Legion still sucks.

[saevel]

And I understand those LS existed, but I would venture to say they were never the "vast" majority (which by the way you underlined it, you likely mean 75% or more). And the ones that have actually survived to 2012 have survived in great part because they are not like that, or if some are, they are in the vast minority now.

Re Abyssea: I completely agree. I actually preferred it at level 80 cap. In fact, my favorite was Visions, before the RR/Minikin dozefests began (speaking from a WHM lv. 90 perspective btw). I am not sure we can say with certainty whether Abyssea's "designed difficulty" was lv 80 cap, or whether they always intended to introduce the overpowered Atma and Abyssites. You are assuming content that was introduced in installments was also designed in installments. I do know it is possible not to design an event as "challenging" as Legion or as arbitrary as Neo-Nyzul, yet not as neutered as Abyssea became at lv. 90.

I am aware I could render any event as challenging as I want it by level syncing or going without buffs. However, that does not ultimately serve as an excuse for designing it as such. As for not doing Abyssea with atma, I already do. It's essentially called Voidwatch. Where the atmacite aren't nearly as good as the atma, yet I have most of the temps from Abyssea.

We've both been around a long time, I can remember EGLS's back in 04. During that time I've participated in many LS's doing many events throughout the RNG then later SAM craze. Most where completely and utter sh!t, only shell I felt was really solid (back then) was LoO and even that started to favor a select minority near the end. Most shells formed, got their leaders gear and later fell apart only to be reformed again. DKP systems were abused, LS banks were abused, and "job priority's" got abused, ultimately there is no fair setup that can't be abused, it's entirely in the LS leaders hands to run things fairly. The good solid shells survived the abyssea crash that destroyed most HNM shells, that's the only reason there appears to be good shells, because all the bad ones fell apart.

I do feel that each Abyssea expansion was designed for it's difficulty level upon release. They released them so close to each other that we ended up being level 90's doing level 80~85 content, and then later level 95's doing level 80~90 content. Three atma's and infinite-RR Apoc combined with RR / MM stupidity is what caused everything to appear "easy mode". And even now, try to take a team of 99's and fight some of those hero's NM's, their crazy hard without abusing broken atma / brews. Abyssea is only "easy mode" if people want it to be, basically it had built in adjustable difficulty / "challenge". Which goes to show people never wanted "challenge" they wanted exclusivity, they wanted content just hard enough for them to beat it, but too hard for players they deemed their "lessors" to beat it. Thus they could acquire shinys that others couldn't and show them off.

[Luvbunny]

Abyssea is only "easy mode" if people want it to be, basically it had built in adjustable difficulty / "challenge". Which goes to show people never wanted "challenge" they wanted exclusivity, they wanted content just hard enough for them to beat it, but too hard for players they deemed their "lessors" to beat it. Thus they could acquire shinys that others couldn't and show them off.

You nailed it, square Enjoyed reading your observation.

[Return1]

They're crazy hard when you intentionally gimp yourself!

Dumbest argument EVER.

[Camiie]

As for Abyssea breaking up LSes... All it did was show just how fake most of the "deep bonds and friendships" built through sky, sea, dynamis, HNM, etc. really were. There was no reason for any LS to break up over Abyssea. SE shouldn't have to force us to need each other for us to help one another. Unfortunately, LS leaders and rank-and-file members saw that they didn't need each other anymore so they split.

It's funny though. The hardcore, Abyssea-is-too-easy crowd couldn't get their Empyreans done fast enough. They didn't have time to waste on anyone outside their cliques. There was no reason that "extra" folks couldn't come along. There was no reason everyone in the old-school EGLS couldn't be decked out in +2s and Empyreans and whatever other gear they needed. SE gave us that potential, and we blew it. Why? Selfishness and narcissism.

Think of how much more smoothly VW, Neo-Nyzul, and Legion would go if LSes had had the sense to stick together through Abyssea and get everyone geared up. Sure the newer events would still need adjustments, but there wouldn't be as many undergeared and unprepared folks out there and you wouldn't be having to shout for every single fight.

Hindsight is 20/20 but we partially set ourselves up for the mess we're in now.

[SpankWustler]

This event is only for the more High elite player base.

For success in legion you need something only 5% of the player base have.

Not is enough have good gear
Not is enough play Well your job.
Not is enough have knowedge.

This 3 things are only a part of what is necesary. For success in legion you need 18 or 36 players EXCELING in their jobs.

Elite players show they are the kings "Playing". When i mean playing. Not in a forum shuting mouths, not in jueno standing with Shiny gear, not playing "Pretty". I repeat you need show you EXCEL your job.

DDS have years parsing their events and doing MASSIVE damage in every event they play. You need speed, timing and brain for excel using DD job. Not everyone can be a Elite DD.

Healers with bionic fast fingers and give a total calm when you know x person is your healer.

Dedicated Tanks give calm the entire ally.


Probably with the Legion nerf then this event will become more accesible for majority the player base.

I think this post is the result of someone actually forming a telepathic link with the Development Bros and transcribing their inhuman thought process. Not because the general idea, as far as I can tell, is "Legion isn't that bad". Because the phrasing makes little-to-no sense and revels in vagueness.

Although, I do agree that knowing how to use spreadsheet programs such as Excel can help fine-tune one's performance in Final Fantasy XI.

[Mahoro]

We've both been around a long time, I can remember EGLS's back in 04. During that time I've participated in many LS's doing many events throughout the RNG then later SAM craze. Most where completely and utter sh!t, only shell I felt was really solid (back then) was LoO and even that started to favor a select minority near the end. Most shells formed, got their leaders gear and later fell apart only to be reformed again. DKP systems were abused, LS banks were abused, and "job priority's" got abused, ultimately there is no fair setup that can't be abused, it's entirely in the LS leaders hands to run things fairly. The good solid shells survived the abyssea crash that destroyed most HNM shells, that's the only reason there appears to be good shells, because all the bad ones fell apart.

I am not denying that there were shells that did all you say. I am suggesting that it did not happen in the frequency with which you originally suggested (i.e., the vast majority). I have generally found there to be an antithesis to the "rose-colored glasses" phenomenon which I call, for lack of a better term, "shit-stained glasses". It happens when people form an opinion that masses various negative anecdotes they experienced or heard about in the past into a collective view that becomes "the way it was," which is then selectively reinforced such that any positive anecdotes are not properly registered or acknowledged because they don't fit that view. I just want to be careful about acknowledging the flipside view. You are correct in that we've both been around a long time, and I remember the EGLS's I've been in since '03-'04 as well. I had many experiences with solid shells, and for every LoO there was a Rusty Buckets or Anduril, etc. Obviously, it would be foolhardy of me to say systems and banks were never abused, but it doesn't sound right to me that they were the "vast majority" (which by the way you underlined is a loaded term I take to mean at least 65%).

I do feel that each Abyssea expansion was designed for it's difficulty level upon release. They released them so close to each other that we ended up being level 90's doing level 80~85 content, and then later level 95's doing level 80~90 content. Three atma's and infinite-RR Apoc combined with RR / MM stupidity is what caused everything to appear "easy mode". And even now, try to take a team of 99's and fight some of those hero's NM's, their crazy hard without abusing broken atma / brews. Abyssea is only "easy mode" if people want it to be, basically it had built in adjustable difficulty / "challenge". Which goes to show people never wanted "challenge" they wanted exclusivity, they wanted content just hard enough for them to beat it, but too hard for players they deemed their "lessors" to beat it. Thus they could acquire shinys that others couldn't and show them off.

It is the very fact that they were released so close together that I don't believe they were designed in installments. It feels "off" to me to conjecture that in the 3 month period between Visions and Scars, the dev team said "oh hey we should give them a 2nd and a 3rd atma!" I think SE had a decent idea of the "vision" of Abyssea. I also find it doubtful that they didn't forecast the effects of the level cap as they had put it on a set schedule when Abyssea was first announced. But in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I guess we can't really say for certain.

While technically accurate, it is a bit misleading to say that Abyssea is only "easy mode" if people want it to be. It is "easy mode" because the players take advantage of the design choices SE made, and that condition does not change for everyone else if a subset of players consent to willingly refuse RR/Minikin/infinite RR atma, cruor buffs, and 200k brews. Think what would happen if, instead of punching in the Konami code for Contra, the benefits of the Konami code were built into the infrastructure of the game itself. Critics and players alike would pan it for being too easy. Assuming that everyone equates challenge with exclusivity is a dangerous assumption to make, because it is perfectly consistent to crave accomplishments worthy of the name without wanting those very same accomplishments to be inaccessible to other people.

There was no reason for any LS to break up over Abyssea.

Couldn't agree with this more. There were lots of techniques shell leaders could have used to keep things together. Ultimately, I agree with Saevel in that you can have an ironclad system, but it is up to the strength of the leaders to sustain it as some have in 2012.

[Sparthos]

As for Abyssea breaking up LSes... All it did was show just how fake most of the "deep bonds and friendships" built through sky, sea, dynamis, HNM, etc. really were. There was no reason for any LS to break up over Abyssea. SE shouldn't have to force us to need each other for us to help one another. Unfortunately, LS leaders and rank-and-file members saw that they didn't need each other anymore so they split.

It's funny though. The hardcore, Abyssea-is-too-easy crowd couldn't get their Empyreans done fast enough. They didn't have time to waste on anyone outside their cliques. There was no reason that "extra" folks couldn't come along. There was no reason everyone in the old-school EGLS couldn't be decked out in +2s and Empyreans and whatever other gear they needed. SE gave us that potential, and we blew it. Why? Selfishness and narcissism.

Think of how much more smoothly VW, Neo-Nyzul, and Legion would go if LSes had had the sense to stick together through Abyssea and get everyone geared up. Sure the newer events would still need adjustments, but there wouldn't be as many undergeared and unprepared folks out there and you wouldn't be having to shout for every single fight.

Hindsight is 20/20 but we partially set ourselves up for the mess we're in now.

I admire your idealism but as someone who was a member of nearly every endgame LS on my server and acted as a leader for some time, LS' were held together largely in this fashion:

Leadership - driven by goals, gear or personal interest.

Sackholders - the people in LS who share similar interests as leadership or have proven competency at handling LS members.

Members: Tier 1 - these individuals play their jobs well but aren't leadership material. It may be their elitist attitude, their tendency to parsewhore, the abrasive manner in which they deal with others or perhaps they're just a bit too nice or can't put their foot down like a sackholder should - ideally. These individuals are your A team, the people who memorize TP moves by heart, the mathletes, your groups best players and the individuals you want at events if you can.

Members: Tier 2 - Your 'average' players. These individuals are competent members of an LS and largely take a largely laissez faire approach to being in a group. Perhaps they just don't have the time to partake in being too involved with an event, they are playing while doing something else (like work) or perhaps XI is just a hobby and being the best comes second to having fun. When sackholders and T1s get upset about a wipe or screwups these individuals just shrug it off and move on to the next issue and for the most part you can count on these individuals doing what is expected of them up to a point.

Members: Tier 3 - Your substandard LS members. These individuals are largely either kept around because they fill a hole in the LS, were formerly average players or have personalities that make them conducive to keep around. These are people who clearly had no idea what they were doing or had to be told 50x to do X action but were at events because they make for interesting conversation, are morale boosters, seem like cool peeps on Vent or LS leadership just couldn't pull the trigger on them for personal reasons.

Cannon fodder/Scrubs - The worst of the worst. These are largely substandard individuals, excessive whiners, dramawhores or server rejects who did unsavory things to get ahead. These people were largely brought into shells because of gear (omg relics), excessive gilbuying (bankrollin' LS relics), bad LS recruiting (she's a Mithra!) or access to 3rd party tools that would benefit the LS in the long run. While these individuals could be skilled players usually they were too volatile as individuals to ever be considered LS members for long or planned to jump ship once they got that coveted piece they joined for.

XI was held together by a need to join large groups to get anything (worth doing) done and yes, when the option arose to break into smaller pieces many people took that option. Why? It's not simply because of selfishness and narcissism as you point but out but because LS' often became weighed down by incompetent individuals or just plain unlikable people you kept around just because you had to (you needed the numbers). I've been booted from LS' for not agreeing with leadership and have booted people who were only around to start trouble or work within their cliques and that was fine - for pre-2010 content.

Why keep such people around? Many LS simply downsized or lost huge blocks of members during the '09 void or during Abyssea as drops became simpler to obtain in smaller groups. Who said anything about 'deep bonds' anyway? If your LS lost leadership and became largely bloated with T3/scrub members you likely folded. If your LS kept leadership and had some good players around it might morph into a closed LS that helped only itself or chose to press on, replacing members. Or maybe your LS just became a social because leadership folded and no sackholder wanted to ascend to a leadership role.

Most LS' were creatures of necessity and friendships largely boiled down to either respect, smalltalk or mutual interest within a chatroom environment. Only in rare cases did such things as true friendships (beyond the bonds of FFXI), romantic interests or true hatred form from being in EGLS' and I've been privy to observing all 3 scenarios. To assert that these things were the norm is putting some spin on the reality of it.

Your point about smoothness also only applies to VW where yes, EGLS' can bang out more runs with a group that largely knows eachother but guess what? LS can't do much about the shitty rates, the inability to gift loot or DKP drops. You could do the same runs with a PUG and that undercut the need for an LS altogether.

Neo Nyzul? It's Embravas and 3rd party tools or enjoy Floor 80 at a low rate. Floor 100 pieces at a snail's pace. No LS is going to save you here unless you decide to use the aforementioned tools.

Legion? Perfect Defense, Embrava or again enjoy your losses. The loot is bad, the LS incentive thin and the fun factor low (throw as many WS into it!!!). It could be an ideal 2012 LS event but unless it gets a facelift it'll be up there with Yilbegan and Pankration forever.

[Mahoro]

That's a very insightful post Spart, and I can't say I disagree with your classifications and tiers LOL.

As for what keeps such people around nowadays, this is a sample EGLS Event List 2012:

(i) Voidwatch (with a healthy focus on Prov Watcher due to pooled loot, as well as other upper-tier VWNMs that people have 50/50 or lower rates of success with in PUGs, and "unpopular" lower tier VWNMs by request for which people have trouble marshalling PUGs);
(ii) Arch Dynamis Bosses (ADL and other zones by request like Dyna Jeuno);
(iii) Einherjar (only once a week, although when it gets revamped in a couple months for level 99 perhaps more);
(iv) Walk of Echoes (clearing a flux with strangers successfully in NA time is getting rarer and rarer);
(v) Legion (although the event is still horribly unbaranced); and
(vi) Mixed Potluck of older events by request (Pandy Warden, AV, Kirin, etc.).

Benefits:
a) More runs of each event;
b) more efficiency/organization/success;
c) access to things rarely shouted for that never get off the ground even when done so due to private popped nature;
d) events start 2-4 times faster than PUGs take to gather (especially for less popular content) and the sum of time one spends waiting or /shouting in PJ adds up quite a bit;
e) pooled loot on Prov Watcher sorted via DKP rules instead of freelot (scroll priority to those who use, WHM and BLM don't cry hot tearz of shame when DRG outlots them to sell);
f) more potential for multiple ADLs done with less potential for screwups per run versus static group of 7-8+ people who have to get ~40 Marrows and only kill 1-2 per run with 50/50 success rate pending access to more SMN/COR;
g) sucessful WoE runs which is a rarity with strangers in NA time these days for the admittedly only ~15% useful things it drops;
h) successful Legion runs when it is finally balanced in 2013 (lol) for the admittedly only ~20% useful things it drops;
i) convincing friends to kill your popped Dynamis Arch Boss can be nigh-impossible when it seems every Tom, Dick, and Shantotto views Dynamis as lost gil opportunity cost;
j) access to pool of players with accountability as you play with them all the time for statics for Nyzul/Limbus;
k) flipside argument asserted by many people these days is "start your own static" for most of the non-PUG stuff above but the ephemeral temperament of many players these days sometimes prevents accountability, responsibility, or ability to commit;
l) flipside argument is all of the above can technically be shouted for but can be a solitary pursuit and depending on event one's goals may never be realized.

[FrankReynolds]

Hmmm... If they could just find another reward to give people for beating stuff in "God Mode" besides gear, they would solve a lot of problems. Gimps would still be able to get good gear, and "Elites" would be able to show off their shiny new rank / glowy effect / whatever other B.S. SE can come up with as a reward. For example, they could have made gear attained without the use of atmas come in a different (more attractive) color. Or allowed people to pick the color. They could have done the same thing with empyrian weapons etc.

Lots of other online games use special ranks, or gear that is only becomes available after long term play to give players goals to reach and shiny stuff to show off without actually giving them an advantage over other players.

[Sparthos]

Hmmm... If they could just find another reward to give people for beating stuff in "God Mode" besides gear, they would solve a lot of problems. Gimps would still be able to get good gear, and "Elites" would be able to show off their shiny new rank / glowy effect / whatever other B.S. SE can come up with as a reward. For example, they could have made gear attained without the use of atmas come in a different (more attractive) color. Or allowed people to pick the color. They could have done the same thing with empyrian weapons etc.

Lots of other online games use special ranks, or gear that is only becomes available after long term play to give players goals to reach and shiny stuff to show off without actually giving them an advantage over other players.

A point system in Legion with good rewards would have satisfied this.