Legion still sucks.

[SpankWustler]

To be more concise than my winding and schizophrenic post earlier, the main problem I see with Legion is that people receive Voidwatch-style rewards after putting in a Neo-Nyzul Isle level of effort.

Legion is a very challenging event yet has very few items that could qualify as "best-in-slot" for anything ever. Off the top of my head, I can only think of Wrathwing Nails because of the large amount of Store TP on them.

Some of the drops are ridiculously bad, to the point it can be questioned why the item exists at all, which is another parallel to Voidwatch rewards.

[Mahoro]

100% in agreement with your entire post Spank. Someone on another forum came up with this list which I tweaked a little:

Meteor
Arise
Khepri head abjuration
Iaso head abjuration
Misc. head/feet abjurations pending augments
Duplus Grip
Striga Crown
A'as Circlet
Fulad-Zereh
Ayao's Gages
Maniacus Sash
Chuparrosa Mantle
Asklepian Ring
Veneficium Ring
Esper Earring
Magavan Slops
Miodio Gloves
Mustela Brais
Ngen Seraweels
Wrathwing Nails
Wurrukatte Boots
Trophy for HQ crafted gear augments

Some of those are best-in-slot for certain jobs, others are sidegrades or one-action-macro pieces, some are realistically unattainable until 2013 when crafting is fixed. If these drops were in another event like WoE, people would go after 'em eventually, but I am completely in agreement when you say they put Voidwatch-style rewards in an event requiring a Neo-Nyzul level of challenge.

[Return1]

Bonds of Friendship in a functioning EGLS? C'mon. C'moooooooooon! "Friendship" was also a breeding ground for favoritism and factions, dangerous things for any LS. EGLSs ran on respect or the idea of Mutual benefit.

I think sparthos really nailed it with his breakdown.

Abyssea rewarded small groups more than large groups, and the ability to get gear so fast undermined the idea of waiting in line for a queue in larger shells.

WoE/VW removed entirely the ability for LSes to govern/gift their own loot, which is the main purpose of an EGLS.

You can hardly blame people for doing the smart thing at the time, especially after the next event to come down the pipe dug EGLS's coffin up and put extra nails in it.

The changes to Dynamis also encourage lowman/solo play, and Dynamis once once a big part of endgame. The change was like defecating on the grave. Yes it was better for people chasing after their own, but the system to do it with is godawful.

Now EGLSs would be the ones to benefit most from Legion, but they're dead and gone for the most part, and with good reason too.


Also, can we all agree that the unrealistic "challenge" is simply the retarded time limits?

[Mahoro]

Oh, I do. It's the unrealistic time limits that force one to resort to PD/Embrava zergs.

Re: your other comments. Abyssea rewarded smaller groups only after the introduction of RR/minikin/RR atma. And even then, it rewarded smaller groups per NM. Some shells broke up into mini-groups within each zone (or multiple zones), or concentrated on the top-tier bosses like Pantokrator/Apademak/caturae/Ironclads etc. that people couldn't realistically duo for a long time. By the time they could, the shell adapted and moved on to other events people couldn't lowman. While this was going on, people would work on side goals outside of event time, thereby shortening any "loot queue" inside of event time. Through techniques like these, EGLS's evolved and survived by supplementing members' goals, not impeding them. Regarding WoE/VW, another technique by which shells survived was to pool non-ra/ex equipment for bidding/buying amongst the members (rewarding the person who pooled it with DKP or gil of course) so that items stayed in-house and people capped out faster. I am reminded of the phrase "Adapt or Die" when discussing these issues.

[Insaniac]

I for some reason decided to remake your list with links. So people who are usually lazy like me can just clicky and discuss.

Duplus Grip
Striga Crown
A'as Circlet
Fulad-Zereh
Ayao's Gages
Maniacus Sash
Chuparrosa Mantle
Asklepian Ring
Veneficium Ring
Esper Earring
Magavan Slops
Miodio Gloves
Mustela Brais
Ngen Seraweels
Wrathwing Nails
Wurrukatte Boots

I honestly don't think I would use anything but the DA grip and the BP damage+ items even if I could buy them off the ah for 10k. Now if you could get them easily a lot of people without access to best in slot pieces would use them but this stuff is harder to get than the best in slot pieces.

[SpankWustler]

I forgot all about Legion's sad and disturbing relationship with 110 Crafting until Mahoro mentioned it. The best thing anyone can say about Legion rewards is probably, "Because of how the Legion augment system is designed, the heavy presence of stuff currently unrealistic to craft in High-Quality means the rewards will be seen as better next year!"

Of course, anyone who said that would probably also say, "That homeless guy is really just free! Free from the weight of society! Free from bathing! Free from sobriety! Free from his leg that had to be amputated due to frost bite!"

Also, can we all agree that the unrealistic "challenge" is simply the retarded time limits?

Increasing the time limit for Legion would be really nice. More time would increase the reward for both groups that do well enough at present and groups that do not. The latter could do well enough to get the titles, maybe, and the former could just mow down more monsters than they already do for more drops and more points per entry and entry fee.

This would also enable a much larger number of people from both of those groups to regularly purchase the point-obtained equipment sets and sell them on the auction house. Those equipment sets gain a lot more appeal when considered as things that are just bought and later sold when the bestest of thingies are obtained, or when considered as "stuff I spend useless points on and sell for money to buy better stuff".

What do I expect the Development Bros will do in lieu of just increasing the time limit? Something so weird that I can't even guess what it will be.

[Mahoro]

@Insaniak I only really gear BRD, WHM, and SMN, and I would use the BP+ damage pieces too. Also Iaso Mitra for WHM (abjurations aren't on your links), only when crafting is fixed and the HQs go for 5 mill in 2013 (which incidentally is when I expect Legion to be more popular lol). Arise I got from Prov Watcher but it would be interesting to see if the scrolls drop at a higher rate here.

Anyway, on a related note (since we are slowly getting back on topic), a group tried the final chamber:

Final chamber is straight up retarded with 18; the Voidwrought model IG has the most random hate ever and just trashes people locked in every single time effectively ending that run for the most part. Most we got killed was 1 mob after the IG, which you basically have no choice but to fight first because it's gonna come for your alli regardless of who aggros him.
Uptala dropped Kagotsurube if anyone cares.

Oh also, apparently you can drop the Uptala to 1% and it won't die until it successfully casts Kaustra; at that point all damage just does 0 and you have to wait until it decides to fall over.

Really, SE? These mob mechanics in a 30 minute chamber? >< Increase that time limit!

[Insaniac]

I also forgot about the ABJs that might end up being amazing with augments but since -1s are 40-100mil or just nonexistent due to a severe lack of crafting mat supply that I can't imagine will ever be fixed and the augment items have yet to be obtained by anyone afaik there's not much point discussing them.

[Return1]

Re: your other comments. Abyssea rewarded smaller groups only after the introduction of RR/minikin/RR atma.

VV, Stormbird, and various nuke atmas were available at the start and at the time were insane. Cruor Buffs themselves and a myriad of Temp items enabled anyone to take out most things at 80cap. With Scars came RR and MM, cementing "easymode" forever into abyssea.

Some shells broke up into mini-groups within each zone (or multiple zones), or concentrated on the top-tier bosses like Pantokrator/Apademak/caturae/Ironclads etc. that people couldn't realistically duo for a long time. By the time they could, the shell adapted and moved on to other events people couldn't lowman.

Most things could actually be duoed at the level cap for their respective expansions. And nothing, but maybe Rani, couldn't be killed by a PT of less than 6.

And what praytell were these "other events" that couldn't be lowmanned?

Through techniques like these, they evolved and survived by supplementing members' goals, not impeding them. Regarding WoE/VW, another technique by which shells survived was to pool non-ra/ex equipment for bidding/buying amongst the members (rewarding the person who pooled it with DKP or gil of course) so that items stayed in-house and people capped out faster. I am reminded of the phrase "Adapt or Die" when discussing these issues.

Personal goals are achieved faster and faster the less people you have to lug along with you. EGLSs were held together by the idea of personal advancement. Abyssea made it easier for people to lowman personal advancement, and thus having more than ~5-6 people with you will ALWAYS slow you down more than help you.

Also, no offense, but that pooling system for VW/WoE is completely fucking stupid. Either you pay them more for the items than the AH would, and hemorrhage LS gil, you pay them the same as the AH would, reducing your LS to a ghetto AH, or you pay them less than the AH, in which case your ls is hurting its own members.

If it's adapt or die, that ls needs to be sent to slaughter.

[Camiie]

What do I expect the Development Bros will do in lieu of just increasing the time limit? Something so weird that I can't even guess what it will be.

Super Development Bros: We could increase the time limit, but we would have to adjust the reward ratio downward to maintain BALANCE!!

We would also have to monitor congestion, because no matter how many or few players we have per World we're constantly skirting the red line between "Everything's Hunky Dory!" and "SERVERPOCALYPSE! One improper adjustment and the World servers (and PS2's everywhere) could gain sentience and merge into the Japanese version of Skynet. Just imagine how insane OUR Terminator army would be! No one has more crazy ideas about robots than we do!

So, we must tread carefully in regards to any adjustments to Legion unless you want to be slaughtered by busty android maids and skyscraper-sized mecha that look suspiciously like a stuntman wearing a plastic/rubber suit.