New SMN JA "Possession" Empowering the "Melee SMN"

[Panthera]

•Possible Avatar Possession characteristics

The carby one was perfect! I like the Garuda, Shiva and Ramuh ones, too!

[Sargent]

Going back to the JA in question. Bad idea. SE won't go within a million miles of it.
I'm a melee SMN to some extent myself, but you missed the plot by a mile. The whole idea of SMN is to use your avatars, not being "Possessed" by them. SE are already addressing the issue where SMN is too much of the "watch paint dry" job (even though it really isn't)

A new ability that expends an additional amount of MP to shorten the recast time for blood pacts.

If this is implimented, problem solved. MP is not an issue unless they make the amount of additional MP used something stupid like double BP cost. SE are not going to impliment anything that will a) create an "unbalance" in jobs, b) take massive resources into adjusting one job by a tiny bit, c) put strains on the hardware limitations of the PS2/PSV (remember, we have 10 levels of Job Adjustments, Spells, Avatars, Weapon Skills, Abilities, new Mob TP moves to put on the PS2 HDD). What your whole post is suggesting is that they turn Summoner into Necromancer. While I do want a "Dual Mode" for SMN, SE are already working on something like it.
Instead of suggesting bad ideas like this, you might want to actually unlock the job and play it for yourself so you can really see whats wrong with it and what isn't wrong with it.

[Karbuncle]

How is Infusing yourself with an Avatars power anything remotely close to Summoning Undead? (on your "It'd turn SMN into Necromancer" thing >_>)

Your other arguments seem intelligent though drowned up by obvious arrogance and hatred I can let that go (you should too! no fun being mad all the time). Still I don't think "PS2 limitations" is a good excuse either. We've gone up 15 levels, going up 9 more, adding dozens of new JA and JT, they have plenty of room left for PS2.

The only valid excuse you have is that it wouldn't really help the job as a whole, which i can concur with 100%.

While we agree, It wouldn't help SMN a lot. because its not the way the devs want to take the job. And while i would enjoy something like this as a FUN thing, It would not help SMN i the end and I don't think it would be a positive step for the job. In fact i think it might impact them negatively because one of their redeeming qualities (hateless, disposable DD) would be lost

[Reaux]

I like the whole idea. It would give SMN something else in it's arsenal and the possession does not even have to be limited to melee, they could be RA for some of these possessions too. Avatars like Ifrit and Fenrir are obvious for melee, but Carby and Ramuh would be sweet as ranged dmg of some type with a magic missile sort of attack.

I would like to see something LIKE this, maybe not identical to description, put in if only to see my characters appearance change. If anyone has played Guild Wars this reminds me of the Dervish ability to summon Avatar aspects.

[Sargent]

The reasoning behind the idea, I can understand. And like I said, SE are working on a solution to said idea. SE's vision of the job is effectively the same as Summoner in previous FF games, which on the most part, the playerbase agrees with. The summoner calls fourth avatars to assist his/herself in battle etc. The summoner at no point (exception: Terra in FF6, but she was born an Esper) becomes the Avatar/Eidolon/Esper themselves. They at no point incorperate any of the stats of any of their summoned pets. And like Summoners in previous FF games, Summoners can melee (any job can melee), but at no point do they become equal or greater melees then the aformentioned melee jobs (in newer FFs, see Garnet's melee vs Zidanes/Steiners, or Yuna's vs Tidus/Auron for example).

I understand the concept, I at no point mentioned summoning undead, mearly only saw the connection between the proposed JA and the Necromancer job in other MMOs. It sounds almost identical. As much as I do, on occasion melee as SMN when the sitation is feasible for me to do so, as a melee SMN, this JA will not help at all. SEs reaction to this is going to be "if you want to nuke, change to BLM, if you want to melee, change to WAR".

I would like to see SMN get access to higher tier attacks and pacts, and become a more active job. At this point, we simply do not know what Blood Pacts are being implimented, besides the assumption that Ramuh is getting a new Blood Pact: Ward at 92. As it is, if Summoner wants to nuke, we can already deal as much damage as a non-magian staff blm can with Heavenly Strike. If a Summoner wants to DD, Predator Claws still does very high numbers, both in and outside of Abyssea. In terms of Summoner actually dealing damage numbers, the job needs no adjustment. The speed in which we do damage is the only issue, which I mentioned SE have picked up on and are looking into adjusting. The summoner themselves are squishy, but since the majority of the time we are away from the mob, if we are soloing, we simply run further and put enough distance between the mob to safely resummon/siphon without getting hit, and if we do get hit, our support job will mitigate the damage. If we are meleeing, we either use a tank, or simply make the avatars our tanks. If this is a solo situation, the summoner should prepare themselves for when their avatar dies and apply the nessesary buffs. The job simply does not need an ability like this, and it is not within the job's nature to have an ability like this.

[Korpg]

(Yes I know it's way back)
I'm offended by your signature. "Real Summoners" play the job however they dang well please. Real Summoners also don't all wear wind staves and only use garuda.

Real Summoners are those who know how to utilize every square inch of what their job can do (even though no matter what they do, they still don't get respected for anything other than niche purposes or anything that is made beatable by Perfect Defense).

Stop kidding yourself into thinking because a couple of people were involved in a 2000 post thread about meleeing on SMN, that they don't know how to do anything else with the job.

Geeze, you can't take a joke, can you?

As stated in another thread, I didn't specify which staff to include on my signature (like it mattered anyway), but I'm glad that kingfury decided on a green staff to go with the green mage aspect (also, having green armor and a green background with a green avatar, kindof makes sense to use a green staff, don't you think?)

[Korpg]

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I agreed with your breakdown in the "Watch paint dry" thread when you said that weak melee doesn't really do much for the fight LLH, but this JA would elevate a SMN's melee and DoT to that of Moderate to High depending on how things could be coded and designed. If a SMN could use new powerful weapon skills at an increased rate that was either on par with or slightly stronger than their current BP rage numbers, and they could take hits due to them being paired with their Avatars, they would certainly gain their place up front with the other DDs.

They wouldn't just be an "Auto-attacking melee mage" at that point, they would be a true-to-life DD, capable of sustaining themselves and others while doing so to boot. They would do so all the while staying true to their job function as a SMN, just up front with the rest of the DDs.

Remember, they would technically "be the Avatar" so your fears of a "too weak mage" swinging a staff for low numbers wouldn't be directed at a SMN that is using this JA. The specific melee damage numbers would see proportionate increase based on the two entities' attacks being merged, not to mention the possible additional elemental effect damage per swing on top of that. Now if a BLM were up front whacking the monster and trying to nuke, that's where your frustrations would be directed! (no offense to the melee BLMs out there... I'm sure there's some somewhere)

You would still lose the avatar, which personally, I think that 100 (avatar melee hit) + 50 (SMN melee hit) is better than 75 (imbued SMN hit, because we all know that SE isn't going to give avatar damage to the SMN).

[kingfury]

Going back to the JA in question. Bad idea. SE won't go within a million miles of it.
I'm a melee SMN to some extent myself, but you missed the plot by a mile. The whole idea of SMN is to use your avatars, not being "Possessed" by them. SE are already addressing the issue where SMN is too much of the "watch paint dry" job (even though it really isn't)

If this is implimented, problem solved. MP is not an issue unless they make the amount of additional MP used something stupid like double BP cost. SE are not going to impliment anything that will a) create an "unbalance" in jobs, b) take massive resources into adjusting one job by a tiny bit, c) put strains on the hardware limitations of the PS2/PSV (remember, we have 10 levels of Job Adjustments, Spells, Avatars, Weapon Skills, Abilities, new Mob TP moves to put on the PS2 HDD). What your whole post is suggesting is that they turn Summoner into Necromancer. While I do want a "Dual Mode" for SMN, SE are already working on something like it.
Instead of suggesting bad ideas like this, you might want to actually unlock the job and play it for yourself so you can really see whats wrong with it and what isn't wrong with it.

How is Infusing yourself with an Avatars power anything remotely close to Summoning Undead? (on your "It'd turn SMN into Necromancer" thing >_>)

Your other arguments seem intelligent though drowned up by obvious arrogance and hatred I can let that go (you should too! no fun being mad all the time). Still I don't think "PS2 limitations" is a good excuse either. We've gone up 15 levels, going up 9 more, adding dozens of new JA and JT, they have plenty of room left for PS2.

The only valid excuse you have is that it wouldn't really help the job as a whole, which i can concur with 100%.

While we agree, It wouldn't help SMN a lot. because its not the way the devs want to take the job. And while i would enjoy something like this as a FUN thing, It would not help SMN i the end and I don't think it would be a positive step for the job. In fact i think it might impact them negatively because one of their redeeming qualities (hateless, disposable DD) would be lost

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To clear things up a bit in regards to the proposed JA, SMNs would still be "using their Avatars" while this JA is active. The players would still see the Avatars on top of their character and would still control the Avatars new Joint actions and spells. They would indeed be sacrificing their traditional safety of the spectator seat they're usually in to enjoy this new play style, but that's a fair trade off given the possible newfound potential to deal out nice damage numbers firsthand. It would be a trade off similar to using Berserk on WAR to deal higher melee damage, yet different due to the fact depending on which Avatar is possessed at the time(like Leviathan, or Carbuncle), the SMN could do both DD and self sustain themselves while using this JA.

However, they still would have the ability to use powerful spells from outside the direct battle range while this JA was in effect, just more control over new "Joint spells" birthed from the union of the two entities. SMN is in essence by design a hybrid job, so a player doesn't have to "change to BLM to nuke" or "change to War if you want to melee" since their Avatars encompass many sides of those play styles and more(support, healing, tanking, etc.). Though this JA's intensions may sound foreign for the job at 1st glance, it is at it's base a SMN summoning an Avatar to help them battle foes. The only difference is the location of which they summon the Avatar to do the fighting.

I've lvled SMN on my dual boxed Taru and understand the job just fine, though my biggest reason for leaving the job in the Mog house is that pet jobs are rather boring for me personally. Apparently, it's rather boring for a good number of folks as well based on some of the threads posted here. Which brings us to what this proposed JA is really all about. It's not "just about SMNs melee", though it would indeed empower them to do so, but rather it's about breathing some very new and exciting gameplay into the job that still is based on the core elements of the job to a degree.

I wouldn't say this JA had the potential to "hurt" the SMN job unless it wasn't designed and implemented properly. I do believe it would be fair to implement some risk for the SMN that chooses to use this JA, similar with what all frontline jobs have, but given the potential to master the new gameplay options that would be created from it, it could truly benefit the job by expanding it's potential beyond what is the status quo. The issue of dispersing of accumulated hate while using this JA could be solved by allowing the SMN to greatly reduced hate once the possessed Avatar is released. Allowing them the chance to retreat to the back lines of the battle and gather themselves while reverting back to "summon Avatar --» sit back and manage" mode should they need to. It all comes down to creative solutions that still balance out the effects.

[Alhanelem]

Geeze, you can't take a joke, can you?

As stated in another thread, I didn't specify which staff to include on my signature (like it mattered anyway), but I'm glad that kingfury decided on a green staff to go with the green mage aspect (also, having green armor and a green background with a green avatar, kindof makes sense to use a green staff, don't you think?)

I'd accept that explanation if not for the additional text below. "Real" players in general should do whatever they find works for them and who they're playing with. By calling yourself "Real" you're implying other people are not (I can think of *one* that isn't, but still )

Anyway..... I sort of like the concept behind the idea in this thread. If nothing else, its a creative/different idea that I haven't seen come up before. I think some credit is due for that, regardless of what you think of it. It would certainly be an interesting twist though.

[Covenant]

@king fury you could go SMN/DRK and absorb all stats now I think. With some DRK magic gear you could probably absorb at least +15 on most stats?

And No...avatars and summoner are meant to be separate beings not to mention possession has negative connotations to it.