[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

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Would love to see a PUP solo iron giants in abyssea.

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For that matter, I'd like to see any other melee DD solo them. Not duo with a pocket WHM, solo.

(Not saying it's not possible, but I've yet to see it- also depends on which giant)

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I was being serious. Faster than who now? I think you're smoking instead of eating. Maybe a 5/5 Aurore Dnc you'll be faster than...

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Talking attack speed? Yeah, DNC would be faster. Talking about killing a target faster? PUP would be faster. They have better weapon skills for damaging than a DNC (Pummel/Smite), WHM bot so they're not using their TP for anything beyond Weapon Skilling. Dancer has a higher EVA than PUP (DNC EVA: B+; 376. PUP EVA: B; 370.) But PUP has Evasion Bonus IV where as DNC stops at III (granted they have closed position so they wouldn't have to swap out as much gear for eva+ as a pup would.) PUP has multiple ways of soloing though.

They can eva tank a T+ monster and pop out WHM frame for the occasional cure, then dismiss it before it takes damage (or leave it out of attack range if the aoe range of the monster's attack is small enough.) They can face tank EM or lower monsters and WHM frame still cures while applying extra damage from it's own melee. They can kite a monster while having the BLM frame being the main source of damage. (Keesha Poppo is a good example. PUPs were soloing that since 80 cap.) Or, and this really only applies to abyssea in most cases (or fighting beastmen pets,) the Automaton can tank for the PUP.

DNC really only has eva/face tanking options. And their weapon skills don't get as much damage as Pummel/Smite outside of abyssea unless they have the weapon advantage (and let's face it, Pummel/Smite have a clear advantage in abyssea for damage compared to Evisceration and DNC's low attack.)

And I just did DNC cause you were saying the only way a properly geared PUP would out perform a DNC would be a full aurore DNC. But of course, everyone is going to nit pick situations where one job out shines the others. But that's why there's 20 different jobs; for 20+ different ways to solo/defeat an enemy(ies).

DNC has the same skill level as PUP, so your attack argument is silly. DNC also has an offhand, which compensates for any gear differences that might exist.

If you do the math, Dancer does 50% more damage and gains TP more than 50% faster than a puppetless puppetmaster. So the puppet has to do about 50% of the damage that the master would do if it didn't have an automaton out in order for it to be competitive with a Dancer that only uses Haste Samba and Saber Dance.

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They can eva tank a T+ monster

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You don't even have to stack evasion to tank T mobs.

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DNC has the same skill level as PUP, so your attack argument is silly.

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Um, no, it's not a silly argument. Skill doesn't affect base damage on dagger the way it does hand to hand, and daggers have terrible base damage; on top of that, dancer does not have the same kind of capacity to boost WS damage that thief has. They can boost it somewhat, but you have to give up defense and stack gear for offense to even come close to competing with other jobs for damage. And with DNC, if you give up non-offensive stuff, you're leaving yourself open to taking more damage and thus spending more of your TP on healing yourself and not using weaponskils. A DMC tjat "only uses haste samba and saber dance" is also a dead DNC when the PUP with the healing auto would keep going.

There is no way to argue that a DNC can solo stuff faster than a PUP. PUP doesn't have to spend its TP to keep itself alive. The funny math that you're making up to make DNC sound stronger.doesn't add up. You're just pulling out random (not really even random) numbers. "DNC is 50% better this and does 50% better that, and all in all is 50% better than PUP and pup needs 50% more damage." Please, read your own post and realize how silly you sound. I totally admit guilt when it comes to being defensive about a job, but come on, you're being worse than I am about it right now... So please, describe in detail this math that we need to do to make DNC able to do more damage, or just stop.

(I really don't want to pursue this further, how about you make it easy for me?)

You really think Byrth of all people is pulling numbers out of his ass? Really?

This will not end well. I look forward to seeing it nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

You really think Byrth of all people is pulling numbers out of his ass? Really?

This will not end well. I look forward to seeing it nonetheless.

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He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.

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puppetless puppetmaster

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Since no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

As a DNC with an 85 Twashtar... Off handing a 2-4 hit trial dagger for giggles that:

1) TP is hardly an issue even when fighting an IT++ Mob

2) Pouring out the damage is hardly the issue either when storing TP to 300 Using climactic > Rudra (2-3k out of Abyssea usually) > No Foot Rise > Reverse Flourish > Rudra (1-2k usually) > Darkness (1-3k usually the difference being the Skill chain bonus that DNC has naturally)

3) For PUP to do the same I don't see that nearly as possible but I wont say that it isn't. If one PUP can I would love to hear a good repeatable strategy for GoV solo fights =)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.

Since no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

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Asking Byrth to show the math is like asking a Calculator to show the math. I'm sure he can, in fact I'm sure he will if he feels that this pointless bickering is worth his time. I just think it's hilarious that you're calling out one of the most respected mathematicians in FFXI on showing his work.

It's also a lot easier to do math comparing a Dancer to a Master, and then determine how much damage the Puppet needs to do in order to bridge the gap between the two. That is exactly what he's doing. You're also severely underestimating both jobs if you think Dancer needs constant healing 24/7 in order to solo. They are very capable of using Saber Dance offensively while staying alive without support on most things. It's not like it's impossible to switch to Fan Dance when necessary and swap right back to Saber Dance when it's safe.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.

Since no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

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If a heal was required and I had Saber Dance up... I would simply just disable it and wait for the timer to come reuse it if needed. Healing as a DNC isn't an issue... ever

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I just think it's hilarious that you're calling out one of the most respected mathematicians in FFXI on showing his work.

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I just think it's hilarious that you're expecting me to assume something someone says is true purely because they have a certain reputaiton (Which, he doesn't have this reputation in my view as he hasn't specifically demonstrated it to me, in front of me.)

I'm sorry. But
1) even the best mathmeticians can make mistakes, and
2) even the best mathemeticians show their work, and
3) at best, even the most perfect math only approximates what will actually happen in the game.
Even if you're a math professor at a university, I'm going to ask for you to show your work.

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You're also severely underestimating both jobs if you think Dancer needs constant healing 24/7 in order to solo.

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Didn't say that at all. But it is going to need some healing, which means, at a minimum, that you have to take off saber dance for a period of time, use drain samba, or some other method of recovering HP. Saber dance and fan dance both have recast timers. You can't just jump back and forth on the fly without having to wait for the other one to become available again.

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Healing as a DNC isn't an issue... ever

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Of course it's not. That isn't the issue in question. The issue in question is damage- and you have to give some of that up in order to heal yourself. PUP has to make the same kind of sacrifice, even. You can't just look at DNC in full on DD mode and compare it to a PUP that *isn't* in full-on DD mode.

(If you wanted to do that though, the automaton is certainly capable of filling the alleged 50% disparity being pulled out of nowhere)

I didn't want to post math because most people on this board don't actually understand how the game works. For instance, Skill + STR/2 = Attack. Dancer and PUP start at the same skill level and Dancer has more STR than PUP, so Dancer has higher attack before considering gear.

If you think of a potential STR/Atk Kila +3 offhand, I think it's safe to say that Dancer has at least as much attack as PUP and likely about the same STR. PUP gets more STR on their AF3+2 than Dancer does, but Dancer starts higher and gets 10 from their offhand. If DNC doesn't want to offhand a STR/Atk Kila +3, it's because something else is more beneficial to them. That's flexibility that the PUP doesn't have.


Verth is D35/+51 Delay and PUP starts with 340 delay, but they have PUP pants +2 which are -10 delay. They have 376 base H2H skill, 16 from merits, 5 from AF3+2 head, and 7 from Faith Torque. This gives them 47 base H2H damage.
(35+47)/(340+51-10) = 82/381
Assuming Epona's, Atheling, Twilight, AF3+2 head, and Brutal, PUP/WAR is looking at 3% TA and 26% DA, or 1.312 attacks per fist. If they have 25% Haste, then they're only swinging with 75% of their delay. People say it's 60 delay per second. It isn't quite, but we'll use it. Also, there are 2 fists.
60*2*1.312*(82+fSTR)/(381*.75) = PUP DPS

Dancer with Twashtar/Kila +3, 25% haste in gear, AF3+2 body/neck/Suppa, Atheling/Twilight/Epona's/Brutal/Saber Dance, and Haste Samba has:
3% TA and 34.5% DA: 1.395 attacks per dagger
30%+5%+10%+3% = 48% Dual Wield
25%+10% = 35% Haste
60*1.395*(45+fSTR + 48+fSTR)/(366*.65*.52) = DNC DPS

@fSTR=0 :
PUP DPS = 45.2
DNC DPS = 62.9
DNC divided by PUP = 1.4

@fSTR=4 :
PUP DPS = 47.4
DNC DPS = 68.3
DNC divided by PUP = 1.44

@capped fSTR= (12 for PUP and 13 for DNC)
PUP DPS = 51.8
DNC DPS = 80.5
80.5/51.8
DNC divided by PUP = 1.55


PUP has an effective delay of 190, or 5.2 TP/hit. They hit 1.312 times per fist, and swing a fist every 142.5 delay. 60 Delay per second.
60*5.2*1.312/142.5 = 2.87 TP/second before STP

DNC effectively has 95 delay per hand with this setup, meaning they hit for a base of 4.2 TP/hit. They hit 1.395 times per swing, and swing once every 62 delay. Again, 60 delay per second.
60*4.2*1.395/62 = 5.67 TP/second before STP

DNC TP Gain / PUP TP Gain = 1.97

In the worst case scenario, Steps and Reverse Flourish don't help Dancer and they shouldn't use them. In that situation, the Automaton would have to provide benefit equal to 40-55% of an Auto-less PUP's melee damage and 97% of an Auto-less PUP's WS damage.

Looking back over this, I notice I neglected Verth's 15 STR and critical hits in general. Whatever, PUP has the first and Dancer likely has more of the second (along with crit bonus). Accuracy is kind of a non-issue, because the two jobs are roughly equivalent. PUP gets a ton of Acc on their AF3+2, but Dancer gets traits and Closed Position (50 Acc). Dancer gets about 10 more STP in their ideal TP set, if you're wondering, so they actually get TP more than twice as fast as PUPs.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Of course it's not. That isn't the issue in question. The issue in question is damage- and you have to give some of that up in order to heal yourself. PUP has to make the same kind of sacrifice, even. You can't just look at DNC in full on DD mode and compare it to a PUP that *isn't* in full-on DD mode.

(If you wanted to do that though, the automaton is certainly capable of filling the alleged 50% disparity being pulled out of nowhere)

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What you're calling a sacrifice for DNC or I hardly see as one. It is TP used but the time it took to build that TP is nilch and if I even needed to or wanted to use a WS first before healing myself some HP i would.

I appriciate you coming forward with the numbers, and that's a good start.

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Dancer gets about 10 more STP in their ideal TP set, if you're wondering, so they actually get TP more than twice as fast as PUPs.

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You also need to consider the automaton's TP; even the WHM head auto can produce some, and the master can leverage that TP (which could be construed as part of the automaton's contribution to damage). The automaton's cures do not come from TP, I also don't see anything about weapon skills in there. Victory Smite is basically ideal on the PUP side and I presume Evisceration on DNC (I don't know much about Rudra but I'm pretty sure Evisceration is better?).

However, as you mentioned, this is a complicated situation, and it's further complicated by what exactly you're fighting. Your numbers do not include weapon skills, nor the impact of the TP a DNC might need to spend to stay alive. It would be hard to estimate the impact of survivability on each job's performance, however. This is where the strengths and weaknesses of each job really come into play. I'm not rock solid with the math, so maybe you can figure out a way to objectively estimate this.

Basically, you estimated the disparity the automaton needs to fill, but you didn't cover how well you think it can do that (in a vaccum where both the DNC and PUP are outputting maximum damage without regard for solo capacity)

If you sub NIN on either job, you lose Berserk (which isn't something we accounted for) and never really have a reason to take damage. In that case, you could use a DD Puppet and we don't have to account for healing. You also lose 10% DA on PUP though, and DNC loses no DA.

On DNC, which WS you want to use is pretty situational. Dancing Edge does the best damage outside Abyssea, but Evisceration and Rudra's makes darkness. Also, I've heard Stringing Pummel is generally better for PUP unless you're going to self-skillchain with Tactical Switch.

It's a bit much to assume that just because you're subbing NIN, you're never going to take damage. Even if you are absolutely perfect with your utsusemi skills, depending on what you're fighting there are things that are going to hit you.

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and DNC loses no DA.

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??? That's only if you assume they wouldn't have subbed WAR in the first place (which they wouldn't). If both jobs subbed war and switched to NIN, both jobs would lose 10% DA.

Are you also considering the fact that Saber Dance loses effectiveness over time? Even if you fully merit it, there is some loss.

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Also, I've heard Stringing Pummel is generally better for PUP unless you're going to self-skillchain with Tactical Switch

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I have also heard people say this, but in practice, my Pummels never touch my Smites. Maybe the crit damage is different on each of them or something, but I do not use Pummel anymore

Well, there are very few things in the game that make me drop Saber Dance if I'm /NIN. You can see the fountain of TP that makes up the DNC job, so 45 TP for a Waltz III every 5 minutes isn't going to matter that much to me.

Saber Dance overwrites /WAR's Double Attack trait for some reason. I am considering that it loses effectiveness. 21.5% DA is for 1/5 Saber Dance merits.

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Saber Dance overwrites /WAR's Double Attack trait for some reason.

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I did not know that. o.O

Do you also lose the effectiveness of Brutal Earring or anything else with +DA?

Nope, for some reason it just replaces trait DA. I think I linked my testing on all the wikis.

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Would love to see a PUP solo iron giants in abyssea.

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Would just like to say I took this challenege. Ironclad Executioner, First attempt, no real evasion kit by the way, died at 2% to an untimely incinerator. =\ I just picked one and stared attacking it by the way- no real preperation.

PUP can certainly do it, if you handle yourself smarter than I did for that one fight.

The stupidity in this thread is just so amazing.

We actually have plenty of SMNs in here that says no to Cure V. Meanwhile SCH and RDM scream for it, but hey, we SMNs know how to play support jobs. And PUP needed the update because their automaton didn't cast cures. Light Spirit not casting cures is just "working as intended", because which healer in this game should heal?

I accept people having opinions about how dark spirit or ice spirit updates wouldn't do much. Because 600 damage every 20 seconds or 1200 every 45 isn't a world of a difference. And that is assuming SE did the correct spell timer adjustments, there is plenty of room to fail there. This all I can understand.

But dissing Light Spirit adjustments? Really? And you are subbing mage jobs to heal people?

I do not think I'm able to comprehend such ways of thinking. Choosing bad over good because you like bad better?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The stupidity in this thread is just so amazing.

We actually have plenty of SMNs in here that says no to Cure V. Meanwhile SCH and RDM scream for it, but hey, we SMNs know how to play support jobs. And PUP needed the update because their automaton didn't cast cures. Light Spirit not casting cures is just "working as intended", because which healer in this game should heal?

I accept people having opinions about how dark spirit or ice spirit updates wouldn't do much. Because 600 damage every 20 seconds or 1200 every 45 isn't a world of a difference. And that is assuming SE did the correct spell timer adjustments, there is plenty of room to fail there. This all I can understand.

But dissing Light Spirit adjustments? Really? And you are subbing mage jobs to heal people?

I do not think I'm able to comprehend such ways of thinking. Choosing bad over good because you like bad better?

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LightSpirit isn't necessarily a SMN's only choice for healing a party. The automaton is for PUP. I wouldn't mind the AI of LightSpirit tweaked a bit, but your OP made it sound like SMN should be getting this patch over PUP.

One could say it was stupid for automatons to behave like SMN's spirits to begin with. In essence, all our elemental spirits are nothing more than usable, yet uncontrollable, elementals that we already encounter during weather effects.

Elemental spirits to SMN DO NOT mean the same thing as Automaton mean to PUP, nor are they as important to SMN. If emphasis is put on using elemental spirits instead of getting a much needed adjustments to avatar blood pacts, I'm gonna completely give it up.

If I'm main healing on SMN (which I don't anymore), I'd much rather use carbuncle with avatar favor enabled and be forced to rely on the randomness light spirits. Or... you know.... just switch to WHM.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)




Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?

Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?

Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?

Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else)


I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

Think like this. You got a math problem saying 3 + 5 = ?. Next math problem is 5 + 3 = ?.

That is your automaton and spirit code. Very similar, but not exactly the same. SE just solved 3 + 5 = 8. I suggest they solve 5 + 3 = ? while they worked out the solution to 3 + 5.


It is only logical and easy. I don't claim that it is right or deserved.

Yet another comparison. Your son is mowing the lawn. He seems to finish very fast so you ask him if he really did cut all of it. His reply is "I only did half, because it needed it more than the other half".

Again, it would have been easiest to just mow the whole lawn at once. Splitting it up so you mow half on tuesdays and half on fridays will just make it more annoying to do.


As you see, no denying PUP needs it more. Just saying that they could as well finish all AI adjustments in the same batch.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

You have to view spirits like avatar's favor. It does in no way enhance your BP:Rage spam and damage output, but it opens up new ways to support an alliance.

A functional Light Spirit would allow you to at dire situations call it out and basically add a WHM to the alliance. Bringing a WHM might have been overkill to start with, but bad luck made it a necessity. SMN simply covered it. (Or PUP, if you wanted to use that as a backup WHM solution).

A functional Light Spirit also allows you to change sub. If you can cure yourself, you can sub for example SAM and meditate TP to fill in WS triggers in VW. Or you can trigger NMs in Abyssea. Or you can simply refill MP with Myrkr if you happen to have that. I tend to sub WHM for cure IV. If I had Cure V from a trusty Light Spirit, I'd sub SCH to help nuke trigger on VW.

Other spirits have much less use. A split casting timer update like for PUP would allow them to be used as debuffers and DoTers, instead of Avatar spike damage. An obvious use would be triggers of course. But else it is mainly to avoid amnesia on an avatar, while making yourself vulnerable to silence on a spirit.

Another way to view spirits and avatars, are that avatars are for bosses and spirits are for normal mobs. After all, if a monster dies in 10 seconds, then a spirit casting nukes every 20 seconds is better than an avatar who does BPs every 45 seconds. Spirits are not meant to replace Avatars, just fill in those gaps the job has where you are just standing there watching all the BLMs, WARs etc kill monster after monster while your BP timer is ticking down.

(Best would be if spirits had -ga magic, but I doubt that would ever happen)



Maybe you were interested in an answer to your questions?

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

The stupidity in this thread is just so amazing.

We actually have plenty of SMNs in here that says no to Cure V. Meanwhile SCH and RDM scream for it, but hey, we SMNs know how to play support jobs. And PUP needed the update because their automaton didn't cast cures. Light Spirit not casting cures is just "working as intended", because which healer in this game should heal?

I accept people having opinions about how dark spirit or ice spirit updates wouldn't do much. Because 600 damage every 20 seconds or 1200 every 45 isn't a world of a difference. And that is assuming SE did the correct spell timer adjustments, there is plenty of room to fail there. This all I can understand.

But dissing Light Spirit adjustments? Really? And you are subbing mage jobs to heal people?

I do not think I'm able to comprehend such ways of thinking. Choosing bad over good because you like bad better?

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I didn't have to quote everyone of your posts in this thread mellowy, but i figured what the hell. I've bolded just one word out the whole morass, envious. Its the only really important word you've typed this entire thread imo.

All of that justifying, rationalizing, speechifying, and ultimately in the end it all comes down to the same old trite mellowy obsession.

That said, i'm not gonna go on further about why you should not be surprised this thread is going the way its going. What am gonna do is share with you a pic of who it is you remind me of mellowy. Sorry in advance but yes, my Trekkie geek-flag is being unfurled. Here's the pic and a brief bit about who it is and why it comes to mind when watching you go on here and on Alla.

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...Winn_adami.jpg
Kai Winn Adami

That is a pic of Winn Adami(eventually Kai Winn Adami, essentially the same as the Catholic Pope). She always used to pop up on the show and cause mischief under the banner of "everything i do is for the ppl in the name of the gods.."-blah blah blah. Of course this was only half of the truth.

The other half of the truth was that most of the crap she pulled was for her own selfish reasons. Chief among those reasons was the envy she felt towards another character on the show who was closer to her gods than she would ever be. In the end her envy got her burned alive.

Not a big surprise of course. Most times the villains in our stories and fables always convince themselves that their petty reasons have some some higher purpose that somehow negates any wrong done by the villain. And they keep on denying any harm they are doing until it blows up in their faces.

And no, not calling you a villain of course. FFXI is just a game after all. But this current thread of yours just snapped my take on this quest of yours into focus after all this time.

Me just having bust out the DS9 DVDs might have helped too tho...

Oooh, now we're bringing Star Trek into it... :P

Personally, I preferred Voyager over DS9.
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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Oooh, now we're bringing Star Trek into it... :P

Personally, I preferred Voyager over DS9.
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/nerd on

DS9 was far superior to Voyager.

/nerd off

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Originally Posted by Razushu

/nerd on

DS9 was far superior to Voyager.

/nerd off

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Gene Roddenberry would've hated both shows. /nerd.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Gene Roddenberry would've hated both shows. /nerd.

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/nerd I'm not sure about that. Maybe, but at least Voyager was still about exploring space, while DS9 was rooted in the area around the space station. I guess most people liked the greater amount of continuity between episdes in DS9, but I thought it was boring once the Dominion war started and the entire show was mostly about that with very few "fun" episodes (e.g. the one about baseball)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

/nerd I'm not sure about that. Maybe, but at least Voyager was still about exploring space, while DS9 was rooted in the area around the space station. I guess most people liked the greater amount of continuity between episdes in DS9, but I thought it was boring once the Dominion war started and the entire show was mostly about that with very few "fun" episodes (e.g. the one about baseball)

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Roddenberry very openly critiqued DS9, he never liked it. In general, he disliked delving into interpersonal relations and space operas on Star Trek. If you look at TOS and TNG, the tone is very different. Personal drama exists, but it is not the core of the show. Star Trek, at its roots, is a socialist utopian vision. It is about what man could be, and how man could deal with the problems of their world and their time. Each of Star Trek's primary races represent some negative facet of humanity, exaggerated for effect. Klingons represent aggression, Ferengi correspond to greed, Romulans signify secrecy and non-transparency. Even the Cardassians, who were added later, were a harsh warning against rampant nationalism and militarization.

Scifi is a vehicle for social and political commentary. Roddenberry was sending a very clear message with his original shows. That message was "put on the backburner" for later iterations of the series, which chose to address different issues or, in the case of DS9, didn't really choose to address many issues at all. It's not that he didn't think they might be entertaining or fun to watch (I still enjoyed them), but he felt that his dream and his message were being sold out in the name of entertainment.

OK, Cure 5 answered, the answer is NO. See the reply in the scholar thread. And btw, I'd kick any smn from my pt who used a spirit for any reason other than ele siphon. if you want to cure me break out Levi or Carby, you were "hired" for your damage output-if you want to heal too /whm and break out cure 4.

True story (I've mentioned it before). Saw a smn pause over what I presume was an LS mate that was K.O.'d. he summoned a light spirit because it supposedly can raise. After about 10 minutes the corpse's timer ran out and he repopped at HP. He came back out and both he and the SMN stood there and /shouted belittling insults at the light spirit for like 5 minutes. 1 of the top 5 funniest moments I've ever seen in game... (I would have helpped, but they said it was an experiment/proving a point).

Anyone who claims light spirit can raise is an idiot. Light spirit can not and was never able to cast it. This rumor was perpetuated by someone editing the page on various wikis stating that it could.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4...ainderail3.jpg

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

OK, Cure 5 answered, the answer is NO. See the reply in the scholar thread. And btw, I'd kick any smn from my pt who used a spirit for any reason other than ele siphon. if you want to cure me break out Levi or Carby, you were "hired" for your damage output-if you want to heal too /whm and break out cure 4.

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Is this a bad time to mention that spirits can proc NMs in Abyssea if you're lacking a Black Mage? There ARE reasons why you'd use a spirit at times, so it's a lousy reason to kick someone from a party. It's also possible to get a newly summoned Light Spirit to cast Curaga IV on the party with decent gear and skill.

That said, they aren't the most useful tools outside of Elemental Siphon. That's why, if anything, I'd like to see SE making them useful so that people have more reason to use them. Considering their hefty costs, they SHOULD be worth using. They cost more to upkeep than an avatar!

I'd personally advocate allowing the use of Blood Pact Rage to pick which spells you want the spirit to cast. That would at least make them suck considerably less, even though their nuking power still has a lot to be desired.

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Is this a bad time to mention that spirits can proc NMs in Abyssea if you're lacking a Black Mage?

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Good luck getting them to cast with the right timing. It's hardly even worth trying except as a desperation move because you can't control when it casts.

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That's why, if anything, I'd like to see SE making them useful so that people have more reason to use them.

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Until gimmick uses were added later, Spirits entirely existed to pad the summoner's spell list (And give players without the Zilart expansion some summons besides carbuncle). They only have special purpose uses with good reason- they should not be stealing thunder from the avatars. If they did better damage, you'd use them over the avatars. If they buffed/debuffed better, you'd use them over the avatars. The avatars are supposed to be powerful beings. Why would a generic elemental spirit ever be stronger? TL;DR: Spirits are fine for their current uses.

Summon a physical manifestation of the gods of Vana'diel?

Summon an elemental construct?

I wonder which of these is meant to be more powerful.

Well, degraded manifestation, since it still gets its ass kicked by a crab.

Just not as badly as the elemental construct does.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8...nesummoner.png

I couldn't help myself.

You're my hero.

You'd have better luck proc with spirits in Voidwatch than you would in Abyssea... just saying from experience. Spirits aren't without their uses, just limited in what they can be used for. That doesn't warrant a complete reworking of them though. Not over avatars.

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Elemental spirits to SMN DO NOT mean the same thing as Automaton mean to PUP, nor are they as important to SMN. If emphasis is put on using elemental spirits instead of getting a much needed adjustments to avatar blood pacts, I'm gonna completely give it up.

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Yes they do. Lets say you went into abyssea and want to get azure. Are you going to use Heavenly Strike to build azure? No, because even though it works as elemental damage, it does not serve the same purpose as a BLM puppet. What does serve as the same purpose is elemental spirits.

And what really does blood pacts need that you think the game will be unplayable without? More damage? Because I can't think of anything else we lack on BP:Rage. And sitting there saying "The game is better if I do 900 than 800 damage, but completely trash if I can heal for 700 instead of 400."

Honestly, I see other SMNs rant on and on about "Need better avatars!" and I just don't see the need. And it is a no brainer that at 99 some new DD pacts will arrive, and if your requested update is 100% guaranteed to happen regardless of what happens to spirits, why are you complaining? Do you honestly think fixed spirits would mean all 19 jobs get merit category 3, except SMN which they had no time to add it for?

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If I'm main healing on SMN (which I don't anymore), I'd much rather use carbuncle with avatar favor enabled and be forced to rely on the randomness light spirits. Or... you know.... just switch to WHM.

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But you know what. If you think Blood Pacts are so bad now, why do you not change job to something that you do not think perform badly? Like WAR?

Or do we only play the job swap arguments against spirits, while we can't do them against your desired updates?

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What am gonna do is share with you a pic of who it is you remind me of mellowy.

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I'm terribly offended. I'm more like Rodney in SG Atlantis. Brilliant and whining. Selfish? Well of course, you can't be a genius unless you are selfish. Arrogance also helps. All the traits of a master mind. (Evil or good)

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If they did better damage, you'd use them over the avatars. If they buffed/debuffed better, you'd use them over the avatars. The avatars are supposed to be powerful beings. Why would a generic elemental spirit ever be stronger?

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Now the tricky part. What if spirits did better DoT, but worse spike damage. If they did better debuffs, but worse buffs? Suddenly you have the choice between DoT + debuffs or Spike + buffs. Two ways to play. That is like Light arts and Dark arts for SCH.

Or perhaps you want to claim that SCH is a failure and people only use one of the arts because it is better than the other art? Like all SCH use dark only, because light arts is useless?

If all you think SMN is about is damage, then it is easy to think spirits would steal the thunder. But if you view SMN as a jack of all trades with physical, magical, spike, DoT, debuffs and buffs, you'd see the opportunities with spirits.

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That doesn't warrant a complete reworking of them though. Not over avatars.

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It is not rework though, it is reusing PUP code. Saying it is like reworking them, is like saying VW2 is a rework of VW1, because it is completely different monsters and completely different drops.

Heck, if SE had any programming sense to begin with, the fellowship NPC, automaton and spirit would have used the same AI module and these changes would have effected them all three. Spaghetti coding is currently the reason why they haven't fixed Spirits.

If only they could hire a real programmer at Square Enix. It seems like they have nobody left.

LOL there's no possible way I can justify humoring myself to respond anymore.

Elemental spirits =/= Automatons, that's it. End of story. Please move on now.