New SMN JA "Possession" Empowering the "Melee SMN"

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Originally Posted by kingfury

•Possible Avatar Possession characteristics

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The carby one was perfect! I like the Garuda, Shiva and Ramuh ones, too!

Going back to the JA in question. Bad idea. SE won't go within a million miles of it.
I'm a melee SMN to some extent myself, but you missed the plot by a mile. The whole idea of SMN is to use your avatars, not being "Possessed" by them. SE are already addressing the issue where SMN is too much of the "watch paint dry" job (even though it really isn't)

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A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.

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If this is implimented, problem solved. MP is not an issue unless they make the amount of additional MP used something stupid like double BP cost. SE are not going to impliment anything that will a) create an "unbalance" in jobs, b) take massive resources into adjusting one job by a tiny bit, c) put strains on the hardware limitations of the PS2/PSV (remember, we have 10 levels of Job Adjustments, Spells, Avatars, Weapon Skills, Abilities, new Mob TP moves to put on the PS2 HDD). What your whole post is suggesting is that they turn Summoner into Necromancer. While I do want a "Dual Mode" for SMN, SE are already working on something like it.
Instead of suggesting bad ideas like this, you might want to actually unlock the job and play it for yourself so you can really see whats wrong with it and what isn't wrong with it.

How is Infusing yourself with an Avatars power anything remotely close to Summoning Undead? (on your "It'd turn SMN into Necromancer" thing >_>)

Your other arguments seem intelligent though drowned up by obvious arrogance and hatred I can let that go (you should too! no fun being mad all the time). Still I don't think "PS2 limitations" is a good excuse either. We've gone up 15 levels, going up 9 more, adding dozens of new JA and JT, they have plenty of room left for PS2.

The only valid excuse you have is that it wouldn't really help the job as a whole, which i can concur with 100%.

While we agree, It wouldn't help SMN a lot. because its not the way the devs want to take the job. And while i would enjoy something like this as a FUN thing, It would not help SMN i the end and I don't think it would be a positive step for the job. In fact i think it might impact them negatively because one of their redeeming qualities (hateless, disposable DD) would be lost

I like the whole idea. It would give SMN something else in it's arsenal and the possession does not even have to be limited to melee, they could be RA for some of these possessions too. Avatars like Ifrit and Fenrir are obvious for melee, but Carby and Ramuh would be sweet as ranged dmg of some type with a magic missile sort of attack.

I would like to see something LIKE this, maybe not identical to description, put in if only to see my characters appearance change. If anyone has played Guild Wars this reminds me of the Dervish ability to summon Avatar aspects.

The reasoning behind the idea, I can understand. And like I said, SE are working on a solution to said idea. SE's vision of the job is effectively the same as Summoner in previous FF games, which on the most part, the playerbase agrees with. The summoner calls fourth avatars to assist his/herself in battle etc. The summoner at no point (exception: Terra in FF6, but she was born an Esper) becomes the Avatar/Eidolon/Esper themselves. They at no point incorperate any of the stats of any of their summoned pets. And like Summoners in previous FF games, Summoners can melee (any job can melee), but at no point do they become equal or greater melees then the aformentioned melee jobs (in newer FFs, see Garnet's melee vs Zidanes/Steiners, or Yuna's vs Tidus/Auron for example).

I understand the concept, I at no point mentioned summoning undead, mearly only saw the connection between the proposed JA and the Necromancer job in other MMOs. It sounds almost identical. As much as I do, on occasion melee as SMN when the sitation is feasible for me to do so, as a melee SMN, this JA will not help at all. SEs reaction to this is going to be "if you want to nuke, change to BLM, if you want to melee, change to WAR".

I would like to see SMN get access to higher tier attacks and pacts, and become a more active job. At this point, we simply do not know what Blood Pacts are being implimented, besides the assumption that Ramuh is getting a new Blood Pact: Ward at 92. As it is, if Summoner wants to nuke, we can already deal as much damage as a non-magian staff blm can with Heavenly Strike. If a Summoner wants to DD, Predator Claws still does very high numbers, both in and outside of Abyssea. In terms of Summoner actually dealing damage numbers, the job needs no adjustment. The speed in which we do damage is the only issue, which I mentioned SE have picked up on and are looking into adjusting. The summoner themselves are squishy, but since the majority of the time we are away from the mob, if we are soloing, we simply run further and put enough distance between the mob to safely resummon/siphon without getting hit, and if we do get hit, our support job will mitigate the damage. If we are meleeing, we either use a tank, or simply make the avatars our tanks. If this is a solo situation, the summoner should prepare themselves for when their avatar dies and apply the nessesary buffs. The job simply does not need an ability like this, and it is not within the job's nature to have an ability like this.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

(Yes I know it's way back)
I'm offended by your signature. "Real Summoners" play the job however they dang well please. Real Summoners also don't all wear wind staves and only use garuda.

Real Summoners are those who know how to utilize every square inch of what their job can do (even though no matter what they do, they still don't get respected for anything other than niche purposes or anything that is made beatable by Perfect Defense).

Stop kidding yourself into thinking because a couple of people were involved in a 2000 post thread about meleeing on SMN, that they don't know how to do anything else with the job.

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Geeze, you can't take a joke, can you?

As stated in another thread, I didn't specify which staff to include on my signature (like it mattered anyway), but I'm glad that kingfury decided on a green staff to go with the green mage aspect (also, having green armor and a green background with a green avatar, kindof makes sense to use a green staff, don't you think?)

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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I agreed with your breakdown in the "Watch paint dry" thread when you said that weak melee doesn't really do much for the fight LLH, but this JA would elevate a SMN's melee and DoT to that of Moderate to High depending on how things could be coded and designed. If a SMN could use new powerful weapon skills at an increased rate that was either on par with or slightly stronger than their current BP rage numbers, and they could take hits due to them being paired with their Avatars, they would certainly gain their place up front with the other DDs.

They wouldn't just be an "Auto-attacking melee mage" at that point, they would be a true-to-life DD, capable of sustaining themselves and others while doing so to boot. They would do so all the while staying true to their job function as a SMN, just up front with the rest of the DDs.

Remember, they would technically "be the Avatar" so your fears of a "too weak mage" swinging a staff for low numbers wouldn't be directed at a SMN that is using this JA. The specific melee damage numbers would see proportionate increase based on the two entities' attacks being merged, not to mention the possible additional elemental effect damage per swing on top of that. Now if a BLM were up front whacking the monster and trying to nuke, that's where your frustrations would be directed! :) (no offense to the melee BLMs out there... I'm sure there's some somewhere)

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You would still lose the avatar, which personally, I think that 100 (avatar melee hit) + 50 (SMN melee hit) is better than 75 (imbued SMN hit, because we all know that SE isn't going to give avatar damage to the SMN).

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Originally Posted by Sargent

Going back to the JA in question. Bad idea. SE won't go within a million miles of it.
I'm a melee SMN to some extent myself, but you missed the plot by a mile. The whole idea of SMN is to use your avatars, not being "Possessed" by them. SE are already addressing the issue where SMN is too much of the "watch paint dry" job (even though it really isn't)

If this is implimented, problem solved. MP is not an issue unless they make the amount of additional MP used something stupid like double BP cost. SE are not going to impliment anything that will a) create an "unbalance" in jobs, b) take massive resources into adjusting one job by a tiny bit, c) put strains on the hardware limitations of the PS2/PSV (remember, we have 10 levels of Job Adjustments, Spells, Avatars, Weapon Skills, Abilities, new Mob TP moves to put on the PS2 HDD). What your whole post is suggesting is that they turn Summoner into Necromancer. While I do want a "Dual Mode" for SMN, SE are already working on something like it.
Instead of suggesting bad ideas like this, you might want to actually unlock the job and play it for yourself so you can really see whats wrong with it and what isn't wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

How is Infusing yourself with an Avatars power anything remotely close to Summoning Undead? (on your "It'd turn SMN into Necromancer" thing >_>)

Your other arguments seem intelligent though drowned up by obvious arrogance and hatred I can let that go (you should too! no fun being mad all the time). Still I don't think "PS2 limitations" is a good excuse either. We've gone up 15 levels, going up 9 more, adding dozens of new JA and JT, they have plenty of room left for PS2.

The only valid excuse you have is that it wouldn't really help the job as a whole, which i can concur with 100%.

While we agree, It wouldn't help SMN a lot. because its not the way the devs want to take the job. And while i would enjoy something like this as a FUN thing, It would not help SMN i the end and I don't think it would be a positive step for the job. In fact i think it might impact them negatively because one of their redeeming qualities (hateless, disposable DD) would be lost

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To clear things up a bit in regards to the proposed JA, SMNs would still be "using their Avatars" while this JA is active. The players would still see the Avatars on top of their character and would still control the Avatars new Joint actions and spells. They would indeed be sacrificing their traditional safety of the spectator seat they're usually in to enjoy this new play style, but that's a fair trade off given the possible newfound potential to deal out nice damage numbers firsthand. It would be a trade off similar to using Berserk on WAR to deal higher melee damage, yet different due to the fact depending on which Avatar is possessed at the time(like Leviathan, or Carbuncle), the SMN could do both DD and self sustain themselves while using this JA.

However, they still would have the ability to use powerful spells from outside the direct battle range while this JA was in effect, just more control over new "Joint spells" birthed from the union of the two entities. SMN is in essence by design a hybrid job, so a player doesn't have to "change to BLM to nuke" or "change to War if you want to melee" since their Avatars encompass many sides of those play styles and more(support, healing, tanking, etc.). Though this JA's intensions may sound foreign for the job at 1st glance, it is at it's base a SMN summoning an Avatar to help them battle foes. The only difference is the location of which they summon the Avatar to do the fighting.

I've lvled SMN on my dual boxed Taru and understand the job just fine, though my biggest reason for leaving the job in the Mog house is that pet jobs are rather boring for me personally. Apparently, it's rather boring for a good number of folks as well based on some of the threads posted here. Which brings us to what this proposed JA is really all about. It's not "just about SMNs melee", though it would indeed empower them to do so, but rather it's about breathing some very new and exciting gameplay into the job that still is based on the core elements of the job to a degree.

I wouldn't say this JA had the potential to "hurt" the SMN job unless it wasn't designed and implemented properly. I do believe it would be fair to implement some risk for the SMN that chooses to use this JA, similar with what all frontline jobs have, but given the potential to master the new gameplay options that would be created from it, it could truly benefit the job by expanding it's potential beyond what is the status quo. The issue of dispersing of accumulated hate while using this JA could be solved by allowing the SMN to greatly reduced hate once the possessed Avatar is released. Allowing them the chance to retreat to the back lines of the battle and gather themselves while reverting back to "summon Avatar --» sit back and manage" mode should they need to. It all comes down to creative solutions that still balance out the effects.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Geeze, you can't take a joke, can you?

As stated in another thread, I didn't specify which staff to include on my signature (like it mattered anyway), but I'm glad that kingfury decided on a green staff to go with the green mage aspect (also, having green armor and a green background with a green avatar, kindof makes sense to use a green staff, don't you think?)

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I'd accept that explanation if not for the additional text below. "Real" players in general should do whatever they find works for them and who they're playing with. By calling yourself "Real" you're implying other people are not (I can think of *one* that isn't, but still :p)

Anyway..... I sort of like the concept behind the idea in this thread. If nothing else, its a creative/different idea that I haven't seen come up before. I think some credit is due for that, regardless of what you think of it. It would certainly be an interesting twist though.

@king fury you could go SMN/DRK and absorb all stats now I think. With some DRK magic gear you could probably absorb at least +15 on most stats?

And No...avatars and summoner are meant to be separate beings not to mention possession has negative connotations to it.

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Originally Posted by kingfury

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And I don't want you to get the wrong Idea.

I truly love this idea, Its just i try to remind myself It probably wont be added so its a little less depressing when it doesn't D:

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

And I don't want you to get the wrong Idea.

I truly love this idea, Its just i try to remind myself It probably wont be added so its a little less depressing when it doesn't D:

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^^ I know you do Karb, and it's cool to play devils advocate towards proposed concepts. It helps when folks shoot holes in new ideas, so new solutions can be offered.

Truly, this JA alone with all of it's possible effects and new WSs would be enough work to constitute an Expansion pack all by itself lol. I'm aware that currently, the possible response would be somewhere in the "Although this idea is interesting, we have no current plans to develop SMN in this direction", but it doesn't hurt to offer up the idea should they actually like the concept :) You just never know.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

@king fury you could go SMN/DRK and absorb all stats now I think. With some DRK magic gear you could probably absorb at least +15 on most stats?

And No...avatars and summoner are meant to be separate beings not to mention possession has negative connotations to it.

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Yeah the /sub job realm would offer some insane combos via this JA lol. I think SMN/SAM would see some real use should the new Joint WS's be potent enough to constitute it. Sekkokani would be all kinds of crazy with stuff like Eclipse Strike -» Eclipse Strike = Darkness skillchain(Boosh!!). Not to mention, if the SMN has enough fast cast gear at their disposal, they could possibly fire off their own Magic burst to boot!

The Avatar and the SMN would still be separate beings/entities ^^ they would just be joined together in a unique way. True, the concept of "being possessed" traditionally has negative concepts surrounding it, but that doesn't mean it's outlook can't be changed with some care taken to it's usage. Technically speaking, conjuring spirits to do anything for the living, traditionally (depending on which culture we're talking about) has all kinds of negative connotations around it :)

We have WHMs raising the dead all over the place, DRKs that eat the souls of their foes, and spirit sharing going on with DRG and their wyverns lol! I don't think SE would have any problems with the concept of possession personally ^^

I had a similar idea way back rather then "posession" it was avatar armor. Basically the restriction was you could only set 1 avatar to act as an armor and it would be activated with an ability. Basically each avatar could act under a certain motif. Titan's armor would be a tank like ability, and Ifrit would be a DD main focus. Though of course just saying that the idea itself is very broken since it would give the SMN the ability to play any role even if the side effect would be the inability to summon while in said form.

Though if I had one suggestion about Possession, it would be to "needing to set an avatar for posession(limiting it to one avatar)", "perp cost while in said form" perhaps if possible "have WS require both TP and MP to use". There was another idea but it slipped my mind.

The idea itself could work though it would require a lot of resources to make each avatar work in a certain way unless they only allow the base avatars + fenrir to be used and ignore caith sith, diabolos, atomos and the 2hr ones lol. At least then it would be a balance of one avatar for each element.

Though I will say the base idea is interesting, basically have each one set in place.

Hm, looking at this idea it does sort of remind me of an idea I had about making elementals more useful in the same context of posessing a target. Basically a Summoner could summon the elemental to a target player.

While the target is possessed they are given a base stat/attribute change and the SMN is given a list of "spell rituats" they can use on the player. Based on the elemental they could do rituatls that enhance attributes, resist against an elementa, grant access to certain spells etc. However with each ritual cast it would increase the perp cost of keeping the ritual itself active. In terms of keeping a check on it they could use the same process as level sync in which if it detects the target that is possessed is no long in the party it will disengage the effect in 10 seconds.

While this idea does sound interesting I don't think that avatars really have an issue of being useful it would prolly be more logical to tweak it in a way in which elemental pacts can be used as a means of a supportive tool to enhance player's abilities.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

You would still lose the avatar, which personally, I think that 100 (avatar melee hit) + 50 (SMN melee hit) is better than 75 (imbued SMN hit, because we all know that SE isn't going to give avatar damage to the SMN).

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Nah, you wouldn't "lose" the Avatar since it's still there fighting along with the SMN. Lets say that the merge did combine melee attacks to equate to 75-80 melee damage(with some moderate crits) plus a nice additional elemental damage effect tacked onto it (which would most likely push it above the 100 Avatar-only damage) and use the examples of the SMN getting some nice stat bonuses like suggested by Karb's post.

Possible Enhancements from using Possession with Ifrit:
• Ifrit - Double attack +10%
• Ifrit - Attack +10%
• You gain a strong Enspell Effect related to Avatars Element (In this case Fire Dmg)
• You Gain a stat boost related to the Avatars Element: (Ifrit=STR+30)
• Combat skills are enhanced (Summoning Magic Skill/25 = Amount of Critical Hit rate gained. (i.E A SMN with 350 Summoning Magic skill would gain 14% Critical hit rate)
• Defenses are enhanced
• And access to a possibly potent new staff WS: Flaming Smash - Deliver an attack that deals Triple damage and burns target. Duration of burn varies with TP.
*Burn is 30hp/tic. 30/60/90 second duration 100/200/300%

Now depending on if the SMN has some nice Haste/Perp.Cost/Refresh gear(or Atmas) going on, this type of list would make a deadly contender out of just about any job lol. That's not factoring in the /sub job abilities either, since /SAM would open up self skillchains with the staff Joint WS "Flaming Smash" which would boost dmg in a very nice way. Like I said, they would definitely be allowed to enter the front lines of the fight if they could bring these types of enhancements to the table. :)

i think he's also forgetting the strong Enspell Effect you would gain! An additional ~50 dmg a hit!

Oh man the RDMs would complain.

Nah, RDMs don't consider en-spell damage to be damage. It would be worse if we suggested DA.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

A) Avatars are all BLMs.

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Who says they're blms?

instead of a lol ja that buff the smn mele capacity why not add ja that buff the summon?
I think a "empathy" like JA that would copy the buff active on the SMN to the pet, a ja that lower stats from SMN but add em to the pet...

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Originally Posted by hiko

instead of a lol ja that buff the smn mele capacity why not add ja that buff the summon?
I think a "empathy" like JA that would copy the buff active on the SMN to the pet, a ja that lower stats from SMN but add em to the pet...

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Well, technically, this "lol JA" would accomplish exactly what you're suggesting. Since both Avatar and SMN would be joined during this JA, any and all buffs would directly benefit both entities simultaneously, so no new JA would be needed to share those benefits at that point.

That, and I'll say again, this JA is also a proposal to enhance a SMN gameplay and enjoyment while performing it's role in both party and solo situations, not just to solely enhance melee performance. It would open a new play style option for SMNs that help solve the mundaneness that plagues the job even at high levels by alternating the SMNs from the back of the fight to the front while still allowing them to perform their jobs.

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Originally Posted by hiko

instead of a lol ja that buff the smn mele capacity why not add ja that buff the summon?
I think a "empathy" like JA that would copy the buff active on the SMN to the pet, a ja that lower stats from SMN but add em to the pet...

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This would make about 6.42x10^99 times more sense than all this nonsense about possession and trying to make SMN a melee.

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And No...avatars and summoner are meant to be separate beings not to mention possession has negative connotations to it.

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Negative connotations? Summoning magic is already a forbidden art in the game lore. Posession doesn't have to be negative, either.

Frankly I think people just see the phrase "Melee SMN" and ignore the entire OP's post. His idea is one of the more creative and thoughful ones I've seen on this forum and he deserves some credit for that. It probably wouldn't happen, no, but new ideas should be enocuraged.

What I honestly think about this idea:

Bad to get rid of the avatars completely. Now if it did something else, like reduce the cooldown of BP to x2, to compensate for how powerful the SMN has become...

Still don't like SMN melee but if the public wants it that badly, it's SE's choice to weigh the options.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

What I honestly think about this idea:

Bad to get rid of the avatars completely. Now if it did something else, like reduce the cooldown of BP to x2, to compensate for how powerful the SMN has become...

Still don't like SMN melee but if the public wants it that badly, it's SE's choice to weigh the options.

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The Avatar would still be on your screen visibly overlaid on top of the SMN ^^, they would just look similar to how players look while under the effect of invisible.

It could work that way in terms of the BP cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Negative connotations? Summoning magic is already a forbidden art in the game lore. Posession doesn't have to be negative, either.

Frankly I think people just see the phrase "Melee SMN" and ignore the entire OP's post. His idea is one of the more creative and thoughful ones I've seen on this forum and he deserves some credit for that. It probably wouldn't happen, no, but new ideas should be enocuraged.

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/bow Thanks for the compliments Alhanelem /

And yeah, the phrase "Melee SMN" seems to strike a nerve lol. Hopefully I'll be able to address any concerns that might arise due to missing the core points of the actual purpose of this thread which is suggesting a new play style and energy into the job itself.

I think there would be too much loss if the Avatar stopped being able to BP at all, but if the timer was affected rather than the avatar completely gone...

The trade off from the BP in this mode would be the SMN gaining the use of the new and powerful "Joint WSs" that would either be on par with BP or slightly stronger in the long run since they would be dependent on TP to use vs waiting on BP timers.

lol they would still be there on screen LLH ><; Check the Fenrir example here. When the SMN swings, the Avatar would swing. When the SMN cast a spell, the Avatar would be shown casting a spell as well. You wouldn't "lose the Avatar" at all during this JA, it's just using them differently.

•Possession example

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I think there would be too much loss if the Avatar stopped being able to BP at all, but if the timer was affected rather than the avatar completely gone...

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Well, Maybe we need to emphasis the boost that this infusion would give a bit further. This way it will dispel some concerns?

Firstly, An idea where you could still access BP:Wards was tossed bout! Also, It wouldn't be too far fetched to think you could add about ~10% Damage across the board. I.E you do 10% more damage with everything for the duration of possession.

Secondly, Consider this.

You infuse yourself with Ramuh, Your staff hits usually do ~100 a swing (low ending on most things..), now they do 110 + 50~ or more enspell damage per hit. And you now have access to a 3-hit Staff-Crit WS.

fTP mods similar to Raging Rush (slightly higher though), Mods INT:60% MND:60% (our best assets)

Also consider there might be Armor sets specifically designed for this type of thing, "Possession garbs". That directly enhance a Summoner under Possession, Up to but not limited too capping haste, large boosts to acc/atk/str/dex, Critical hit rate increases, dbl atk/trpl atk/etc.

In a way the essence of the Avatar is still there powering you. Joint WS's would be powerful, and consider you could get Haste/marches like regular DD your DPS will far outweigh the lost of your Avatars and your WS numbers will outweigh BP:Rages (not always in raw damage, but also because of Frequency!)

This is all theoretical of course. But just some examples of the WS power

•(Ifrit)Flaming Smash - Deliver an attack that deals Triple damage and burns target. Duration of burn varies with TP.
fTP: 3.0
Mods: STR:50 INT:50

•(Carbuncle)Blissful Euphoria - Deals Light Elemental damage and lowers targets Attack, Accuracy, Magic Attack, and Magic Accuracy.
fTP: 3.0
mods: MND:50 INT:50

•(Shiva)Chilling Swings - Delivers a 3 hit attack that paralyzes target. Potency of paralysis varies with TP
fTP: 1.5
mods: INT:50 MND:50

•(Titan)Fortified Blow - Delivers an attack that ignores targets Defense. Amount ignored varies with TP
*fTP: 5.0
mods: VIT:50 MND:50

•(Leviathan)Vengeful Maelstrom - Deals Water elemental damage to enemies within area of effect. Additional Effect: Drown.
*fTP: 4.5
*Mods: MND:80

•(Ramuh)Thunderous Torment - Delivers a 3-hit attack that deals critical damage. Additional Effect: Stun
fTP: 1.5
mods: DEX:60 MND:40

•(Fenrir)Eclipse Strike - Delivers an Attack that deals triple damage. Lowers Enemies Critical hit Evasion
*fTP: 3.0
mods: INT:50 MND:50

•(Garuda)Gale Void - Delivers a 2-hit attack that deals Wind elemental damage and weighs target down.
fTP: 2.5
mods: AGI:50 MND:50

•(Diabolos)Nether Strike - Deals darkness elemental damage that drains a targets Stat. Damage varies with TP
*fTP: 3.0 / 4.5 / 6.0
mods: INT:80

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Originally Posted by kingfury

And yeah, the phrase "Melee SMN" seems to strike a nerve lol.

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BG worked real hard to make everyone hate the phrase. The "idiots-that-BG" wanted SMN to accept the term "cure whores" instead.

I like to think of "melee SMN" as "SMN," and the do-nothing-for-45-seconds crowd as "gimp SMN." "Cure whores" still works for the rest.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

Who says they're blms?

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The people who haven't read Kegsay's research, the only research on avatar melee abilities.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

BG worked real hard to make everyone hate the phrase. The "idiots-that-BG" wanted SMN to accept the term "cure whores" instead.

I like to think of "melee SMN" as "SMN," and the do-nothing-for-45-seconds crowd as "gimp SMN." "Cure whores" still works for the rest.

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I've never even been to BG. Still think you're worth half a penny.

The whole special WS idea is nice, but unless they do 10k plus damage with ODD aftermath, even without Emp staff, then this still won't work for melee SMN. Plus, you will have a lot of angry melees demanding their own special sets of WSs, like Nyzul Isle-type WS.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

BG worked real hard to make everyone hate the phrase. The "idiots-that-BG" wanted SMN to accept the term "cure whores" instead.

I like to think of "melee SMN" as "SMN," and the do-nothing-for-45-seconds crowd as "gimp SMN." "Cure whores" still works for the rest.

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You got that mixed up. It should be "melee SMN" as "gimp DD" and everyone else as "SMN." The so-called "cure whores" are more helpful to the party than a "melee SMN" can ever be. But thanks for making another thread into a "bash Dallas" thread.

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The people who haven't read Kegsay's research, the only research on avatar melee abilities.

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Lets see here. All elemental avatars have Tier 2 and 4 spells. All elemental avatars have elemental merited BPs that do elemental damage. All celestial avatars have light/dark element BPs. The magical BPs are dependent on the avatars Magic Attack and Magic Accuracy. Yup, they must be MNKs then!

Korpg, thank you for again thinking you deserve to be heard by me. You are wrong.

Seriously... if you want to personally run up and thwack the mob, you have TWELVE JOBS to choose from that do that. Without getting laughed at.

Otherwise, I might just make my thread requesting that my BLM be given better healing magic so I can main heal on BLM too. Why should I be forced to switch to RDM or SCH or even WHM to heal better!

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Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Seriously... if you want to personally run up and thwack the mob, you have TWELVE JOBS to choose from that do that. Without getting laughed at.

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I swing a 98 base damage staff for up to 900 damage on a normal hit in Abyssea (550 outside). I get back 1500-2000 MP with my WS. No one but a bunch of trolls on a forum are laughing.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I swing a 98 base damage staff for up to 900 damage on a normal hit in Abyssea (550 outside). I get back 1500-2000 MP with my WS. No one but a bunch of trolls on a forum are laughing.

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DUDE THAT DAMAGE IS HUGE

not like I swing a 131 base damage GA for up to 1200 damage on a normal hit in abyssea (2200 crit, 4.5k double ODD crit) like, what, 900~2000 outside? I deal 9k with my WS.

hi guys.

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Originally Posted by Dallas

I swing a 98 base damage staff for up to 900 damage on a normal hit in Abyssea (550 outside). I get back 1500-2000 MP with my WS. No one but a bunch of trolls on a forum are laughing.

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I like how you talk like ODD procs are your normal swings. And you disregard the rate at which you can swing for that much damage. As well as how often you're going to miss, especially outside abyssea. And that you act like that damage will happen on anything with more than ~500 defense (being generous here...). And that you completely gloss over the fact that the twelve jobs I mentioned previously instead of "getting back MP" with their WS, "get 2000+ extra damage" even OUTSIDE abyssea. And that's with normal weapons.

oh, and if you're using that MP, you're slowing down your own attacks (significantly!), so getting back MP with the WS seems SO RELEVANT.

You do know how to divide by two, right? Get to work.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

Oh! You know what? I never thought about casting slowing down hits!

I like you Tagrineth.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

Oh! You know what? I never thought about casting slowing down hits!

I like you Tagrineth.

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Even the illiterate guy knows what I use my MP on. Hint: /SAM doesn't have any spells...