[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

[Alhanelem]

Would love to see a PUP solo iron giants in abyssea.

For that matter, I'd like to see any other melee DD solo them. Not duo with a pocket WHM, solo.

(Not saying it's not possible, but I've yet to see it- also depends on which giant)

[Mizuharu]

I was being serious. Faster than who now? I think you're smoking instead of eating. Maybe a 5/5 Aurore Dnc you'll be faster than...

Talking attack speed? Yeah, DNC would be faster. Talking about killing a target faster? PUP would be faster. They have better weapon skills for damaging than a DNC (Pummel/Smite), WHM bot so they're not using their TP for anything beyond Weapon Skilling. Dancer has a higher EVA than PUP (DNC EVA: B+; 376. PUP EVA: B; 370.) But PUP has Evasion Bonus IV where as DNC stops at III (granted they have closed position so they wouldn't have to swap out as much gear for eva+ as a pup would.) PUP has multiple ways of soloing though.

They can eva tank a T+ monster and pop out WHM frame for the occasional cure, then dismiss it before it takes damage (or leave it out of attack range if the aoe range of the monster's attack is small enough.) They can face tank EM or lower monsters and WHM frame still cures while applying extra damage from it's own melee. They can kite a monster while having the BLM frame being the main source of damage. (Keesha Poppo is a good example. PUPs were soloing that since 80 cap.) Or, and this really only applies to abyssea in most cases (or fighting beastmen pets,) the Automaton can tank for the PUP.

DNC really only has eva/face tanking options. And their weapon skills don't get as much damage as Pummel/Smite outside of abyssea unless they have the weapon advantage (and let's face it, Pummel/Smite have a clear advantage in abyssea for damage compared to Evisceration and DNC's low attack.)

And I just did DNC cause you were saying the only way a properly geared PUP would out perform a DNC would be a full aurore DNC. But of course, everyone is going to nit pick situations where one job out shines the others. But that's why there's 20 different jobs; for 20+ different ways to solo/defeat an enemy(ies).

[Byrth]

DNC has the same skill level as PUP, so your attack argument is silly. DNC also has an offhand, which compensates for any gear differences that might exist.

If you do the math, Dancer does 50% more damage and gains TP more than 50% faster than a puppetless puppetmaster. So the puppet has to do about 50% of the damage that the master would do if it didn't have an automaton out in order for it to be competitive with a Dancer that only uses Haste Samba and Saber Dance.

[Alhanelem]

They can eva tank a T+ monster

You don't even have to stack evasion to tank T mobs.

DNC has the same skill level as PUP, so your attack argument is silly.

Um, no, it's not a silly argument. Skill doesn't affect base damage on dagger the way it does hand to hand, and daggers have terrible base damage; on top of that, dancer does not have the same kind of capacity to boost WS damage that thief has. They can boost it somewhat, but you have to give up defense and stack gear for offense to even come close to competing with other jobs for damage. And with DNC, if you give up non-offensive stuff, you're leaving yourself open to taking more damage and thus spending more of your TP on healing yourself and not using weaponskils. A DMC tjat "only uses haste samba and saber dance" is also a dead DNC when the PUP with the healing auto would keep going.

There is no way to argue that a DNC can solo stuff faster than a PUP. PUP doesn't have to spend its TP to keep itself alive. The funny math that you're making up to make DNC sound stronger.doesn't add up. You're just pulling out random (not really even random) numbers. "DNC is 50% better this and does 50% better that, and all in all is 50% better than PUP and pup needs 50% more damage." Please, read your own post and realize how silly you sound. I totally admit guilt when it comes to being defensive about a job, but come on, you're being worse than I am about it right now... So please, describe in detail this math that we need to do to make DNC able to do more damage, or just stop.

(I really don't want to pursue this further, how about you make it easy for me?)

[Greatguardian]

You really think Byrth of all people is pulling numbers out of his ass? Really?

This will not end well. I look forward to seeing it nonetheless.

[Alhanelem]

You really think Byrth of all people is pulling numbers out of his ass? Really?

This will not end well. I look forward to seeing it nonetheless.

He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.

puppetless puppetmaster

Since no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

[Moink]

As a DNC with an 85 Twashtar... Off handing a 2-4 hit trial dagger for giggles that:

1) TP is hardly an issue even when fighting an IT++ Mob

2) Pouring out the damage is hardly the issue either when storing TP to 300 Using climactic > Rudra (2-3k out of Abyssea usually) > No Foot Rise > Reverse Flourish > Rudra (1-2k usually) > Darkness (1-3k usually the difference being the Skill chain bonus that DNC has naturally)

3) For PUP to do the same I don't see that nearly as possible but I wont say that it isn't. If one PUP can I would love to hear a good repeatable strategy for GoV solo fights =)

[Greatguardian]

He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.

Since no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

Asking Byrth to show the math is like asking a Calculator to show the math. I'm sure he can, in fact I'm sure he will if he feels that this pointless bickering is worth his time. I just think it's hilarious that you're calling out one of the most respected mathematicians in FFXI on showing his work.

It's also a lot easier to do math comparing a Dancer to a Master, and then determine how much damage the Puppet needs to do in order to bridge the gap between the two. That is exactly what he's doing. You're also severely underestimating both jobs if you think Dancer needs constant healing 24/7 in order to solo. They are very capable of using Saber Dance offensively while staying alive without support on most things. It's not like it's impossible to switch to Fan Dance when necessary and swap right back to Saber Dance when it's safe.

[Moink]

He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.

Since no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

If a heal was required and I had Saber Dance up... I would simply just disable it and wait for the timer to come reuse it if needed. Healing as a DNC isn't an issue... ever

[Alhanelem]

I just think it's hilarious that you're calling out one of the most respected mathematicians in FFXI on showing his work.

I just think it's hilarious that you're expecting me to assume something someone says is true purely because they have a certain reputaiton (Which, he doesn't have this reputation in my view as he hasn't specifically demonstrated it to me, in front of me.)

I'm sorry. But
1) even the best mathmeticians can make mistakes, and
2) even the best mathemeticians show their work, and
3) at best, even the most perfect math only approximates what will actually happen in the game.
Even if you're a math professor at a university, I'm going to ask for you to show your work.

You're also severely underestimating both jobs if you think Dancer needs constant healing 24/7 in order to solo.

Didn't say that at all. But it is going to need some healing, which means, at a minimum, that you have to take off saber dance for a period of time, use drain samba, or some other method of recovering HP. Saber dance and fan dance both have recast timers. You can't just jump back and forth on the fly without having to wait for the other one to become available again.

Healing as a DNC isn't an issue... ever

Of course it's not. That isn't the issue in question. The issue in question is damage- and you have to give some of that up in order to heal yourself. PUP has to make the same kind of sacrifice, even. You can't just look at DNC in full on DD mode and compare it to a PUP that *isn't* in full-on DD mode.

(If you wanted to do that though, the automaton is certainly capable of filling the alleged 50% disparity being pulled out of nowhere)