more efficiency/organization/success;
c) access to things rarely shouted for that never get off the ground even when done so due to private popped nature;
d) events start 2-4 times faster than PUGs take to gather (especially for less popular content) and the sum of time one spends waiting or /shouting in PJ adds up quite a bit;
e) pooled loot on Prov Watcher sorted via DKP rules instead of freelot (scroll priority to those who use, WHM and BLM don't cry hot tearz of shame when DRG outlots them to sell);
f) more potential for multiple ADLs done with less potential for screwups per run versus static group of 7-8+ people who have to get ~40 Marrows and only kill 1-2 per run with 50/50 success rate pending access to more SMN/COR;
g) sucessful WoE runs which is a rarity with strangers in NA time these days for the admittedly only ~15% useful things it drops;
h) successful Legion runs when it is finally balanced in 2013 (lol) for the admittedly only ~20% useful things it drops;
i) convincing friends to kill your popped Dynamis Arch Boss can be nigh-impossible when it seems every Tom, Dick, and Shantotto views Dynamis as lost gil opportunity cost;
j) access to pool of players with accountability as you play with them all the time for statics for Nyzul/Limbus;
k) flipside argument asserted by many people these days is "start your own static" for most of the non-PUG stuff above but the ephemeral temperament of many players these days sometimes prevents accountability, responsibility, or ability to commit;
l) flipside argument is all of the above can technically be shouted for but can be a solitary pursuit and depending on event one's goals may never be realized.

Hmmm... If they could just find another reward to give people for beating stuff in "God Mode" besides gear, they would solve a lot of problems. Gimps would still be able to get good gear, and "Elites" would be able to show off their shiny new rank / glowy effect / whatever other B.S. SE can come up with as a reward. For example, they could have made gear attained without the use of atmas come in a different (more attractive) color. Or allowed people to pick the color. They could have done the same thing with empyrian weapons etc.

Lots of other online games use special ranks, or gear that is only becomes available after long term play to give players goals to reach and shiny stuff to show off without actually giving them an advantage over other players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Hmmm... If they could just find another reward to give people for beating stuff in "God Mode" besides gear, they would solve a lot of problems. Gimps would still be able to get good gear, and "Elites" would be able to show off their shiny new rank / glowy effect / whatever other B.S. SE can come up with as a reward. For example, they could have made gear attained without the use of atmas come in a different (more attractive) color. Or allowed people to pick the color. They could have done the same thing with empyrian weapons etc.

Lots of other online games use special ranks, or gear that is only becomes available after long term play to give players goals to reach and shiny stuff to show off without actually giving them an advantage over other players.

---

A point system in Legion with good rewards would have satisfied this.

To be more concise than my winding and schizophrenic post earlier, the main problem I see with Legion is that people receive Voidwatch-style rewards after putting in a Neo-Nyzul Isle level of effort.

Legion is a very challenging event yet has very few items that could qualify as "best-in-slot" for anything ever. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Wrathwing Nails because of the large amount of Store TP on them.

Some of the drops are ridiculously bad, to the point it can be questioned why the item exists at all, which is another parallel to Voidwatch rewards.

100% in agreement with your entire post Spank. Someone on another forum came up with this list which I tweaked a little:

Meteor
Arise
Khepri head abjuration
Iaso head abjuration
Misc. head/feet abjurations pending augments
Duplus Grip
Striga Crown
A'as Circlet
Fulad-Zereh
Ayao's Gages
Maniacus Sash
Chuparrosa Mantle
Asklepian Ring
Veneficium Ring
Esper Earring
Magavan Slops
Miodio Gloves
Mustela Brais
Ngen Seraweels
Wrathwing Nails
Wurrukatte Boots
Trophy for HQ crafted gear augments

Some of those are best-in-slot for certain jobs, others are sidegrades or one-action-macro pieces, some are realistically unattainable until 2013 when crafting is fixed. If these drops were in another event like WoE, people would go after 'em eventually, but I am completely in agreement when you say they put Voidwatch-style rewards in an event requiring a Neo-Nyzul level of challenge.

Bonds of Friendship in a functioning EGLS? C'mon. C'moooooooooon! "Friendship" was also a breeding ground for favoritism and factions, dangerous things for any LS. EGLSs ran on respect or the idea of Mutual benefit.

I think sparthos really nailed it with his breakdown.

Abyssea rewarded small groups more than large groups, and the ability to get gear so fast undermined the idea of waiting in line for a queue in larger shells.

WoE/VW removed entirely the ability for LSes to govern/gift their own loot, which is the main purpose of an EGLS.

You can hardly blame people for doing the smart thing at the time, especially after the next event to come down the pipe dug EGLS's coffin up and put extra nails in it.

The changes to Dynamis also encourage lowman/solo play, and Dynamis once once a big part of endgame. The change was like defecating on the grave. Yes it was better for people chasing after their own, but the system to do it with is godawful.

Now EGLSs would be the ones to benefit most from Legion, but they're dead and gone for the most part, and with good reason too.


Also, can we all agree that the unrealistic "challenge" is simply the retarded time limits?

Oh, I do. It's the unrealistic time limits that force one to resort to PD/Embrava zergs.

Re: your other comments. Abyssea rewarded smaller groups only after the introduction of RR/minikin/RR atma. And even then, it rewarded smaller groups per NM. Some shells broke up into mini-groups within each zone (or multiple zones), or concentrated on the top-tier bosses like Pantokrator/Apademak/caturae/Ironclads etc. that people couldn't realistically duo for a long time. By the time they could, the shell adapted and moved on to other events people couldn't lowman. While this was going on, people would work on side goals outside of event time, thereby shortening any "loot queue" inside of event time. Through techniques like these, EGLS's evolved and survived by supplementing members' goals, not impeding them. Regarding WoE/VW, another technique by which shells survived was to pool non-ra/ex equipment for bidding/buying amongst the members (rewarding the person who pooled it with DKP or gil of course) so that items stayed in-house and people capped out faster. I am reminded of the phrase "Adapt or Die" when discussing these issues.

I for some reason decided to remake your list with links. So people who are usually lazy like me can just clicky and discuss.

Duplus Grip
Striga Crown
A'as Circlet
Fulad-Zereh
Ayao's Gages
Maniacus Sash
Chuparrosa Mantle
Asklepian Ring
Veneficium Ring
Esper Earring
Magavan Slops
Miodio Gloves
Mustela Brais
Ngen Seraweels
Wrathwing Nails
Wurrukatte Boots

I honestly don't think I would use anything but the DA grip and the BP damage+ items even if I could buy them off the ah for 10k. Now if you could get them easily a lot of people without access to best in slot pieces would use them but this stuff is harder to get than the best in slot pieces.

I forgot all about Legion's sad and disturbing relationship with 110 Crafting until Mahoro mentioned it. The best thing anyone can say about Legion rewards is probably, "Because of how the Legion augment system is designed, the heavy presence of stuff currently unrealistic to craft in High-Quality means the rewards will be seen as better next year!"

Of course, anyone who said that would probably also say, "That homeless guy is really just free! Free from the weight of society! Free from bathing! Free from sobriety! Free from his leg that had to be amputated due to frost bite!"

Quote:

---

Also, can we all agree that the unrealistic "challenge" is simply the retarded time limits?

---

Increasing the time limit for Legion would be really nice. More time would increase the reward for both groups that do well enough at present and groups that do not. The latter could do well enough to get the titles, maybe, and the former could just mow down more monsters than they already do for more drops and more points per entry and entry fee.

This would also enable a much larger number of people from both of those groups to regularly purchase the point-obtained equipment sets and sell them on the auction house. Those equipment sets gain a lot more appeal when considered as things that are just bought and later sold when the bestest of thingies are obtained, or when considered as "stuff I spend useless points on and sell for money to buy better stuff".

What do I expect the Development Bros will do in lieu of just increasing the time limit? Something so weird that I can't even guess what it will be.

@Insaniak I only really gear BRD, WHM, and SMN, and I would use the BP+ damage pieces too. Also Iaso Mitra for WHM (abjurations aren't on your links), only when crafting is fixed and the HQs go for 5 mill in 2013 (which incidentally is when I expect Legion to be more popular lol). Arise I got from Prov Watcher but it would be interesting to see if the scrolls drop at a higher rate here.

Anyway, on a related note (since we are slowly getting back on topic), a group tried the final chamber:

Quote:

---

Final chamber is straight up retarded with 18; the Voidwrought model IG has the most random hate ever and just trashes people locked in every single time effectively ending that run for the most part. Most we got killed was 1 mob after the IG, which you basically have no choice but to fight first because it's gonna come for your alli regardless of who aggros him.
Uptala dropped Kagotsurube if anyone cares.

Oh also, apparently you can drop the Uptala to 1% and it won't die until it successfully casts Kaustra; at that point all damage just does 0 and you have to wait until it decides to fall over.

---

Really, SE? These mob mechanics in a 30 minute chamber? >< Increase that time limit! :)

I also forgot about the ABJs that might end up being amazing with augments but since -1s are 40-100mil or just nonexistent due to a severe lack of crafting mat supply that I can't imagine will ever be fixed and the augment items have yet to be obtained by anyone afaik there's not much point discussing them.

Quote:

---

Re: your other comments. Abyssea rewarded smaller groups only after the introduction of RR/minikin/RR atma.

---

VV, Stormbird, and various nuke atmas were available at the start and at the time were insane. Cruor Buffs themselves and a myriad of Temp items enabled anyone to take out most things at 80cap. With Scars came RR and MM, cementing "easymode" forever into abyssea.

Quote:

---

Some shells broke up into mini-groups within each zone (or multiple zones), or concentrated on the top-tier bosses like Pantokrator/Apademak/caturae/Ironclads etc. that people couldn't realistically duo for a long time. By the time they could, the shell adapted and moved on to other events people couldn't lowman.

---

Most things could actually be duoed at the level cap for their respective expansions. And nothing, but maybe Rani, couldn't be killed by a PT of less than 6.

And what praytell were these "other events" that couldn't be lowmanned?

Quote:

---

Through techniques like these, they evolved and survived by supplementing members' goals, not impeding them. Regarding WoE/VW, another technique by which shells survived was to pool non-ra/ex equipment for bidding/buying amongst the members (rewarding the person who pooled it with DKP or gil of course) so that items stayed in-house and people capped out faster. I am reminded of the phrase "Adapt or Die" when discussing these issues.

---

Personal goals are achieved faster and faster the less people you have to lug along with you. EGLSs were held together by the idea of personal advancement. Abyssea made it easier for people to lowman personal advancement, and thus having more than ~5-6 people with you will ALWAYS slow you down more than help you.

Also, no offense, but that pooling system for VW/WoE is completely fucking stupid. Either you pay them more for the items than the AH would, and hemorrhage LS gil, you pay them the same as the AH would, reducing your LS to a ghetto AH, or you pay them less than the AH, in which case your ls is hurting its own members.

If it's adapt or die, that ls needs to be sent to slaughter.

Quote:

---

What do I expect the Development Bros will do in lieu of just increasing the time limit? Something so weird that I can't even guess what it will be.

---

Super Development Bros: We could increase the time limit, but we would have to adjust the reward ratio downward to maintain BALANCE!!

We would also have to monitor congestion, because no matter how many or few players we have per World we're constantly skirting the red line between "Everything's Hunky Dory!" and "SERVERPOCALYPSE! One improper adjustment and the World servers (and PS2's everywhere) could gain sentience and merge into the Japanese version of Skynet. Just imagine how insane OUR Terminator army would be! No one has more crazy ideas about robots than we do!

So, we must tread carefully in regards to any adjustments to Legion unless you want to be slaughtered by busty android maids and skyscraper-sized mecha that look suspiciously like a stuntman wearing a plastic/rubber suit.

I don't actually mind high gil prices, seeing as we're rapidly heading to inflation one again. gil is so easy to create it's kinda a joke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Return1

VV, Stormbird, and various nuke atmas were available at the start and at the time were insane. Cruor Buffs themselves and a myriad of Temp items enabled anyone to take out most things at 80cap. With Scars came RR and MM, cementing "easymode" forever into abyssea.

---

"Most" things, yes. Not all. Not talking about Gnawtooth Gary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Return1

Most things could actually be duoed at the level cap for their respective expansions. And nothing, but maybe Rani, couldn't be killed by a PT of less than 6.

---

"Most things", again perhaps in theory, not in practice. As you are mentioning "duoing", I assume not all procs are covered as well and efficiency sacrificed. Let's also not forget the rep that solo NIN/DNC got taking 30 minutes to kill stuff back in the day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Return1

And what praytell were these "other events" that couldn't be lowmanned?

---

As a starting point, the others I listed last page? Should also be remembered that Heroes came out in December 2010. Few months later, Voidwatch began and if you recall, it most assuredly did not have a robust PUG community at the beginning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Return1

Personal goals are achieved faster and faster the less people you have to lug along with you. EGLSs were held together by the idea of personal advancement. Abyssea made it easier for people to lowman personal advancement, and thus having more than ~5-6 people with you will ALWAYS slow you down more than help you.

---

And that's exactly why people supplemented personal goals with LS events, reducing the loot queue for all. Having more than 5-6 people eventually slowed you down more than helped you in Abyssea, but by then the shell moved on. Burning your bridges till you only end up with 5-6 people to do stuff with slows you down more overall than helps you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Return1

Also, no offense, but that pooling system for VW/WoE is completely fucking stupid. Either you pay them more for the items than the AH would, and hemorrhage LS gil, you pay them the same as the AH would, reducing your LS to a ghetto AH, or you pay them less than the AH, in which case your ls is hurting its own members.

If it's adapt or die, that ls needs to be sent to slaughter.

---

Nobody complained when they capped out on stuff faster than they would hanging at the coattails of JPs at 4AM-6AM NA time. I appreciate the bon mot, but if anything needs to be sent to slaughter, it's limited perspectives.

Quote:

---

"Most" things, yes. Not all. Not talking about Gnawtooth Gary.

---

Name an NM that couldn't be beaten in Visions at level cap with WHM + Tank and Stormbird+VV or HP+30% atma, liberal Temps, and Cruor buffs. I think Glavoid?

Quote:

---

"Most things", again perhaps in theory, not in practice. As you are mentioning "duoing", I assume not all procs are covered as well.

---

We weren't talking about procs, we were talking difficulty. If we were, a trio of WHM, WAR, and NIN could do all red procs with select pieces of gear (and now WHM THF WAR can do the same). If you were after Blue, MNK+WHM and wait for the right time. Yellow? Drop a DD and add a BLM (It was mathed out that adding a Blue who needed drops would cost you more time than just not procing occassionally). The only reason to do abyssea besides EXP after a week or so was to get EMP items, and procing did nothing for the fights themselves.

Quote:

---

And that's exactly why people supplemented personal goals with LS events, reducing the loot queue for all. Having more than 5-6 people slows you down more than helps you in Abyssea. Burning your bridges till you only end up with 5-6 people to do stuff with slows you down more overall than helps you.

---

What?

There's not any event outside of Legion where you need a group of more than 5-6. Period. Having 5-6 is ideal in today's game.

Quote:

---

Nobody complained when they capped out on stuff faster than they would hanging at the coattails of JPs at 4AM-6AM NA time.

---

Praytell, what useful non-R/EX items did they cap out on?

Particularly, tell us how they capped out faster on these non-R/EX items with an LS event than they could have by simply farming and buying, and using their stones for R/EX equipment that they wanted specifically instead of wasting them on your events.

Also, VW didn't have a robust PUG community at the very start because no one knew how the events worked, people didn't want to waste the precious few stones they had at the start, and most of the gear sucked or at best was situational, with a couple being good.

PUGs started after a little while, and before jeuno tier. Which is when drops became significantly better.

WoEs has always been pretty trash ande always PUG.

We are getting back offtopic, but in the interest of ending this side jaunt, in answer to your questions:

1) if you are truly talking pre-Minikin, pre-broken-healer-atma Visions play, WHM + Tank for the following mobs would be either foolhardy or would waste more stones for r/ex equipment than "wasting them [on] events" as you cite such concern: Eccentric Eve, Bloodeye Vileberry, Briareus, Hadhayosh, Glavoid, Iratham, Usurper, Turul, Carabosse, Cuelebre, Chloris if unlucky doom.

2) We were talking difficulty first, but your subsequent comments were so interlaced with efficiency arguments that I felt obligated to slip it in.

3) We are debating a semantic point. There are plenty of things where one needs more than 5-6 "bodies" to round out events (and in the case of ADL, if you are doing it with 5-6 you are likely not counting mules). My point was that if you only knew 5-6 people in the game, and have to form or join /shouts for stuff like Voidwatch, you either are spending a lot of time idling in PJ or otherwise waiting for those 5-6 people to all log on simultaneously. I'd like to point out that I do PUGs for various things outside of events too, but unlike you, I wouldn't castigate a group of people who get together for events a few times a week to achieve those goals they can't easily achieve in PUGs.

4) Not taking the bait and listing each and every single useful WoE drop in response to an obviously rhetorical question, but since only about ~20% of the event's drops are useful (as with Voidwatch), it didn't take long as we weren't dealing with VW loot design, and those minority few who were making Coin weapons were glad for the runs.

5) You are assuming a healthy market on VW/WoE items and forgetting that when the event was first released, there wasn't as robust a market as there is today, and moreover some fluxes/mobs were just not done out of hand. The statement "WoE was always PUG" is also somewhat shortsighted in the context of patches that have since turned it into the Tokyo Playground where the AH is flooded with items the JP's sell.

EDIT: 6) Your last post does not refute my original point that VW was a non-lowman event released soon after the end of Heroes (and I could argue the bodies off Celaeno/Ironclad/Hahava provided at least some incentive). By the time the PUG community began to flourish, things were figured out, and drops were better, you'd have to be incredibly lucky on drop rate not to supplement PUG runs with LS runs if you had access to one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Return1

Name an NM that couldn't be beaten in Visions at level cap with WHM + Tank and Stormbird+VV or HP+30% atma, liberal Temps, and Cruor buffs. I think Glavoid?

---

All of the Emp NMs @80 weren't that easy and without Razed Ruins to boost your hit/crit rates, you likely would most likely need at least a party to win. Glavoid was the toughest NM in Visions but most of the top tier NMs weren't being duoed outside extremely skilled players and even then it took forever and required timestacking which also wasn't that easy to do in small groups during the time given our understanding of lights at the time and average killspeed.

It was Scars where time became trivial given the light assists from Bastion, Ephemerals that made getting lights faster, Empyrean WS unlocks and the unholy combo of MinikinRuins.

Quote:

---

We weren't talking about procs, we were talking difficulty. If we were, a trio of WHM, WAR, and NIN could do all red procs with select pieces of gear (and now WHM THF WAR can do the same). If you were after Blue, MNK+WHM and wait for the right time. Yellow? Drop a DD and add a BLM (It was mathed out that adding a Blue who needed drops would cost you more time than just not procing occassionally). The only reason to do abyssea besides EXP after a week or so was to get EMP items, and procing did nothing for the fights themselves.

---

You're completely eliminating the fact that Vision was pretty tough for most people @80 with or without understanding of procs. Things like Fistule and Carabosse actually hurt, certain JA and weaponskills weren't available and Razed Ruins was off the table.

Quote:

---

Oh also, apparently you can drop the Uptala to 1% and it won't die until it successfully casts Kaustra; at that point all damage just does 0 and you have to wait until it decides to fall over.

---

This is a really cool mechanic. Not exactly balanced when dealing with two other horrible monsters and a tight time limit, but it is nice that it's something beyond "I am below 25% HP and I am using that horrible AoE a lot now. A lot a lot so much so much forever! I hope you like AoE's. I like AoE's."

Instead, it's more like:

"Dost thou wish Kaustra to be cast upon thee?"
Stun!
"But thou must!"
Stun!
"But thou must!"
Shock Squall!
"But thou must!"
"But thou must!"
"But thou must!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mahoro

EDIT: 6) Your last post does not refute my original point that VW was a non-lowman event released soon after the end of Heroes (and I could argue the bodies off Celaeno/Ironclad/Hahava provided at least some incentive). By the time the PUG community began to flourish, things were figured out, and drops were better, you'd have to be incredibly lucky on drop rate not to supplement PUG runs with LS runs if you had access to one.

---

He also has total amnesia about Voidwatch when it was first came out. The original cities one was a bit of a challenge for random PUG, we were at level 90, and everyone was still trying to figure it out. I remembered it was not a very easy one albeit doable. Then SE made lots of tweak on the events and lowered the difficulty considerably, now all the cities and jeunos are super easy to do and done in matter of minutes per run. Still you need more than 5-6 people unless you get ones who are filled with temp items and decked head to toe with elite gears.

Quote:

---

1) if you are truly talking pre-Minikin, pre-any-useful-healer-atma Visions play, WHM + Tank for the following mobs would be either foolhardy or would waste more stones for r/ex equipment than "wasting them [on] events" as you cite such concern: Eccentric Eve, Bloodeye Vileberry, Briareus, Hadhayosh, Glavoid, Iratham, Usurper, Turul, Cuelebre, Chloris if unlucky doom.

---

Some of those really shouldn't have been listed. Cuelebre for example has always been a joke. The only ones to present real problems are Glavoid and Death users, and death users could be stunned with a competent Mage or DNC. PDT, MDT, Evasion, or stun can make all but glavoid very possible at 80.

Also, no one cares about abyssea stones. I was talking about VW stones.

Quote:

---

2) We were talking difficulty first, but your comments were so interlaced with efficiency arguments that I felt obligated to slip it in.

---

I get that. Doesn't change the fact a small group could always do it all and be farm more efficient. At any level cap.

Quote:

---

3) We are debating a semantic point. There are plenty of things where one needs more than 5-6 "bodies" to round out events (and in the case of ADL, if you are doing it with 5-6 you are likely not counting mules). My point was that if you only knew 5-6 people in the game, and have to form or join /shouts for stuff like Voidwatch, you either are spending a lot of time idling in PJ or otherwise waiting for those 5-6 people to all log on simultaneously.

---

ADL is a very recent addition to shit people actually do, and only a select few do it. ADL does require a group, and for any kind of efficiency, more than 6. That said, one monster in all the evvents out, isn't really justification for a whole EGLS.

Or you can organize/do PUGs instead of waiting on others times to line up with yours for shit you don't need them on. VW kills EGLSs because you can't gift/govern, and people have their own goals. There's no benefit to them using stones or wasting time at your events when they could just pick and choose the events that benefit them. An ls offers 0 advantages over a PUG for VW/WoE, and several disadvantages.

Quote:

---

5) You are assuming a healthy market on WoE items and forgetting that when the event was first released, there wasn't as robust a market as there is today, and moreover some fluxes were just not done out of hand.

---

Or that most of the rewards are dogshit and easily replaced. If the item was good enough, you had better odds finding one for sale and farming the gil for it than actually finding one from the event. Also it was heavy on PUGs from the start and you couldn't gift/govern because people could just enter and take your gear and then it went to personal reward as well.

Quote:

---

6) Your last post does not refute my original point that VW was a non-lowman event released soon after the end of Heroes. By the time the PUG community flourished, things were figured out, and drops were better, you'd have to be incredibly lucky on drop rate not to supplement PUG runs with LS runs if you had access to one.

---

It was a non (mainstream) PUG event for about a month. PUGs did do it after about the first week, but it wasn't very large until it had been mapped out. You didn't cap everyone out on their drops with just a months worth of stones, especially considering those kills sucked in comparison because you didn't know how to boost lights.

The drops from the only wave not to have an immediate large PUG response, was the wave with the hands down worst drops, and it was only a temporary use for an LS. The event itself did far more harm than help for an LS.

Your whole argument is an ls could just twist people's arms to do an unknown event when it first comes out. That's the only advantage was early on you could provide knowledge on the subject.

The 1 stone per day initial limit had more to do with PUGs not being big on VW when it first began, than the event not being lowman friendly. And the bigest reason the lowest levels weren't lowman friendly is because of the stupid lights/proc system.

Just want to point out my friend, my wife (and her mule), and I could kill all tier1s as PLD, BRD, BLU, WHM, Tier 2s we killed as SMNs and BRD, we picked up a couple SMNs for Lorb and Ogbun, and that even worked on one tier 3 (Tonberry).

1) You say some of those Visions NMs shouldn't be listed, but don't assert you could duo all of them as WHM + tank @ 80. For the reasons I cited as well as the others Sparthosx and Luvbunny subsequently cited, I'm calling shenanigans and I'm done addressing the issue so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Even if true, any individual anecdotes of a WHM + tank spending hours whittling those mobs down does nothing to serve your larger argument.

2) Organizing PUGs sucks up no less time idling in PJ. That is in fact what I meant by idling, /shouting endlessly or waiting endlessly for people to gather. I do it myself for certain mobs I do outside of events. Pressing /yell for the thirtieth time in order to get that event mobilized is neither glamorous, efficient, or a justification for not doing things with a more permanent large group.

3) Never said one monster is the justification for EGLS. I made an exhaustive list of events and benefits about two pages ago. Not all of them are the exclusive province of EGLS's, nor did I ever claim they were.

4) VW doesn't "kill" EGLS's when it comes to fights like upper-tier NM's and Prov Watcher inasmuch as PUG success rate can be spotty for mobs like Kalasu/Morta/Bismarck/Ig-Alima/Fjalar/Ildebrann/Aello (the latter two before cap raise obviously); you can gift/govern in PW instead of having people fight over freelot drops; and people in EGLS are getting point benefits attending mobs they don't necessarily need anything from that they turn around and spend on stuff they do need (e.g., Umbral Marrow).

5) Re: WoE: Nobody lost a drop from leeches entering and lotting on gear, as the shell would just cast lots until they outlotted any leechers. Gift/govern was covered already. Your statement about most of the rewards being "dogshit" does nothing to advance the argument since I freely admitted that only 20% of the drops were useful. I freely admit only 20% of the drops in Voidwatch and Legion are useful too. What's the difference? In any event, we didn't live in WoE. People capped their shit and we moved on, relegating it to a more occasional thing. Not everything could be bought on the AH to the extent it is today, and the zone lay dead more often than not during NA primetime. If you want an example, for almost eight months people on Lakshmi didn't touch the Turtle flux and its drops went unsold on the AH. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

6) Re: VW: Don't need capped lights for some of the more common drops. Yes, capped out people on non-ra/ex VW drops first month since by your own admission most were shit anyway and the demand was easily met. The event didn't do far worse than harm for a LS once everyone was able to pop and farm T4 cities, so I'm not sure where you are going with that. If you want to talk about more harm, I could raise the fact that most people in PUGs couldn't be arsed with getting their temp item KIs in the beginning. Your statement about 1 stone per day being the driving reason why PUGs didn't adopt the event early is misleading at best, and inaccurate at worst, for the reasons Luvbunny stated. Moreover, before 2012 when people started capping their Voidwatch gear needs, there remained no compelling reason to /toss a linkpearl when LS runs supplemented PUG runs for those rarest of rare drops.

7) My "whole argument" is a response to your argument, nothing more. YOU are the one trying to argue from past circumstantial evidence that for the last 2-3 years EGLS weren't needed. I already provided my affirmative argument a couple pages ago for what EGLS's do in 2012. Now you have me arguing for their benefit in 2010-2011, which is wasting both our time and subjecting the people in this thread to armchair recollection. I don't like repeating myself nor answering to strawman points. In the end, some people have different playstyles and don't feel the need to "lowman all teh thingz" or spend hours standing around on ceremony. Some people like to log on during a preset time, run with the same group of people, accomplish shit, and then log off.

Anything else or shall we get back to the topic of this thread?

I think your listed methods are slow, stupid, and sloppy. I can't take someone that lists Ildebrann as hard at any cap serious. We will agree to disagree.


This thread could have ended on topic a while ago by just saying make Legion a 2 hour time limit event.

Not hard for us, hard for PUGs (which can be slow, stupid and sloppy eh? I listed one method btw). Note I commented on spotty success rate of PUGs. Agreed on time limit. Carry on.

holy derailments batman!

They definitely should do it like dynamis, 60 minutes limit with 5 time extensions up to 120 mnts when you killed certain mob or NMs. And they need to lower the difficulty by a great deal. We know that the drop rates is going to be crappy and the points are going to be dismal, which makes this another hamster grind wheel of death that will quickly be forgotten, they should at least try to adjust and revamp it. The developers so far show very minimal efforts on Legion and Neo Nyzul. Please work harder and show some love the way you did on Walk of Echoes and Voidwatch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Return1

No MMO will make it far if there isn't pride in getting uberleet awesome gear that acts as elevated status. It's one of the major drawing points to MMOs. The trials and tribulations, the stories, the drama, and the legends are what make an MMO good, once you take that away, you've got a dying game. MMOs are mainly interactive soap operas. Once you take the drama out, it's just a lame waste of time.

---

pretty sure wow was doing just fine until last year when they started making the game hard

Sad thing is, the developer will not do anything to Legion or Neo Nyzul or all the new upcoming contents (neo limbus, neo einhenjar....). Their respond to Neo Nyzul kind of proved this. They will not budge or change or do anything or listen to player feedback. We are at the wrong forum of the wrong game. Just pray that Yoshi get to helm both game and reboot FFXI with the same great vision and attitude that he has and disband this current team on FFXI.... Living in total void and echo chamber is what this current team does, they don't care about no one but themselves. We are nothing but cows that are milked for our monthly subscriptions.

Hey everyone,

Looking at the current situation in-game for Legion we understand that it is difficult to gather participants and the content itself is quite challenging.

Regarding the rewards, we feel it is a bit early to judge whether they are sufficient or not for this content. As progress is made in Legion more and more equipment will be accessible for exchange through Legion points and there are also a wide variety of special new weapons that are only obtainable within Legion. Not to mention that the drop rates for Arise and Meteor are higher than the Provenance Watcher battle.

We will continue to monitor the situation, but we would ultimately like to see players progress through this content a bit by forming good strategies before we do anything with the reward system.

Embrava + Perfect Defense + Zerg with a sprinkling of Chainspell stun is not a strategy and that's the only thing that anyone has found that works. You can't have any other viable strats when you need to kill something with instant KO AoEs and 100k hp in less than 3 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Okipuit

Looking at the current situation in-game for Legion we understand that it is difficult to gather participants

---

Said this as soon as Legion was announced. The days of having content with a large number of people is over. It was foolish to make anything new that relies on large numbers.