FINAL FANTASY XI Job Adjustments Manifesto: Paladin

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Originally Posted by Aeonk

What this fellow said.

DD tanks are nowhere near optimal outside abyssea. Especially if they aren't packing empyreans. Asuran Fists is nothing special, and you're not tanking Hahava with it. Or even Kholomodumo.

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...you do know that plenty of people do Voidwatch with a SAM or MNK tank?
PLD isn't required, nor is it that much better, if at all.

I don't see why SE is so worried about making PLD better, half of the jobs in this game are already considered broken when compared to others.
PLD could really use some new tricks, and hopefully some enmity tools that aren't on cooldown forever.

And again, SE needs to stop thinking THF is an enmity master.
Just as well, nobody is going to use Enmity songs/spells/etc just to make PLD "work". Why would they if they could have a MNK [or whatever] tank, do damage, and be able to use songs/spells that don't suck?

Overall I want to see PLD be the most useful tank, but not a requirement.
Though sadly you want as many jobs as possible for Voidwatch's silly proc system anyway, so chances are if you play PLD you might tank anyway.

If you want to DD with PLD then you really need an Almace or at the very least a WoE version.

Atonement used to be great but nowadays it just doesn't cut it for three reasons.

1. DD's do far more damage on higher tier content than they once did whilst Atonements damage cap remains unchanged

2. The vast majority of newer NM's at least half resist Atonement damage whereas before virtually nothing did and some stuff even took increased damage from it

3. Most of the newer higher tier NM's have some form of hate reset

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Originally Posted by Aramaic

Okay I usually just sit back and read these forums and try to not have my head explode from the poor understanding of the job by the box burned people and or smn burned PLD's that seem to camp this forum. To those PLD's that actually xp'ed the job and by xp'ed the job I mean leveled it without the aforementioned horribleness as well as syninc it to 75 back in the day.

First off its not SE's fault that you don't have a cure kit build or enmity build for all of your actions towards mobs. Instead of being angry because everyone doing an empy weapon caps hate faster than you. Please get off your ass and use the time you spend here bitching to get an Alamce. Not a WoE ODD doesn't exist weapon an actual Almace where ODD Crits reach 500-600 dmg per swing.

Have all abbysites don't care how long you think it will take you just get them all. Get all atma's needed for getting Savior. By getting these you will have all important Atma's need for the next step. Use appropriate Atma's for CDC build. Either RR,GH, Apoc or RR, Savior, Apoc hell even Omni, RR, Apoc-- I think you get the idea.

Once that is done use actual dex + str + atk gear swaps--- for the love of all things sacred stop ws in the same gear you tank in and than bitch it sucks. In fact stop never changing gear period. If your not blinking enough to give your whm a seizure your not playing the job right. I do have sets for when I don't want my shit pushed in by a HNM and I also have my capped haste tp set both are appropriate use when needed.

Lastly, stop asking for more ways to get enmity. It won't help unless PLD is allowed to surpass the hardcap aka. like with Burtgang passing - PDT cap or Aegis with -MDT cap. I could have 40 job abilities to give me enmity but with the gear PLD has already there is no need for more JA's for enmity. We have plenty at our ready if people would just learn to build their kits right instead of taking the fast lazy way out of begging SE for shit we don't need.

Sorry if this angers anyone but really I don't care, I am just tired of seeing horrible PLD's making legitimate hard working PLD's look like shit. That is all continue to whine now.

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I can rattle off the gear in every set I have if you want. Rampart enmity set, Rampart absorbtion set, Cover set, PDT with shield, PDT without shield, Cure IV set (cheat set, potency set and an enmity set), Cure III set (cheat set, potency set, and an enmity set), Flash enmity, Flash hybrid, Flash haste, Utsu Ichi, Utsu Ni, Enhancing, Divine, Holy, two-handed TP set, sword/shield TP set, Vorpal Blade/CDC/Torcleaver/Cataclysm/Flash Nova/Atonement sets, MDT with and without a shield, spell interruption down set, fast cast/haste set, Chivalry set, JA enmity sets, elemental resist sets, low accuracy set, shield skill set (lol), idle set, Refresh/Regen set, kiting sets, blah blah blah.

If you can hold the mob off your friends from the get-go, awesome. They either suck at their jobs or are holding back. The issues with the "I can tank fine you guys must suck" argument are that A) it relies on you having Almace to even be passably effective (which is not a legitimate solution. I don't care how easy you perceive it to be, some people can't devote three days straight to getting one), and it implies that either your friends are playing conservatively, or simply suck at their jobs.

There is no reason to play this game conservatively. Paladin serves no purpose because of this, and hasn't for a long, long time. A competent SAM/DRK/WAR/MNK/NIN can tank just about anything in this game (barring perhaps T4 Voidwatch NMs, I haven't tried one on MNK yet), and take as little, or less damage than a Paladin (barring Ochain, which is, again, not a viable solution). Yet Square insists buffing Paladin's offense would be overpowered, while Monks counter 80% of melee attacks directed at them (70% outside Abyssea), and Ninjas or Thieves just evade them entirely. They also apparently refuse to even advance the job in a defensive capacity, which completely baffles me.

Enmity is not the problem. Paladin contributes nothing to 95% of the game.

I remember sky party on statue golems at Ullikummi camp, and decorative weapon camps. Those were the days when people expect PLD to gear up defensively for one sole purpose. Tanking.

I see PLD as a enmity machine with all the defensive abilities. However people now don't desire that because its better to defeat monsters as quickly as possible with damage dealers that can take the role as tank. This way they're achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort.

If the dev team don't want to give PLD an attack boost. Then I think it is best to boost our defensive abilities, curing and overall survivability. I think we have the best armor which proves that we're suppose to be best at surviving crippling physical attacks.

After taking sometime to think this through, I couldn't help it. I leave the rest to the devs. Here is my wishlist. (kind of)

Rampert, its basically a weak version of Stoneskin. I like the fact that its good at grabbing some enmity, but I don't like how the magic shield is so weak.

I like the idea of making Sentinel an area of effect ability.

Make Fealty area of effect.

I think Cure V will be a great tool for PLD. If we can merit it to generate enmity it would be fantastic.

I'm not to sure about this. Lower Divine Emblem, Fealty and Chivalry recast timers.

A magic spell for PLD on par with ninjutsu. The effect: lower an enemy resistance towards light/divine magic.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Like an Almace is *so* hard to get. If it's so hard for you get the NQ WoE version. Trust me a PLD with Ochain and Almace (both of which are easy as hell to get, I see them everywhere on my server) is far stronger than a MNK or NIN in terms of overall survivability and damage output.

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Counter can mitigate almost as much damage as Ochain and also does additional damage in the process. And Verethragna is much, much stronger than Almace.

You can't counter a TP move, but you can block it.

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Originally Posted by Camate

However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present,

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You're assuming players care about enmity to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Aramaic

First off its not SE's fault that you don't have a cure kit build or enmity build for all of your actions towards mobs.

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Ah yes, the eternal answer: MOAR GEAR SWAPS!

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Originally Posted by Aramaic

Instead of being angry because everyone doing an empy weapon caps hate faster than you. Please get off your ass and use the time you spend here bitching to get an Alamce.

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First off, "Go get an empyrean weapon" only really works if nobody else in the group has one.

Secondly, this is a Catch-22: It's kind of hard to go out and get an empyrean when your job is completely useless in the process necessary to get an empyrean.

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Originally Posted by Aramaic

Have all abbysites don't care how long you think it will take you just get them all.

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Same problems as above: only works if nobody else in the group has them, and effectively requires having another 90 job to be useful in getting those abyssites.

(and you'd need serious cajones to suggest just book/key burning another job to 90 after that elitist "old skool" rant you started your post with)

the only hate control issues pld has is that you cant keep hate over the healers in Abyssea (or i couldn't before almace, maybe i can now). but mnk can reach huge countering in abyssea and never get one shotted (plus do enough dmg to recap the hate lost from dmg taken).

outside abyssea (voidwatch) pld is awesome. even without almace and just using Atonement pld's are good. (of course aegis and ochain are awesome to have) not saying other jobs maybe cant tank, but they dont want to tank Ironclad :P

the only problem pld has is that it uses swords and swords (mostly) suck. the club weaponskill True Strike beats all sword ws's except for CDC. but dont act like SAM is good in abyssea or DRG or DRK. so pld's cant really complain.

I rememeber when PLD/NIN made a comeback in terms of usefulness and NIN's complained that PLD was too good and NIN were only for merit parties because PLD could mitigate damage through shield and shadows and hold hate with Atonement. Good old days.

back when nin was a dd!

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

outside abyssea (voidwatch) pld is awesome. even without almace and just using Atonement pld's are good. (of course aegis and ochain are awesome to have) not saying other jobs maybe cant tank, but they dont want to tank Ironclad :P

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I haven't done the Voidwatch fight but from the ones inside abyssea and what I've read about the fight, I would first think of Ochain/Aegis PLD as Tank options, and then NIN or THF for evasion tanking, and then MNK for weaker Evasion/DD/HP tank, and then finally PLD with a non-relic/emp shield.

Now you're probably thinking well you haven't done it so you wouldn't know, and you know what you're right I don't know the fight first hand what I do know is that En-Stun, En-Amnesia, and Encumbrance all gimp PLD's ability to tank which is why without the high block rates of Aegis/Ochain I wouldn't think of a PLD first as my tank choice.

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

but dont act like SAM is good in abyssea or DRG or DRK. so pld's cant really complain.

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I hope you're talking about NM fights for proccing red/yellow/blue because DRG is an amazing DD inside abyssea.


PLD is severely broken when the player base can think of 1 event, and only the upper tiers of that event is where a PLD is needed. On top of that it is preferred to have a Relic/Emp Shield to be the preferred tank in that portion of that 1 event.... SE is really blind to this is all I'm getting from their responses.

I just LOVE how their answer to tanking is "Bring a useless THF". We should totally do it, so that when they realize a THF ain't doing shit for enmity in an alliance, maybe they'll actually fix some of the jobs. (THF, PLD, unbalanced DD classes)

its ok you havent done the fight im not judging anyone on that. but i have done the fights many many times with my LS. i dont believe Ironclad does any en-amnesia or en-stun like the abyssea versions. mostly aga's and just plain brutal hits. but normally i play rdm and try to keep the mob enfeebled, tanks alive, and whm refreshed (so i dont know exactly what tanks go through). i've seen drk's, thfs, and all kinds of jobs flee in terror from VW mobs.

VW mobs have huge acc, large eva, and impressive damage. any DD with capped skill and an empy can do great dmg and most jobs can do well tanking lower tiers, but PLD is just the best tank here. just like nin and mnk are the best tanks in abyssea.

i agree pld is missing a huge detail somewhere as no one WANTS to be a pld. sure it has its uses but if it wasnt for book burns, none of us would have a tank to party (nin is an okay tank, but even their spike in popularity was leaving parties tankless). so my gripe isnt as much with the fail we got in abyssea, just with the lack of desire to play pld without the fun Almace or to show off aegis/ochain.

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

its ok you havent done the fight im not judging anyone on that. but i have done the fights many many times with my LS. i dont believe Ironclad does any en-amnesia or en-stun like the abyssea versions. mostly aga's and just plain brutal hits. but normally i play rdm and try to keep the mob enfeebled, tanks alive, and whm refreshed (so i dont know exactly what tanks go through). i've seen drk's, thfs, and all kinds of jobs flee in terror from VW mobs.

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I see so basically it sounds like if you don't have a shield with ridiculous block rate and absorption rate (hi aegis/ochain) you're not that much better off than any other job...

Is your PLD a non-Aegis/Ochain PLD? If so do they /NIN or /WAR?

I'm trying to find out how accurate my guesstimated order of tank preference would be. I would take the questions to PMs as they aren't really on topic necessarily but I can't :(

I can accept but I don't understand this approach of not willing to raise the current enmity cap. I assume FFXI developers have their good reasons. But even so, there are other ways to fix the enmity issues.

The current enmity system in the game (the amount of enmity generated by specific JAs like Provoke and all other abilities) is balanced for level 75. Back at level 75 the average damage of a WS or of normal hits was much lower than it is today at level 90.
This is especially true in Abyssea because of Atmas and other buffs, but it's partially true even outside of Abyssea.
This destroyed balancement seriously reduced the efficiency of abilities, spells and other things which were (almost) perfectly balanced for the average damage numbers performed at level 75.

If FFXI developers say they don't want to raise the enmity cap, then they should definitely rework the current Damage>Enmity conversion. I'm sure there is such a value somewhere in the FFXI formulae. Slightly adjusting this value would be much quicker and efficient that fine-tuning every single ability/ws/spell in the game, or creating new job traits/abilities to generate more/less enmity.

Maybe I'm blind or I'm just oversimplifying things, but a slight adjustment of the Damage>Enmity conversion sounds like the smoother and most efficient solution to re-balance the enmity values of fights.

Also, and this is an even more personal comment, I find it a bit sad that in all SE official statements they always consider PLD as the only "real" tank in the game. Not saying this is not true, but it makes me think about the old times.
Back in the very very old days we had NIN as the best tank, then PLD was a laughable second choice, but you also had WAR as an excellent offtank, and in some instances MNK. Talking about easier content. NIN was the one used mostly at the time and everybody was laughing at PLD.
That situation was corrected, first they progressively nerfed Utsusemi for NIN, they they added NMs that made Utsusemi less effective and at the same time they buffed PLD. New Sentinel, Shield Mastery, new gear, etc etc. PLD/NIN slowly became the only tank that you could possibly use for end-game events, with NIN as a laughable second option which was still used by some stubborn people/ls, with interesting results which usually required much more effort and worse results. Usually as /RDM or /DRK.
Let's forget for a second about when RDM was the best tank, things got patched quickly anyway.

A lot of this tendencies may have been the fault of the players' limited and oneway mentality, very little people can think out of the box and mostly everybody follows what the "good players" do. Still, we can't deny the changes SE made, or avoided to make, are to blame as well.

What I'm saying is that while I apreciate PLD being an excellent tank, I'd love SE to *seriously* think about giving players other *efficient* tanking options. Be it with new specific gear, abilities, job abilities or whatever. Most other MMO games offer a good selection of tanks, healers, supporters, ranged DPS and melee DPS. It seems to me FFXI has been very "unbalanced" on these regards for way too long. It's time SE really does something *big* to offer new real and useable alternative to tanking, or at least make changes that will consequentially open up the players' mentality.
Am I asking too much for SE to at least acknowledge this request, instead of continuing in their path of thinking of PLD as the only "real" tank for serious situations?

(not talking about Abyssea of course, tanking there is a whole different situation)

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

Let's forget for a second about when RDM was the best tank, things got patched quickly anyway.

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If by very quickly you mean about 8 years then sure >.>

I meant more something like "quickly after more than a bunch of very competent knew about it and it started to spread around a lot even among more average linkshell".
Because before those months when RDM tanking kinda went on a boom, I think only a few people knew about it or rather had the gear, skills and trust to efficiently make use of it?

Maybe I just got the wrong impression, but while I always heard about it, I never really saw a lot of video/people taking full advantage of it (not talking about Avesta or other RDM's soloing things).
Then there has been a certain "boom" of usage on boards like BG and others and more and more and more people started using it. I had some very competent ls mates who started using it, and I saw with my own eyes how powerful it was.
A few months after this boom things got patched.
Did I just get a wrong impression and RDM has awalys been widely used as an HNM tank by HNM ls? Could be.
But it sounds more logical to me that SE eventually decides to "patch it" the moment when its usage has started to spread too much, while they didn't do anything before because they either didn't know or they thought they could tolerate a moderate usage by only a handful of players in the world.

Pardon me if I got a wrong impression or made a very wrong descriptions of the facts that happened back then.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

I meant more something like "quickly after more than a bunch of very competent knew about it and it started to spread around a lot even among more average linkshell".
Because before those months when RDM tanking kinda went on a boom, I think only a few people knew about it or rather had the gear, skills and trust to efficiently make use of it?

Maybe I just got the wrong impression, but while I always heard about it, I never really saw a lot of video/people taking full advantage of it (not talking about Avesta or other RDM's soloing things).
Then there has been a certain "boom" of usage on boards like BG and others and more and more and more people started using it. I had some very competent ls mates who started using it, and I saw with my own eyes how powerful it was.
A few months after this boom things got patched.
Did I just get a wrong impression and RDM has awalys been widely used as an HNM tank by HNM ls? Could be.
But it sounds more logical to me that SE eventually decides to "patch it" the moment when its usage has started to spread too much, while they didn't do anything before because they either didn't know or they thought they could tolerate a moderate usage by only a handful of players in the world.

Pardon me if I got a wrong impression or made a very wrong descriptions of the facts that happened back then.

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As far as I know RDM tanking never made a "boom" of any kind even after the AV video from SE with them using a RDM tank. The biggest reason I've found is while RDM was the best tank it had much less room for error, it used support that was fairly similar to PLD and NIN tank options, and the gear well it required -PDT/MDT, after that other gear made it easier, Fast Cast set, Auto-Refresh set, etc. just made it easier to do the job.

Honestly I have no clue why SE chose to wait until they did to nerf RDM tanking, I mean by the time it was nerfed it was a dead art.

RDM, NIN, WAR... they've all had their uses as tanks here and there, but they all also had other options (back-line, puller, DD, etc.)

PLD, it's tank or nothing. Nobody has ever told a PLD "Oh, we already have a tank, but can you ______ for us?" Ever.

Where to start, where to start... Let's go with this: Voidwatch.

Voidwatch's Tier IV NMs are NOT friendly for non-Plds to tank. Voidwrought: All attacks are AoE TP moves, the regular hits have enstun, enamnesia, or knockback depending on the motion, just like abyssea. Celaeno: Regular attacks are AoE TP moves, some of them even radial depending on the attack motion. Basically ALL of her TP moves are AoE / bypass shadows, and basically always casts -ga or -ja, very rarely casting a single-target spell. Hahava: Again, regular attacks are AoE TP moves. Alternates between Yaksha (physical stance) & Raksha (magical stance) for the nature of its TP moves and reduction of damage by 50%. Uses Raksha Vengence (moderate~heavy magic dmg AoE + weakness) & Yaksha Oblivion (Heavy Physical damage AoE, inflicts all stats-110) < 50% HP for its killer moves. Here's the thing: Vengence isn't *that* hard to stun, and Oblivion's blockable.

Now as a paladin, I am NO gauge of their accuracy, see: "Paladins don't evade, the mob whiffs", but when regular attacks cannot be countered, and take multiple shadows, I can't see Nin or Mnk tanking being all that viable. If their accuracy is low enough for a skilled evasion tank to handle them...I would be disappointed, given the rest of their difficulty, so I'm going to assume it's high enough to rule out evasion tanking.

I'll also reference Belphoebe, the T3 Pixie in Jugner, which uses her TP moves in a very specific order: Spring > Summer > Autumn > Winter Breezes > Cyclonic Turmoil > Norn Arrows. Norn Arrows is RAPE to a non-Ochain PLD. We're talking HEAVY physical damage to anyone within twenty yalms + Encumberance if you live. It's blockable, hence Ochain's defense against it, reducing the damage and prevents said encumberance from taking effect.

Now I know people are crying "But that's only one event, and there's not even much in the way of worthwhile gear that comes from it" blah, blah, blah. Voidwatch represents what Paladin NEEDS to be useful again: Challenging mobs that DDs are incapable of tanking. Did it occur to any of you that some of what SE has said about Pld is that they plan to improve our defensive capabilities? I'm not happy about their refusal to buff our offensive either, but the fact is that I see them enhancing our survivability to handle new challenges coming down the line. Challenges that your abyssea-spoiled "tanks" will get slaughtered. I'm honestly pleased to say that voidwatch is challenging to me, despite being one of the rare Almace/Ochain Paladins who DOESN'T let his Empys tank for him. I swear, it makes me shudder at how many Ochains I see fall into the hands of people who don't even swap gear, let alone know how to use proper MDT/PDT sets, because you NEED them in Voidwatch. Fighting the T4s, I can say that Ochain's auto-pilot is NOT enough.

The point I'm making is this: Right now, Voidwatch is the only *hard* event. There will be more Voidwatch, and there will be more *hard* content events down the line (I hope). I just don't think SE wants to release the rest of them right now, on the grounds that we're not 99 yet, and if they release it prior to 99, that means it'll be easier at 99, or scaled to be impossible prior to it. I'd rather see them release more content (beyond Voidwatch) AFTER the 99 cap, so they can gauge how powerful it needs to be in order to present a worthy challenge.

You cannot ask to compete with Mnk & Nin in abyssea, there's NO point to doing it. You cannot ask to compete with Empy DDs without an Empy yourself. Am I saying you NEED an empyrean to do your job? No. But if the DDs have them, why don't you? Almace is NOT hard to get, especially the 85 form. It makes me sick to see an Ochain without one, when Almace takes NONE of the time to obtain in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I remember sky party on statue golems at Ullikummi camp, and decorative weapon camps. Those were the days when people expect PLD to gear up defensively for one sole purpose. Tanking.

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That's what we call "The Dark Ages" when nobody knew any better. I was already having my doubts about the turtle garbarge at this point when I saw my Drg/War taking hate off a Pld/War in full crapdaman, loaded up on Enm+ & an earth staff with just my regular hits on golems in Ulli camp. Paladin tanking in full AF1...the reason nobody realized just how bad it was at the time, was because the DDs sucked pretty hard back then as well, and provoke + flash + cures were enough to make up for your worthless gear choices in regards to holding hate.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We are aware that paladins are having a difficult time when damage dealers push the limits of their abilities in battle and we plan on making adjustments so that it’s easier for paladins to grab the focus of a target. However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present, it will be necessary to take into account the proper enmity balance between every role in party situations.

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THANK YOU! To all of you people who keep BEGGING for an exclusive higher hate cap, or the ability to lock hate on yourselves, read this message as a colossal middle finger from the dev team. I support the notion of skill remaining an IMPORTANT factor of battle.

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Originally Posted by Washburn

What about some "Enhances Provoke" or "Enhances emnity" gear to be used when using provoke or flash.

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It's called "Enmity+" gear for provoke and "Fast Cast + Haste + Enmity+" gear for flash. I provoke in Enmity+54 in gear and cast flash in Haste+21%, Fast Cast+9%, and Enmity+38 in gear.

On that note: Provoke is NOT a deal-breaker. It helps a little, but it's nothing crucial. If you think you need provoke to hold hate, you're doing it wrong. If you think provoke would help you hold hate better...only when the mob goes running after the mages until you can catch up, WS on it, get it back over to where it's supposed to be. If you think you can tank most NMs /war without Ochain...get off Paladin. The majority of this game, people have tanked on Pld/NIN. Combination of Shadows + Shield blocks to help control overall damage mitigation.

Overall, it boils down to this: Paladin is only as good as the person playing it. SE isn't going to take balance out, and let non-empy Plds tank over empy-DDs, or non-Ochain Plds survive super tanking the world /war. Know your limits, and always strive to do better. "But Nin and Mnk take less damage than we do..." It sounds like SE intends to fix this by raising our defensive abilities, together with more challenging content that WILL make their tanking methods less effective.

That's my two gil on the matter, /rant off.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

I see so basically it sounds like if you don't have a shield with ridiculous block rate and absorption rate (hi aegis/ochain) you're not that much better off than any other job...

Is your PLD a non-Aegis/Ochain PLD? If so do they /NIN or /WAR?

I'm trying to find out how accurate my guesstimated order of tank preference would be. I would take the questions to PMs as they aren't really on topic necessarily but I can't :(

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one of our paladins does have ochain but its not required. simply the pld job is great for VW. one of our members leveled PLD in abyssea from 30-90, went and skilled up a bit, then tanked Hahava. Not saying any random pld can perfectly tank these nms, they require skill and teamwork. but pld seems to be the tank of choice, if not the only usable one. personally i've never seen any other job tank these monsters (we even use weakened pld's over the other DD's there). I took over a few times as Dnc and we've had a Nin tank the Briareus mob (Teir1) but this is more of a last ditch effort and usually involves temp items like Fanatics drink.

but as was just said, pld is only pld and if you aren't needed then you better have another job leveled.

oh ya pld is also awesome for the new BC's. Kindred Crest 50 i think, with the dragons similar to Ying and Yang from dynamis - xarcabard. we had a pld tank the one that spams horrible moves and a nin tank the easy one. nin with full AF3+2 and a proper eva set are pretty awesome blink tanks. but a simple aga will whipe all your shadows (and mobs that have normal atks that are aoe like shinryu, are not well tanked by nin.). this BC can prove to be difficult, but with our setup it was very easy (the pld healed himself i only gave him refresh and haste, which were whipped off constantly).

and i mentioned another pld-tank event; Shinryu. it probably hasnt taken anyone 1 try to get the twilight body, so i call this an event. (though mnk isnt a bad blood-tank in abyssea, as long as you do enough dmg to keep the whm's alive).

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Originally Posted by Ryx

Voidwatch represents what Paladin NEEDS to be useful again: Challenging mobs that DDs are incapable of tanking.

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Even if, that gets us from 0/18 PLD to 1/18 PLD, and that's a big "maybe."

"Sorry, we already have a tank. Got any other jobs?"

Yes, I'm not the game's best PLD, and yes, the best gear I run around with is a joytoy and some mission loot, but... personally, PLD hasn't struck me as particularly useful in group settings since around level 70. Maybe you'll need 1 (one) in runs involving 18-64 players, and that one PLD will be the one with Excalibur in one hand and an Aegis in the other. Not "one per party" or even "one per alliance," one.

Really, the Abyssea problems PLD has I see as little more than an extension of the melee-burn merit point party, just writ large. Who needs a tank when a "first voke" is more than enough, especially when the voker can actually, y'know, cause damage?

Anyway, I'm tempted to say that PLD won't be "fixed" until one or the other of the following becomes true:

1. People are willing to accept a PLD as anything other than tank. DD, healer, I don't care, but some other role for which a group might want more than one of.
2. PLD is actually a useful subjob. If the defensive cabailities are so useful and important (and unique to PLD), then it should theoretically be useful as a sub as well.

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Originally Posted by Aramaic

Okay I usually just sit back and read these forums and try to not have my head explode from the poor understanding of the job by the box burned people and or smn burned PLD's that seem to camp this forum. To those PLD's that actually xp'ed the job and by xp'ed the job I mean leveled it without the aforementioned horribleness as well as syninc it to 75 back in the day.

First off its not SE's fault that you don't have a cure kit build or enmity build for all of your actions towards mobs. Instead of being angry because everyone doing an empy weapon caps hate faster than you. Please get off your ass and use the time you spend here bitching to get an Alamce. Not a WoE ODD doesn't exist weapon an actual Almace where ODD Crits reach 500-600 dmg per swing.

Have all abbysites don't care how long you think it will take you just get them all. Get all atma's needed for getting Savior. By getting these you will have all important Atma's need for the next step. Use appropriate Atma's for CDC build. Either RR,GH, Apoc or RR, Savior, Apoc hell even Omni, RR, Apoc-- I think you get the idea.

Once that is done use actual dex + str + atk gear swaps--- for the love of all things sacred stop ws in the same gear you tank in and than bitch it sucks. In fact stop never changing gear period. If your not blinking enough to give your whm a seizure your not playing the job right. I do have sets for when I don't want my shit pushed in by a HNM and I also have my capped haste tp set both are appropriate use when needed.

Lastly, stop asking for more ways to get enmity. It won't help unless PLD is allowed to surpass the hardcap aka. like with Burtgang passing - PDT cap or Aegis with -MDT cap. I could have 40 job abilities to give me enmity but with the gear PLD has already there is no need for more JA's for enmity. We have plenty at our ready if people would just learn to build their kits right instead of taking the fast lazy way out of begging SE for shit we don't need.

Sorry if this angers anyone but really I don't care, I am just tired of seeing horrible PLD's making legitimate hard working PLD's look like shit. That is all continue to whine now.

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Like Button "Check"

Seriously, I don't even have an almace but I can still push at least 2k Vorpal Blades in Abyssea with the right atmas, food and gear with spikes at 2.8-3k.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

So, instead of improving Paladins, we should instead do less damage? That solves all of the problems.

And don't try to condescend to me about the "old days". I spent years in a tree trying to get a dragon. I was in the first NA group that ever killed Tiamat. I was in the first group that ever fought Jailer of Love who found out that it invincible. I know all about the old days.

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if you're talking about BG, isn't it technically a JPNA shell, since Ed was JP?

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Seriously, I don't even have an almace but I can still push at least 2k Vorpal Blades in Abyssea with the right atmas, food and gear with spikes at 2.8-3k.

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On anything a PLD can do 2k Vorpals as an average a MNK is doing 2k A. Fury, WAR is doing 3k+ Raging Rushes, DRG is doing 2k+ Skewer (3k+ with Drakesbane), NIN is doing 2k Jins, THF/DNC are doing 2k+ Evisceration, COR are doing 2k Leaden Salute, PUP Stringing Pummel for 2-3k, etc.

Before you come preaching about how 2k is impressive inside abyssea take a reality check and play with some better players and you'll see that a PLD's 2k Vorpals are good for laughs at best when compared to other DD's WS options before Emp weapons are even mentioned (well for some jobs sorry DRG your ws sucks I hear). Not only do other jobs out do our Vorpals but they TP faster, deal more DoT, and survive just as well if not better than a PLD can. There is no place inside abyssea for PLD it just can't do enough damage to keep up with every other job that can deal damage thus making it a sub par tank.

If content continues like Voidwatch then PLD will have a niche for most players. That said if that happens every player who thinks 2k Vorpals will keep PLD tanking will be crying about the game being too hard. If content continues like Abyssea then PLD won't have a niche for any players.

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Originally Posted by Zhronne

If FFXI developers say they don't want to raise the enmity cap, then they should definitely rework the current Damage>Enmity conversion. I'm sure there is such a value somewhere in the FFXI formulae. Slightly adjusting this value would be much quicker and efficient that fine-tuning every single ability/ws/spell in the game, or creating new job traits/abilities to generate more/less enmity.

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They should go back to the old pre 2006 system that only had volatile enmity. Somewhere in mid 06 they ninja patched the enmity system to it's current form. I remember it well because at Kirin that week the kiters could no longer keep hate off the RNGs. We all knew something had changed but we couldn't figure out what. Years later when the enmity system was finally figured out out dawned on me what had happened that week.

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Originally Posted by Ryx

I'll also reference Belphoebe, the T3 Pixie in Jugner, which uses her TP moves in a very specific order: Spring > Summer > Autumn > Winter Breezes > Cyclonic Turmoil > Norn Arrows. Norn Arrows is RAPE to a non-Ochain PLD. We're talking HEAVY physical damage to anyone within twenty yalms + Encumberance if you live. It's blockable, hence Ochain's defense against it, reducing the damage and prevents said encumberance from taking effect.

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My ls ran through some voidwatch for the first time yesterday and we did this NM and something seems to conflict with what you just said. I own an Aegis, and with Shell 5 Norn Arrows was doing about 150~, so to me it looks like magical damage. If you can block with Ochain as well that rapes.


After we finished up with that NM we went ahead and did Hahava. I haven't done the other tier4s yet but I imagine they are somewhat similar. He is a prime example of the mob dictates what tanks you can use. In my mind there is no way any DD tank can do this effectively (atleast @ 90 cap.) Of course, we only attempted with 9 people with 2 of them boxing, I'm sure there are many ways to do this fight if you double your alliance size.

It's really simple when you know you'll need a PLD tank, and that's when a DD tank can't do enough damage to overcome the cures raining down on them. This was the case early on in endgame, where gear options weren't as much, people that were extremely well geared were low, and the playerbase knowledge was low. For example, a SAM couldn't reliably tank Fafnir due to all of the above mentioned, so something like a PLD (or NIN/DRK or RDM/NIN) was used, where they could generate enmity without needing to deal damage ontop of reducing damage better.

So, as long as mobs like that exist, then the need for PLD will be there. In abyssea where HP/curing is infinite, damage spikes are retarded, this obviously isn't the case. PLD still need a bone thrown their way to make sure it stays this way though.

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Originally Posted by Ryx

Norn Arrows is RAPE to a non-Ochain PLD.

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I'm pretty sure than Norn Arrows is elemental because from what I've observed in VW Aegis PLDs take between 100-200 damage from it.

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Originally Posted by Naix

My ls ran through some voidwatch for the first time yesterday and we did this NM and something seems to conflict with what you just said. I own an Aegis, and with Shell 5 Norn Arrows was doing about 150~, so to me it looks like magical damage. If you can block with Ochain as well that rapes.

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I'd imagine that's something more of a fresh cureskin effect. It's easy to test if it's magic damage: You KNOW when she's going to use it, so just save rampart for it. If it takes off the magic defense stoneskin, it's magic. Sentinel/Invincible could also be used to check the physical side of it. I know fanatic's & fool's drinks aren't always the best gauge (Fool's drink won't block Norn), I just know that in blocking the encumberance effect, that implies you're blocking with your shield (and the fact that it doesn't rape me when it annihilates the DDs). Since I'm not used to shield blocks working against magic-based TP moves, that would lean me towards it being a physical attack.

Don't underestimate the cureskin effect from solace, it can save your life...or it can let you take 10 damage from Oblivion on Hahava while under the stats down effect from a previous use. I'm not going to say I'm an expert on Belphoebe, I've only fought her a few times, I'm just saying this sounds like a fairly reasonable scenario in my mind.

Also be warned: If you stun Norn Arrows, she'll use it again as her next TP move. I'm not sure how many times she'll keep trying, but given her special nature, I wouldn't doubt she tries until she gets it off.

I've taken down Hahava with 7, Celaeno with 6, Voidwrought with 8. Doesn't mean it's the best idea, just that it can be done. Low #s = low options for procing !!, and without allignment buffs, your odds of getting drops go from bad to worse.

OK.

Staying on course:
I was thinking about what Camate said. I agree battles will become boring if PLD can grab enmity easy. What I don't agree on is that it shouldn't take BRD songs and THF abilities to make PLD somewhat more effective. In other words it doesn't seem efficient enough when players have to hold back just to make one job effective.

I emphatically reject the talking point that Paladins should need an Almace and Ochain to effectively do the job it was designed to do. That tells me something is gravely wrong and requires adjustments to the job itself. Empyrean weapons should be an extra, not an essential that is not obtainable by all.

If the devs cannot bring themselves to raise the enmity cap specifically for Paladins nor raise our attack potential, there needs to be some changes made to 1) swords'/great swords' damage calculations and 2) the the overall blocking rate and damage mitigation calculations for all shields. Otherwise, the only Paladins who are allowed to enjoy their jobs will be those who are associated with the right cliques and know the right behinds to kiss.

pld's dont need any empy or relics to do well in voidwatch. a pld based on level 75 standards with his AF3+1 or +2 is good. the empy/relic shields just make it WAY easier not to die. i mean you could solo genbu right now, but if you have awesome gear you have less of a chance at dieing. get it?

right now in voidwatch with a empy/relic shield user, if we dont keep the pld at full health he could still be killed. 1-shotted or 2-shotted, these mobs dont play nice.

and ya, vorpal blade sucks. club ws's (true strike) do way more dmg in abyssea and my club is only 280 vs 361 sword +16skill from merits and suppanomimi (+5). and clubs have WAY lower base damage. also for 3k vorpals you have to sacrifice tanking atmas and switch to DD gear.

1.0 50% Str Mod Single hit > 4.0 4 30% Str Mod 4 hits with a ~83 attack difference? Yea I think something's wrong with that but then you said switch to DD gear and drop tanking atmas I knew what you were doing wrong.

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

switch to DD gear.

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If you aren't doing this for each weapon skill already, you really should start doing it as soon as possible.

People who aren't very good at playing support jobs will feel sad and make unpleasant posts on this very forum about how they don't know that <stpt> or <stal> exist, but everyone else will be filled with joy.

Not exactly on topic, I guess, but that felt like something half the people in this topic could do to read one more time.

I don't envy the guy who has to take the helm of improving and balancing Paladin. The whole point of the job is to tank really hard monsters, which it does really well, so just continuing to add really hard monsters as the level cap increases to 99 would go a long way.

It would be nice if it had a place in a party fighting anything that isn't two stories high, made out of fire-hardened sadness, and armed with a two-days dead cat on a stick; so I hope that's accommodated for as well. If not, at least it's a job solid in it's niche, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

...What I don't agree on is that it shouldn't take BRD songs and THF abilities to make PLD somewhat more effective. In other words it doesn't seem efficient enough when players have to hold back just to make one job effective.

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QFT

Quoted for Truth

Play a game to have fun. Not hold back and watch the other guys have fun

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Originally Posted by Hayward

I emphatically reject the talking point that Paladins should need an Almace and Ochain to effectively do the job it was designed to do. That tells me something is gravely wrong and requires adjustments to the job itself. Empyrean weapons should be an extra, not an essential that is not obtainable by all.

If the devs cannot bring themselves to raise the enmity cap specifically for Paladins nor raise our attack potential, there needs to be some changes made to 1) swords'/great swords' damage calculations and 2) the the overall blocking rate and damage mitigation calculations for all shields. Otherwise, the only Paladins who are allowed to enjoy their jobs will be those who are associated with the right cliques and know the right behinds to kiss.

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You don't have to like that it's nearly a requirement to own an Almace or Ochain... But when nearly every DD is striving for an empy or at least WoE weapon, there's no excuse for you not to as well.

And really... Almace is not hard. It didn't require kissing ass to get it, just having 2 or 3 friends really. You put the same amount of work into getting Atonement (assuming you did) as Almace requires.