[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

[Byrth]

I didn't want to post math because most people on this board don't actually understand how the game works. For instance, Skill + STR/2 = Attack. Dancer and PUP start at the same skill level and Dancer has more STR than PUP, so Dancer has higher attack before considering gear.

If you think of a potential STR/Atk Kila +3 offhand, I think it's safe to say that Dancer has at least as much attack as PUP and likely about the same STR. PUP gets more STR on their AF3+2 than Dancer does, but Dancer starts higher and gets 10 from their offhand. If DNC doesn't want to offhand a STR/Atk Kila +3, it's because something else is more beneficial to them. That's flexibility that the PUP doesn't have.


Verth is D35/+51 Delay and PUP starts with 340 delay, but they have PUP pants +2 which are -10 delay. They have 376 base H2H skill, 16 from merits, 5 from AF3+2 head, and 7 from Faith Torque. This gives them 47 base H2H damage.
(35+47)/(340+51-10) = 82/381
Assuming Epona's, Atheling, Twilight, AF3+2 head, and Brutal, PUP/WAR is looking at 3% TA and 26% DA, or 1.312 attacks per fist. If they have 25% Haste, then they're only swinging with 75% of their delay. People say it's 60 delay per second. It isn't quite, but we'll use it. Also, there are 2 fists.
60*2*1.312*(82+fSTR)/(381*.75) = PUP DPS

Dancer with Twashtar/Kila +3, 25% haste in gear, AF3+2 body/neck/Suppa, Atheling/Twilight/Epona's/Brutal/Saber Dance, and Haste Samba has:
3% TA and 34.5% DA: 1.395 attacks per dagger
30%+5%+10%+3% = 48% Dual Wield
25%+10% = 35% Haste
60*1.395*(45+fSTR + 48+fSTR)/(366*.65*.52) = DNC DPS

@fSTR=0 :
PUP DPS = 45.2
DNC DPS = 62.9
DNC divided by PUP = 1.4

@fSTR=4 :
PUP DPS = 47.4
DNC DPS = 68.3
DNC divided by PUP = 1.44

@capped fSTR= (12 for PUP and 13 for DNC)
PUP DPS = 51.8
DNC DPS = 80.5
80.5/51.8
DNC divided by PUP = 1.55


PUP has an effective delay of 190, or 5.2 TP/hit. They hit 1.312 times per fist, and swing a fist every 142.5 delay. 60 Delay per second.
60*5.2*1.312/142.5 = 2.87 TP/second before STP

DNC effectively has 95 delay per hand with this setup, meaning they hit for a base of 4.2 TP/hit. They hit 1.395 times per swing, and swing once every 62 delay. Again, 60 delay per second.
60*4.2*1.395/62 = 5.67 TP/second before STP

DNC TP Gain / PUP TP Gain = 1.97

In the worst case scenario, Steps and Reverse Flourish don't help Dancer and they shouldn't use them. In that situation, the Automaton would have to provide benefit equal to 40-55% of an Auto-less PUP's melee damage and 97% of an Auto-less PUP's WS damage.

Looking back over this, I notice I neglected Verth's 15 STR and critical hits in general. Whatever, PUP has the first and Dancer likely has more of the second (along with crit bonus). Accuracy is kind of a non-issue, because the two jobs are roughly equivalent. PUP gets a ton of Acc on their AF3+2, but Dancer gets traits and Closed Position (50 Acc). Dancer gets about 10 more STP in their ideal TP set, if you're wondering, so they actually get TP more than twice as fast as PUPs.

[Moink]

Of course it's not. That isn't the issue in question. The issue in question is damage- and you have to give some of that up in order to heal yourself. PUP has to make the same kind of sacrifice, even. You can't just look at DNC in full on DD mode and compare it to a PUP that *isn't* in full-on DD mode.

(If you wanted to do that though, the automaton is certainly capable of filling the alleged 50% disparity being pulled out of nowhere)

What you're calling a sacrifice for DNC or I hardly see as one. It is TP used but the time it took to build that TP is nilch and if I even needed to or wanted to use a WS first before healing myself some HP i would.

[Alhanelem]

I appriciate you coming forward with the numbers, and that's a good start.

Dancer gets about 10 more STP in their ideal TP set, if you're wondering, so they actually get TP more than twice as fast as PUPs.

You also need to consider the automaton's TP; even the WHM head auto can produce some, and the master can leverage that TP (which could be construed as part of the automaton's contribution to damage). The automaton's cures do not come from TP, I also don't see anything about weapon skills in there. Victory Smite is basically ideal on the PUP side and I presume Evisceration on DNC (I don't know much about Rudra but I'm pretty sure Evisceration is better?).

However, as you mentioned, this is a complicated situation, and it's further complicated by what exactly you're fighting. Your numbers do not include weapon skills, nor the impact of the TP a DNC might need to spend to stay alive. It would be hard to estimate the impact of survivability on each job's performance, however. This is where the strengths and weaknesses of each job really come into play. I'm not rock solid with the math, so maybe you can figure out a way to objectively estimate this.

Basically, you estimated the disparity the automaton needs to fill, but you didn't cover how well you think it can do that (in a vaccum where both the DNC and PUP are outputting maximum damage without regard for solo capacity)

[Byrth]

If you sub NIN on either job, you lose Berserk (which isn't something we accounted for) and never really have a reason to take damage. In that case, you could use a DD Puppet and we don't have to account for healing. You also lose 10% DA on PUP though, and DNC loses no DA.

On DNC, which WS you want to use is pretty situational. Dancing Edge does the best damage outside Abyssea, but Evisceration and Rudra's makes darkness. Also, I've heard Stringing Pummel is generally better for PUP unless you're going to self-skillchain with Tactical Switch.

[Alhanelem]

It's a bit much to assume that just because you're subbing NIN, you're never going to take damage. Even if you are absolutely perfect with your utsusemi skills, depending on what you're fighting there are things that are going to hit you.

and DNC loses no DA.

??? That's only if you assume they wouldn't have subbed WAR in the first place (which they wouldn't). If both jobs subbed war and switched to NIN, both jobs would lose 10% DA.

Are you also considering the fact that Saber Dance loses effectiveness over time? Even if you fully merit it, there is some loss.

Also, I've heard Stringing Pummel is generally better for PUP unless you're going to self-skillchain with Tactical Switch

I have also heard people say this, but in practice, my Pummels never touch my Smites. Maybe the crit damage is different on each of them or something, but I do not use Pummel anymore

[Byrth]

Well, there are very few things in the game that make me drop Saber Dance if I'm /NIN. You can see the fountain of TP that makes up the DNC job, so 45 TP for a Waltz III every 5 minutes isn't going to matter that much to me.

Saber Dance overwrites /WAR's Double Attack trait for some reason. I am considering that it loses effectiveness. 21.5% DA is for 1/5 Saber Dance merits.

[Alhanelem]

Saber Dance overwrites /WAR's Double Attack trait for some reason.

I did not know that. o.O

Do you also lose the effectiveness of Brutal Earring or anything else with +DA?

[Byrth]

Nope, for some reason it just replaces trait DA. I think I linked my testing on all the wikis.

[Alhanelem]

Would love to see a PUP solo iron giants in abyssea.

Would just like to say I took this challenege. Ironclad Executioner, First attempt, no real evasion kit by the way, died at 2% to an untimely incinerator. =\ I just picked one and stared attacking it by the way- no real preperation.

PUP can certainly do it, if you handle yourself smarter than I did for that one fight.

[Malamasala]

The stupidity in this thread is just so amazing.

We actually have plenty of SMNs in here that says no to Cure V. Meanwhile SCH and RDM scream for it, but hey, we SMNs know how to play support jobs. And PUP needed the update because their automaton didn't cast cures. Light Spirit not casting cures is just "working as intended", because which healer in this game should heal?

I accept people having opinions about how dark spirit or ice spirit updates wouldn't do much. Because 600 damage every 20 seconds or 1200 every 45 isn't a world of a difference. And that is assuming SE did the correct spell timer adjustments, there is plenty of room to fail there. This all I can understand.

But dissing Light Spirit adjustments? Really? And you are subbing mage jobs to heal people?

I do not think I'm able to comprehend such ways of thinking. Choosing bad over good because you like bad better?